Have you sinned?

footiam

Is there such a thing as 'sin' in Buddhism?

DhammaDhatu

There are 'transgressions'

footiam

And what are 'transgrssions'? Sins?

Cloud

Karmic actions (intentional thoughts, speech and actions) are either "skillful" or "unskillful" in quality, in relation to the goal of liberation. There's no true good or bad, right or wrong, except in relation such as this.

This is not simply for the awakening of one mind, but the non-suffering of all minds, and so skillful karma is aligned with ahimsa (non-violence). Breaking the precepts would be considered transgressions, especially where other life is harmed.

Basically these for lay practitioners:

#1. Refrain from the taking of life
#2. Refrain from taking that which is not given (theft)
#3. Refrain from lying or hurtful speech
#4. Refrain from sexual misconduct
#5. Refrain from intoxicating the mind, heedlessness

I hope this answers your question, @footiam.

footiam

There is no sin in Buddhism then.

Cloud

@footiam, Not in the way other religions regard sin as something punishable by a god/God(s), no. It's society and its laws that you have to answer for as far as punishment, and to yourself as far as your path of liberation.

laurajean

There is no sin in Buddhism then.

How do you conclude that after the five precepts above??

Here's a definition of sin. I'd say breaking these precepts would definitely mean there is sin in Buddhism, based on the definition of the word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sin

footiam

Dear laurajean,
It must be as Cloud said:Not in the way other religions regard sin as something punishable by a god/God(s)- which I think makes it less frightening. Or don't you think sin is frigtening when you get to burn in hell?

Cloud

It's still frightening enough IMO. You're responsible for yourself, and if you don't think and act wisely you'll suffer when things don't go your way! No one can change your mind for you, you have to choose to think, speak and act in a way that will bring non-suffering to yourself and others. You're responsible, no one to take the credit or the blame except yourself. That's scary, ain't it?

laurajean

I guess. But the definition of sin doesn't say anything about being punished by god or anyone else, doesn't mention burning in hell. I think we are putting a biblical perspective on this needlessly. In the definition it simply said: "a regrettable action, a transgression against a religious OR moral principal, a fault or offense, etc. It says nothing about punishment by a God.

So to me, breaking any of the five precepts would technically be a sin, wouldn't it? I don't typically use the word "sin", I think of it as "wrong conduct", but isn't it all the same?

How or even IF you are punished for your sins, whether it be by a God or through Karma, doesn't really matter to the original question, which was "Is there such a thing as sin in Buddhism?" I still say, yes.

Cloud

There's only skillful and unskillful, wholesome and unwholesome, related to liberation and non-harm.

It doesn't matter how the word "sin" is defined in a dictionary. At least here in the USA, sin is synonymous with religion, particularly Judaism/Christianity/Islam. Maybe in other parts of the world there's ambiguity, but when the word sin is used here, people automatically take it to mean "against God".

It's not a wise word to use in Buddhism, IMO. Too easy to be taken in the wrong way to Buddhist newbies as well as people not intimate with what Buddhism is all about, and that's the last thing we need.

federica

I prefer to use the word stumble.
After all, we're on a path, aren't we?
I stub my toes so many times, I think I need better shoes......

Cloud

Get some steel-toed ones.

federica

I think it's gonna take more than that to stop the discomfort.... Maybe I should just walk more mindfully and avoid the big stones.
Now there's an idea!

zenff

.... Maybe I should just walk more mindfully and avoid the big stones.
Now there's an idea!

That’s exactly the difference.
Breaking a moral rule in Buddhism is acknowledged as part of human existence. No one expects us to never make mistakes, and we are simply encouraged to learn from them.

In Christianity (the way I was brought up anyways) breaking a moral rule, even just once, makes our soul stained and intolerable in the eyes of God. Unless our sins are washed away and so on…

So I think in Buddhist religious notions there is:
- a more realistic expectation about human behavior
- better proportionality regarding the consequences of our actions
- reward for the good things we do
- room for improvement
Which makes even strict Buddhists appear lighthearted next to most Christians.

Roger

My two cents? If I were to have sinned I would have NOBODY to account to except MYSELF.

To me sin usually means you displeased "god." That's a very clumsy POV. That's why I don't like the term.

If I have to use the word "sin" and apply it to what I do? Then, for me, the word "sin" will be a 'syn'onym (HAHAHA) for "I made a mistake, I will meditate on it, and I will try very hard not to do it again."


Quick thought. For some Christians apparently, Hitler can go to Heaven by following some set of rules at the last minute before he dies. In Buddhism? you're "screwed." My cousin's church has a woman who is a thief. She keeps stealing from the parishoners! They keep forgiving her of her sins. WHAT DA?! I don't get it. I guess they talk to god and god says it's ok? Seriously. Not mocking.Not sure what a Buddhist Sangha would do with somebody like that; repeat offender.

genkaku

Everyone screws the pooch now and then. When we make a mistake, we do our best to acknowledge and correct it. That, as I understand it, is Buddhism. Self-flagellation compounds the error and is not necessary.

Mountains

And what are 'transgrssions'? Sins?

No. According to my dictionary a "sin" is a transgression against a divine law. Dharma is not divine law. It was not handed down by some angry old white guy with a beard and flowing robes who sits in the clouds.

Ada_B

It's still frightening enough IMO. You're responsible for yourself, and if you don't think and act wisely you'll suffer when things don't go your way! No one can change your mind for you, you have to choose to think, speak and act in a way that will bring non-suffering to yourself and others. You're responsible, no one to take the credit or the blame except yourself. That's scary, ain't it?

OTOH nothing is eternal - including a bad rebirth and there is always opportunity to learn and improve and do things better in future.

As a former fundamentalist Christian, believe me nothing is as scary as believing one little mistake (such as not having sufficiently sincere faith) could result in an eternity of suffering with no parole and no get-out.

Buddhism has been a massive relief to me.

compassionate_warrior

Is there such a thing as 'sin' in Buddhism?

There was a thread on sin in Buddhism and Christianity, fairly recently. There is sin in Buddhism, most Vajrayana texts I've read use the word "sin". But it doesn't carry the baggage that it does in Christianity. The basis for sin is very similar in both religions as well. Estrangement from God/estrangement from the ultimate nature of reality. This causes one to make "errors", i.e. to sin.

Ada_B

Is there such a thing as 'sin' in Buddhism?

There was a thread on sin in Buddhism and Christianity, fairly recently. There is sin in Buddhism, most Vajrayana texts I've read use the word "sin". But it doesn't carry the baggage that it does in Christianity. The basis for sin is very similar in both religions as well. Estrangement from God/estrangement from the ultimate nature of reality. This causes one to make "errors", i.e. to sin.

It depends on which version of Christianity. In Evangelical Prostestantism, the only way to overcome sin (and therefore hell) is faith in God. Which has to be a real "saving faith" and not just an attempt at self-preservation. With such a belief system, it doesn't matter how good you are, your best is never going to be good enough to save you from hell. Your only hope is that God will forgive you because of your faith.

Such beliefs assume that 'sin' is the natural tendency of human beings, not just an error caused by misunderstanding. Human beings are evil creatures whose only hope is to be saved by God.

To get away from such thinking, as a Buddhist, it is important to start seeing 'sin' as simply mistakes and ignorance, rather than your essential nature. Part of this is doing a 180 degree turn from seeing humans as naturally sinful, to seeing humans as essentially good but apt to get confused or mistaken. Including yourself.

I won't use the word 'sin', due to this background. Neither will I use the word 'God' (even in the metaphorical sense). To me their meanings are dark and sinister. I'd rather talk about ignorance, error or being misguided.

compassionate_warrior

*whew* Remind me not to go anywhere near Evangelical Protestantism, then! I can't imagine going through life believing that human beings (including my friends, relatives) were evil creatures incapable of redeeming themselves without divine interference. Thank you for the introduction to Evangelical Protestantism, Ada_B. It seems inherently samsaric.

twilly

Christianity has its good points. It can be a relief to know that God helps those who have faith in him to do the things that would be impossible without his help.

It also posits a clear beginning and end to all that is, all creation. This forward motion begun by the same God who will bring things to a close gives a sense of purpose to all life. It's more reassuring IMO than endless rounds of rebirth for most(?) humans.

Cinorjer

Is there such a thing as 'sin' in Buddhism?

No

A "sin" is a transgression of divine law. Buddhism has no divine laws. There is no such thing as sin in Buddhist teachings. Any mention of such is a mistranslation.

A sin is anything a God tells us we are not allowed to do, with the only necessary reason being "because I said so." To sin is to disobey and anger a God. That's all it is.

In Buddhism we have Precepts, vows, Truths, and observations on the nature of suffering and the human mind. We have no list of sins.

This has been easy answers to easy questions time. Hope this helps.

laurajean

There's only skillful and unskillful, wholesome and unwholesome, related to liberation and non-harm.

It doesn't matter how the word "sin" is defined in a dictionary. At least here in the USA, sin is synonymous with religion, particularly Judaism/Christianity/Islam. Maybe in other parts of the world there's ambiguity, but when the word sin is used here, people automatically take it to mean "against God".

With all due respect Cloud, I still disagree. Just because most Americans decide to interpret a word INCORRECTLY in a way that associates it with "God", doesn't make it an acceptable definition. Sin means just what it says in the dictionary: "a regrettable action, a transgression against a religious OR moral principal, a fault or offense, etc." That DOES apply to Buddhism. Most American NON-Buddhists I know think we worship Buddha and that he is a God; it's an extremely common misunderstanding that I constantly have to correct. We shouldn't not meditate with a Buddha statue just because "most" people interpret it wrong and think we're worshipping a God, right?; that's their misunderstanding and their ignorance. We know better.

It's not a wise word to use in Buddhism, IMO. Too easy to be taken in the wrong way to Buddhist newbies as well as people not intimate with what Buddhism is all about, and that's the last thing we need.

I DO agree that it's not the best choice of vocabulary in Buddhist practice, and I agree that newbies might misunderstand the meaning. But it's their duty as an adult (presumably) to look up the meanings of words and get a full understanding of what they are learning about. I have never used the word "sin" in my practices, but I still think it is technically correct.

compassionate_warrior

I think it's time we purged the word "sin" of its Christian baggage and saw it just for what it is:

"a regrettable action, a transgression against a religious OR moral principal, a fault or offense, etc."

Those who are uncomfortable with the word can practice non-attachment/non-aversion and work on seeing it from a more neutral perspective. It's not a big deal. Just because Christians fall into the trap of buying into all the fear, fire-and-brimstone, etc. that's associated with it, doesn't mean we have to. It's their baggage, not ours.

Cloud

@laurajean, Don't fret over disagreeing with me, my opinion's no weightier than yours, I'm just making it clear what my opinion is. It doesn't matter what a word is defined as in some book, people get their definitions from their culture, their society. Anyone I know in real life would equate sin with God, and so it's unskillful as Buddhist lingo (which I know you agree with). Throw out your dictionary, no one's reading it! The Abrahamic religions make up a whole lot of people, and sin's their thing. They own it. It's their birthright and their burden. They've got the original sin, ours would only be an imitation. That's all I got to say about that.

Roger

Maybe we should say it like, "Sin ___against___ so-and-so."

You can commit a 'sin' against some believed-in godhead or you can commit a 'sin' against the grass in your backyard by not cutting it.

When somebody says, "It's a sin!" Now I might come back quickly with, "Yes..., go on..., 'It's a sin' *against* WHAT?"

IOW, In order to avoid being a "religion-ist," the word sin should always be followed with the preposition "against."

Without specifying what the action is a sin against it assumes somebody's concept of god is involved. That's bad religion-ist thinking.

laurajean

Maybe we should say it like, "Sin ___against___ so-and-so."

You can commit a 'sin' against some believed-in godhead or you can commit a 'sin' against the grass in your backyard by not cutting it.

When somebody says, "It's a sin!" Now I might come back quickly with, "Yes..., go on..., 'It's a sin' *against* WHAT?"

IOW, In order to avoid being a "religion-ist," the word sin should always be followed with the preposition "against."

Without specifying what the action is a sin against it assumes somebody's concept of god is involved. That's bad religion-ist thinking.

That's an interesting point Roger. One could say "I've committed a sin against myself and my beliefs" or "I've committed a sin by not practicing right action" etc.

compassionate_warrior

It's unskillful as Buddhist lingo only if you're talking to a Christian about Buddhism. :rolleyes: And the Abrahamic religions don't "own" sin. They may own their version of the word, but the basic concept has been around since long before they were. Sure, when I first heard it in Buddhist texts, I thought it was an unfortunate translation. But when I learned its true meaning, it really helped me understand both the Buddhist and the Christian concepts, and divest the word of its baggage. So now, in my mind, all it means is "error".

finding0

All simply just is. It is because it is. All is awarness. All else is the thought of this awarness, a dream.Its all an illusion. a "sin" is just another part of this dream that comes from opinion and perspective. It will fade. it is of the ever changing form. All that is truth is that which never changes

footiam

Dear Cloud,
So it is frightening. Responsibility is such a big burden that it makes us frightened.

Dear laurajean,
Everything depends on the definition then. I wonder if the word ‘sin’ can be found in Buddhist literature.

Dear federica,
So, the question should be, “Have you stumbled? Is there such thing as ‘stumbling’ in Buddhism?
And the answer could be: Yes. I have sinned. There is such thing as sinning in Buddhism.

Dear zenff,
There is making mistakes in Buddhism then. No sinning. No staining of the soul since there is no soul?

Dear Roger,
I suppose that’s why Buddha said to rely on oneself and be responsible.
For a thief who steals again and again, I wonder too what the Sangha will do. Ask the thief to reap what he has sown perhaps- If a person breaks the donation box, then he ought to take the money! (Just kidding!) or whatever there is inside. There may be a can of worm. Then, of course, the Sangha doesn’t have to do anything. There must be a can of worms somewhere in the form of negative karma.

Dear genkaku,
Screwing is not sinning, I mean, screwing up.

Dear Mountains,
Thanks Mountains. Sinning has to do with the divine then!

Dear Ada_B,
Buddhism is a relief because you are mindful.


Dear compassionate_warrior,
I haven’t come across the texts you mentioned. I wonder what ‘sin’ is in Tibetan.

Dear twilly,
I do agree that Christianity is good for people who needs a crutch.

Thanks Dear Cinorjer!
That’s very clear. Is there a Tibetan word for ‘sin’?

Dear compassionate_warrior,
Is it okay to say: I have sinned because I was late for school?

Dear finding0,
That is so profound, but 'all that is' should not be a sin.

federica

Dear federica,
So, the question should be, “Have you stumbled? Is there such thing as ‘stumbling’ in Buddhism?
And the answer could be: Yes. I have sinned. There is such thing as sinning in Buddhism.

No.
Because there's nothing wrong with stumbling. I'm not ashamed of it, I don't feel guilty, and my remorse is constructive, not self-defeating.

Cinorjer

Footiam: There are Tibetan and Sanscrit words that are sometimes translated as "sin" but translating between languages is a funny thing, full of "well, it's approximately the same meaning" type things. For instance, I cringe when I read some well meaning scholars talk about how "according to Tibetan teaching, the cardinal sins of Buddhism are lust, greed, and stupidity". That's not what they say at all. The word used is actually "poison". The translators looked at the similarity to the Catholic "mortal sins" list and assumed too much.

Steeped in Christianity, the translators equate sin with immorality when the Sutras talk about the subject. Sin isn't just an immoral act. Sin isn't just an evil act. Sin is an act that a God disapproves of. None of that in Buddhism.

Dakini

The word "sin" carries all these connotations only in Christianity. In an Eastern context, it doesn't. See laurajean's definition above: a transgression against a moral principle", or CW's as an "error". Like when your mind wanders in meditation; you don't beat yourself up about it, you just bring it back to the breath. Same with making an error; you acknowledge where you went wrong and redirect your efforts, moving on. No guilt or shame. Only learning from your mistake.

footiam

Thanks federica,
There is no sinning in Buddhism.

Dear Cinorjer,
I gather then that it is the translator who has sinned. Perhaps, they are trying to make one religion the other.

Dear Dakini,
Mountains has a different definition: transgression against a divine law. Is a moral principle divine?

Dakini

"Is moral principle divine?" Why would it be? Unless you believe in a divine being or beings.

compassionate_warrior

Dear compassionate_warrior,
Is it okay to say: I have sinned because I was late for school?

No. Read my first post. A "sin" in Buddhism is an error in judgement committed because one has lost the connection with the true nature of reality. So your being late for school example is a more mundane mistake. Stealing, on the other hand, is usually done because of attachment to material things, or due to a need for status or other egoistic reasons. So due to a lack of understanding that material things are empty, one deludedly grasps at them. That's a different class of error.

footiam

Dear Dakini,
Now, I wonder if there is anything divine in this world.

Thanks compassionate_warrior,
Commiting an error is not a sin then.

compassionate_warrior

Thanks compassionate_warrior,Commiting an error is not a sin then.

It depends on the nature of the error.

Dakini

Dear Dakini,
Now, I wonder if there is anything divine in this world.

Why would there be? Are you a Christian, or a theist of some sort? Divinity isn't part of the Buddhist worldview. Or...is it? That could be the subject of an interesting thread of its own.

twilly

Dear twilly,
I do agree that Christianity is good for people who needs a crutch.

I was trying to follow the Buddha's instructions to his disciples not to tear down others beliefs.

Also we should consider that the concept of "no self" indicates that the boundaries between ourselves and others are not fixed. Ergo if we hurt others, we hurt ourselves.

footiam

Dear compassionate_warrior,
What kind of error would be considered sinful?

Dear Dakini,
Yes. Why should there be? Thanks!

Dear twilly,
I think there is a misunderstanding here. It's good to have a crutch.

compassionate_warrior

Dear compassionate_warrior,
What kind of error would be considered sinful?.

Hi, footiam. I explained that in two earlier posts. Errors that result from decisions based on a lack of understanding/estrangement from the true nature of reality equate with the Buddhist concept of "sin".

Jeffrey

Its how we relate to mistakes that matters. We are going to make them. So we attend to them. Let them be. Then as vision arises we see how to get around. Simultaneious?

footiam

Thanks compassionate_warrior,
Couldn't understand the relationship between that error and sin. Hope that's not a sin though.

Dear Jeffrey,
Is this what you mean -How we relate to mistakes will make us sinners or non-sinners.

Cloud

@footiam, If the word sin is used at all to mean even the smallest unskillful action, we all sin constantly... but that's not what we "are", it's what we do. We'll continue to sin (make mistakes) until we've divested ourselves of all ignorance of how the mind and all phenomena work, and have perfected Right View (come to a supramundane understanding of the teachings, become unfettered entirely, liberated).

How we relate to mistakes makes us either practicing Right Effort or not! Right Effort is abandoning the unwholesome and cultivating the wholesome, it's the active part of our practice that learns from and corrects our mistaken views and actions.

footiam

Dear Cloud,
As it is, there should be no such thing as sinning in Buddhism. Sinning is a foreign concept in Buddhism.

compassionate_warrior

Only sin in the Christian sense is foreign to Buddhism, IMO. The word "sin" doesn't have to be a big deal. Any negative or judgmental connotation is in the mind. The word itself is neutral. Except when Christians use it, haha.
What does "sinning" mean to you, footiam?

Cloud

@footiam, I agree that the word sin isn't the best to use for Buddhism, too many people would misunderstand it or relate to it as Judaism/Christianity/Islam use the term. However if it is used, it's no different than "unskillful karma".

federica

There is much in Buddhism that is arguable, due to semantics or translation difficulties...

Is Buddhism a Religion or a Philosophy?
Is it 'Dhukka', 'suffering', 'stress', or 'unsatisfactoriness'?
Is it 'rebirth' or 'reincarnation'?
Are the different Realms, real, or allegorical?

The bottom line is that ultimately, we must view these things in our own way, and come to our own conclusion, gathering together all relevant information, feedback, research and current knowledge.
So does 'sin' exist in Buddhism?
Depends.
On you.

If you think it does, then it does.
If you don't think it does, then you don't think it does.

Is 'Sin' the right word?

Yes.

or

No.

Up to you.