Are we mad?

hermitwin

We seem reasonable enough living our own lives. Yet collectively
we are destroying the planet.
Americans spend $10.3 billion pa on their pets
while babies starve to death in poor countries. USA spend $700 bil on defence
while poor people have no clean water to drink.
Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy.
We all contribute to these madness. And USA is not the only culprit.

hermitwin

Is our modern way of life consistent with Buddhist principles?

Roger

Humans have overpopulated. What did they think was going to happen?

It's simple mathematics. Who didn't see this coming?

Oh well..., there's bountiful life (not only biologically-based) in an infinity of universes.

SherabDorje

Look up the Hopi concept of Koyannisqatsi. I don't condone P2P file downloading, but there's a movie trilogy by that name, produced by Geoffrey Reggio with a musical score by Phillip Glass. It's way cool, and goes directly to the point you're making. "Life out of balance", "a way of living that cannot be allowed to continue"- those are rough translations of the concept.

zombiegirl

Humans have overpopulated. What did they think was going to happen?

It's simple mathematics. Who didn't see this coming?

Oh well..., there's bountiful life (not only biologically-based) in an infinity of universes.

apparently, the population is falling though.

my mother's personal beliefs were to have two or less children to replace her and my father when they passed. she has held firm to this belief and taught me this as well to keep from contributing to overpopulation. the other day i received a letter from the government regarding my social security benefits. it had a section that was labeled, "Will Social Security still be around when I retire?" and within this section it states, "Because people are living longer and the birth rate is low, the ratio of workers to beneficiaries is falling." and goes on to state that by 2037, people will receive $760 for every $1,000 in benefits scheduled.

it was curious to me because my mother had taught me this so long ago, and of course, it makes sense on a social (perhaps not political) level to decrease population when thinking about natural resources. i'm sure it is a fact, but it still shocked me nonetheless to read and i had to wonder if it was perhaps a push by the government to have us produce more babies, lol. it seems an odd thing to say when we can't even take care of the people we have now. you talk about babies starving to death in poor countries, people starve to death in the USA as well. my state has very harsh winters and the homeless freeze and starve to death yearly, you just rarely hear about it is all.

my opinion is that society in general has a mixed up list of priorities. with "me and mine" topping every list. many in the government still oppose national health care and financial aid, yet they want us to produce more people because they are likely to get jobs and pay in money via social security/taxes, which turns around into more money for the government.

this is a big picture, but i think what is more important is the small picture. everyone simply looks at the small ego-based "me and mine" when considering what to spend their money on. i could talk about the government at length, but the truth is that this effects every one of us. i could do without video games and movies and hell, this computer even, but i work hard and i feel entitled to it, therefore i buy it. it is much harder to get to the point where you can understand that each video game i purchase could feed another human being for a week (or a month even). or rather, maybe i should say that the hard part is getting to the point where i feel no loss by donating money instead of spending money on myself. perhaps this is the beauty of buddhism, that it makes us think about what real necessity is and whether or not these things that society tells us we need and want are truly important.

but to answer your question... no, i don't think our modern way of life is consistent with buddhist principles, unless we determine to make it so.

DhammaDhatu

Is our modern way of life consistent with Buddhist principles?

Yes. The Buddha taught all beings are born with ignorance and only a few develop the insight to fly free of the net.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.13.budd.html

aMatt

Is our modern way of life consistent with Buddhist principles?

Yes, of course... one might even say that people are a continual expression of buddhist principles, no matter what their choices and reactions are.

zombiegirl

Is our modern way of life consistent with Buddhist principles?

Yes, of course... one might even say that people are a continual expression of buddhist principles, no matter what their choices and reactions are.

this is confusing to me. how could selfish motives be considered an expression of buddhist principles?

Roger

Look up the Hopi concept of Koyannisqatsi. I don't condone P2P file downloading, but there's a movie trilogy by that name, produced by Geoffrey Reggio with a musical score by Phillip Glass. It's way cool, and goes directly to the point you're making. "Life out of balance", "a way of living that cannot be allowed to continue"- those are rough translations of the concept.

Yes. :thumbsup: Most excellent films: http://www.koyaanisqatsi.org/

I remember the exact nights, who I was with and what I was doing when I saw each of them.

Also check out "Baraka: http://www.spiritofbaraka.com/

Dakini

Is our modern way of life in accord with Buddhist principles? Depends on how you choose to live. Live mindfully, and you can avoid waste and overconsumption. Interconnectedness means that your decision whether or not to buy a car (if you're in an urban area with public transportation) takes into account the complete ruin and poisoning of the ecosystems and homes of people around the world who live near oil extraction (Ecuadoran and Brazilian Amazon, the Niger Delta, etc. etc.) Do you buy plastic? Do you use plastic bags, or re-use them if you have them, or just throw them away? Plastic is made from petrochemicals. Do you use a clothesdryer? Any appliance that generates heat is a huge consumer of, here in the US, usually coal, sometimes hydropower. Living mindfully can bring one closer to living in accordance with Buddhist principles.

Dakini

Human beings are capable of creating heaven on earth. But greed (including corporate greed), lack of mindfullness, and to some extent inertia keep us stuck in samsara, trashing the earth. It would be very easy to pass ordinances in much of the country requiring that new architecture be passive or active solar design. Parts of Europe are way ahead of us in this regard.

aMatt

this is confusing to me. how could selfish motives be considered an expression of buddhist principles?

Because selfishness has a cause and an effect. I find that the principle teaching of Buddhism is that of action and consequence, not moralistic direction about making specific decisions. One might learn to walk a certain way to avoid certain results, but all of those that don't are still working within the observations described by the four noble truths.

pegembara

"Monks, I will teach you craving: the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations. Listen well, and I will speak."

Craving
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.199.than.html

pineblossom

Let's get real. The looming global crisis has nothing to do with climate or overpopulation. It has everything to do with the top 2% of the population demanding that they are allowed every tax benefit they can dictate to the various parliaments. This group of people have no compunction about holding a gun at the head of the legislators warning them if they don't do as they are told - bang! It seems there is no one game enough to stand up to this group.

I am waiting for the non-violent revolution to sweep the US. It will happen.

FreeofwantWdumean

To be honest it doesn't bring enough of us to tears. I want to dedicate my life to writing, I just don't know if it will sell, anti-war literature. What we can do is find a way to CHANGE things, the news the media reports nothing but what sells as a drama, nothing to change the problems they report. A world order would abolish war I don't understand why it works, if there are 10 people in a room and 1 wants to destroy another, I believe full heartedly the other 9 would morally agree to not let that happen, such a simple principle yet it doesn't work in the world to keep us from killing each other. We've come as far as having a space station! yet we NEED NUCLEAR WEAPONS as a means to protect land separated by imaginary lines, and principles valued by petty decisions, leaders not even valuing basic human need. I just don't understand how it's possible. So there is a problem, the all mighty dollar? Pride and a unquenchable thirst for power? I think money.. it's what's killing people all around the world, how can we stop this? By liberating ourselves from needed Cadillac escalades, back to more of a focus on Function! No more diamond rings, just marriage? give the diamonds to the starving so they can eat for 3 years, its not hard to weigh the scale. I'm a hypocrite, but why am I a hypocrite by saying these things, why are we all hypocrites, again the earthly bound god $.

cavs12

@FreeofwantWdumean.
I think money.. it's what's killing people all around the world, how can we stop this?

Is money killing people or is greed?

hermitwin

The world population is still growing at an alarming rate. The poorest countries has the highest population growth. Rich countries like Japan & Germany has low birth rates.
Are the rich nations willing to help the poor?
We need more people like Warren Buffet. He is giving all his money to charity.
Nationalism is just glorified tribalism. I long for the day when we can think beyond national borders.

Vincenzi

Is our modern way of life consistent with Buddhist principles?

no. one example: nekkhamma is "the pleasure of renunciation". in buddhism this leads to happyness, in "the west" it is the other way.

SherabDorje

(tried to upload a picture and couldn't do it- sorry...)

Palzang

Last weekend we had a Hopi indian with his two sons visit our stupa in Sedona and sing for Khenpo Tenzin Norgay who was in town. It was quite an experience. This Hopi man is one of the few left who still practice the old ways of Hopi, living in balance. Most of the Hopi these days have forgotten the old ways and are living out of balance, threatening the very existence of the tribe. Already most of the clans have disappeared, forever (clan membership is passed down matrilinealy - from the mother - in Hopi). So they face the same problems as the rest of human society. Efforts to return to the old ways of living in balance are usually met with hostility and worse. It was a good lesson for all of us. There are also Hopi prophecies about what will happen to the earth if we continue in our ways, and they aren't at all pleasant. Can it be turned around? Can we all learn to live in balance? I don't know. What do you think? If we don't, humans are likely to become an endangered or extinct species sooner than we think.

Palzang

cavs12

While I agree with this post that the world has some serious issues
I just don't understand the attitude that its because the world has
"changed" this way. There have always been terrible wars anger
and unjustice. There have always been extreme poverty and evil.
This isn't a new world condition. Maybe trying to take things back
into the past isn't the answer.

yiming

We seem reasonable enough living our own lives. Yet collectively
we are destroying the planet.

If we are destroying the planet collectively, then each of us, in living his own life, is contributing to the destruction. In what way are own lives reasonable?
I have a dog. Is that reasonable? Yes because I can afford it.
Babies starve to death in poor countries. Is that reasonable? No, poor people cannot afford to have babies.
USA spends $700 billion on defense. Is that reasonable? Yes because Americans can afford it.
Poor people have no clean water to drink. Is that reasonable? No, incapable people cannot run their own country and must face result of their own incompetence.
5% of world population (Americans) consumes 24% of world energy. Is that reasonable? Yes because Americans not only can afford it.

Buddha taught us how to end suffering by living a reasonable way of life. Americans do not suffer because they are living a reasonable way of life. Poor people suffer because they are not living by Buddhist principles.

hermitwin

'There have always been extreme poverty and evil'. Well, No. Just look at how indigenous people like the tribes in Amazon forest and Sahara live. An old man in Sahara said we would never cut down a tree because it takes decades for a tree to grow. They only take wood from dead trees.
Respect for nature was primary.
We are cutting down forests/trees just to make paper that we throw away after printing
some words on it.

hermitwin

'Americans do not suffer because they are living a reasonable way of life. Poor people suffer because they are not living by Buddhist principles.'
USA is the only developed country in the world with no universal healthcare.
Consumption of illicit drugs is causing drug wars in Mexico.
Karma, your actions affect others. What goes around comes around.
Karma; you dont get away with nothing as Robina Courtin , tibetan monk would put it.

cavs12

@hermitwin. While I understand what you are saying I am speaking in a general sense.
At the same time of those tribes in the amazon wars over religion power and greed were
going on. And it is unfair to the say that the world was a perfect place in the past.
I think it is important to recognize and honor tribes like that as we go into the future.
In my opinion with everything in Egypt and Lybia people are taking a stand against injustice
and trying to create a better world. But I think having the attitude that the world is so evil now
isn't a fair idea to have. It is a beautiful place, with some very obvious flaws. But I believe this is the
best time period to live in in the history of civilization, and we have the chance to create something beautiful.

hermitwin

'Is that reasonable? Yes because Americans not only can afford it.' No. USA owes China $1 trillion which it will never be able to pay back.

hermitwin

You can have your opinion. But if we dont change our ways, our grandchildren
will have to walk around in oxygen masks.

cavs12

To be honest I do feel a change. I guess that is where our
opinions differ. I feel that slowly our country and the world
has started to realize this and is in an effort towards positive
change. And yes more should be done. But in my heart I think
there are a lot of people like you and me that want to see this
positive change, and I do believe that things are going to get better

yiming

USA owes China $1 trillion which it will never be able to pay back.

Not true. China holds approx. USD 800 billion of US Treasuries and that amounts to only 20% of US debt in foreign hands. Just because America has debts doesn't mean she is poor. The US has tremendous earning power.

hermitwin

Simple maths, if you spend more than you earn, you CANT repay your debts. Doesnt matter how much you earn.
Total revenue $2.381 trillion (estimated)
Total expenditures $3.552 trillion (estimated)
Deficit $1.171 trillion (estimated)
Debt $14.078 trillion (estimated)

DhammaDhatu

Karma; you dont get away with nothing as Robina Courtin , tibetan monk would put it.

Robina is an extremist. Her views on karma come close to bullying.

DhammaDhatu

We are cutting down forests/trees just to make paper that we throw away after printing some words on it.

You sound morally outraged. This sort of outrage is not liberation. The Buddha taught the world simply follows causes & conditions, which is mere suchness (tathata). What is happening is just ordinary (dhammatithata).

compassionate_warrior

Moral outrage that motivates taking action to bring about positive change and move humanity forward isn't a bad thing. If everything is viewed as ordinary, complacency takes over.

The US has tremendous earning power.

Used to have tremendous earning power. With the demise of the manufacturing sector and the rise of the minimum-wage service economy, the days of tremendous earning power are over, unless things change.

compassionate_warrior

Last weekend we had a Hopi indian with his two sons visit our stupa in Sedona and sing for Khenpo Tenzin Norgay who was in town. It was quite an experience. This Hopi man is one of the few left who still practice the old ways of Hopi, living in balance. Most of the Hopi these days have forgotten the old ways and are living out of balance, threatening the very existence of the tribe. Already most of the clans have disappeared, forever (clan membership is passed down matrilinealy - from the mother - in Hopi). So they face the same problems as the rest of human society. Efforts to return to the old ways of living in balance are usually met with hostility and worse. It was a good lesson for all of us. There are also Hopi prophecies about what will happen to the earth if we continue in our ways, and they aren't at all pleasant. Can it be turned around? Can we all learn to live in balance? I don't know. What do you think? If we don't, humans are likely to become an endangered or extinct species sooner than we think.

Palzang

I've learned to be cautious about whom I accept as an authority or "traditional elder" from Hopi. Charlatans abound. The younger Hopis I know are very much living according to the traditional values--working in solar electrification, for example, or producing art, and growing their own food, even those living in urban environments.

finding0

It simply just is

DaltheJigsaw

mithril

I have a dog. Is that reasonable? Yes because I can afford it.

The dog you have might be one of many whose food was made by people who work for a wage that will always keep them poor. They might have come from a background where they had a hard time going to school because their family was poor. Their family might have been poor because their ancestors were slaves at one point, maybe you or your family bought products that came from and upstream village, causing a diminishing stream of water and drought in the place those people may have lived. Maybe they had to buy plain water at a greater cost they could sell their own work for.
There might have been a war where their family came from, maybe they were against the war, but still forced to fight; or maybe they cared for a sick relative for a great part of their life.

Point is, you might be able to afford something, but you are not in any way more worthy of getting it then the next person. Nobody is more entitled to get a dog than any one else is of getting another baby, or SUV, or whatever.

But do i have a dog? Yes i do. I like to have a dog, thats why i got one. Did i know that it will be bad for the environment? Yes. I do not say it is a good or evil choice. I do not know. I do know i love it more than a dying poor child whom i do not know. Blame me. I'm not saying it out of hate. I know i don't have to say it even, my actions are there to announce and prove it. As are everyone else's.

What our civilization has got itself into is a complex problem. Expecting that everyone will go and live back under a tree will not work, we cannot undo what we did, we will have to find a new solution. (or any other "lets travel to the past" option.)

It is in our nature to point at what we think is the cause. It was the bad wolf who killed our sheep. It is the jews who are suffocating our economy. It is you who is preventing our communication. It is you who should have come up with a solution. It is poor people having kids. It is -

It is never us, because there are to many outside reasons to blame.

Do i know the solution to this problem? No.

Is it important to find the solution? I say yes.

But it is such a complex problem, that i'm guessing, since everyone is basically ignoring it, that we will not find the solution, but it will instead be made for us.

The poor will starve, die of disease that could be cured or prevented, those who are rich, or in a favorable environment, will live. Not because anyone is better, prettier, more adapted, more shiny, has more fur, whatever, but simply because of chance (= hard to tell why "them", or "us", not anyone else).

A kind of very complex russian roulette: some are living in a place where bullets are plenty. Some where guns are really unheard of.

Oh, wait, really, all that is already happening. Did i say we had to find a solution?

Roger

Point is, you might be able to afford something, but you are not in any way more worthy of getting it then the next person. Nobody is more entitled to get a dog than any one else is of getting another baby, or SUV, or whatever.

[edited]
The poor will starve, die of disease that could be cured or prevented, those who are rich, or in a favorable environment, will live. Not because anyone is better, prettier, more adapted, more shiny, has more fur, whatever, but simply because of chance (= hard to tell why "them", or "us", not anyone else).

Hi mithril. I like what you are saying in your whole post generally. I edited it and show the above quotes because I'm a little confused. Seriously, I'm not being a jerk (hopefully that's obvious) in having the following issue/question:

I was thinking the reason some people have an easy life, even though they presumably worked for it and got paid extremely handsomely, but the reason they enjoy material luxuries was a result of their accumulated good Kharma.



If so, it's difficult to judge and hard to understand why some people (or even IF!) some people actually **enjoy** more comfort and ease given by APPARENT material advantages.

cavs12

are you saying that anyone who owns a dog loves there dog more than a dying child?

hermitwin

I dont think Robina is extremist. Anyone else care to comment?

hermitwin

If a puppy costs $50, would you buy the puppy or give it to a starving boy?
We can comfortably live in our own world until we see what is going on in places where there is extreme suffering and that we have the power to alleviate a fellow man's suffering.

Roger

If a puppy costs $50, would you buy the puppy or give it to a starving boy?

No fair IMO. People should STFU (F="frick") about how other people should spend their money. No positive justfication for inoculating people with a guilt virus.

I learned: There's no guilt in Buddhism.

Forgive me if I over-reacted (which I might have just done). OK, I'm taking a break now... . Later.

hermitwin

How about a dose of compassion?

shanyin

I don't have a problem with the OP's post.

How much can money save the problem I wonder?

When you give to say Christians childrens fund what kind of difference are we making?

Money sucks

compassionate_warrior

If a puppy costs $50, would you buy the puppy or give it to a starving boy?

I'm definitely against giving puppies to starving boys!

yiming

The dog you have might be one of many whose food was made by people who work for a wage that will always keep them poor.

My dog's food is made by me. It's not bought from the supermarket. Can I keep my puppy now?

yiming

The dog you have might be one of many whose food was made by people who work for a wage that will always keep them poor.

My dog's food is made by me. It's not bought from the supermarket. Can I keep my puppy now?

cavs12

I saved my dog from the humane society, and am involved in multiple
organizations to helping children across the world. but to you that means
I love my dog more than other children? I think there is a sense of judgement in that
statement. While we all want and try to create positive change in the world your idea comes from
a lack of abundance. You are saying money either goes to the dog or a child. There is enough food produced
in the world for everyone to be comfortably well. The problem is so much food is wasted. Maybe the distribution of
money isnt the answer?

hermitwin

After a long deliberation, I have decided that you can keep your dog. Just dont feed it to the starving boy.

hermitwin

Abundance? The earth has limited resources. Be kind, leave some for future generations.

cavs12

I think that you are being a little unfair and judgmental about this scenario.
If someone buys a chair does that mean they love a chair more than a starving child?
your logic is flawed.