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Ultimate reality?

Now-Is-realityNow-Is-reality
edited March 2011 in Philosophy
However pertinent or not I would have to assert the possibility of an ultimate reality. (I word this not as fact and would love any input or ideas!)

I would say that ultimate reality is border line on more so being the true nature of things and thus the ultimate reality as I have come to think of it can be found when not looking at the world with eyes of ego and self, thus ultimately this reality would be the world with enlightenment, the world as it really is.
It is the mind that creates duality and thus a separation of ideas. From the idea of self there is phenomena that arise and that people define the world with (of course being the 5 skandhas or aggregates) , however there is no true separation between our perceived reality and the ultimate reality, for if there was that would imply duality with what is and what really isn't, but what is rather delusion. Thus, from this then if the subjective reality wasn't separate from what is, that would mean that it is instead a variation on the ultimate reality, which means subjective reality is the ultimate reality... however our eyes are still closed.
So if there was no separation and our eyes were closed to the fact that we already are one with the ultimate reality (and hence forth enlightenment to realize), and that we just not realized this nature... then that would reinforce the idea that everyone is already enlightened (or as a buddha-nature) but they just have not realized it yet.

Just some ideas, again it probably isn't pertinent in any other regards than if it is people that create duality and thus there is ultimately no separation than reality just is... and just isn't. There is and isn't an ultimate reality, but rather any separation is caused by an ego.

Comments

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    Everyone is already it (an aspect of reality), but realizing it as well as seeing what that reality is... is another story. That's why we have the path. :)
  • Now-Is-realityNow-Is-reality
    Everyone is an aspect of reality, a variation as I said... however the path is simply being what you already are. Looking at things without an ego, maybe you need a path to do that, but I think the idea of needing to "journey" to get where you're already at can distract a bit from your true nature.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited March 2011
    The thing is that conditioning (from ignorance) leads us far away from seeing reality as it is, so as far as we're away from it... we have to journey back toward it. We have to re-condition our minds, apply skillful means to getting back on track. It's just getting the mind seeing things as they are, instead of clinging to views out of ignorance and desire.

    We have the capability to think of anything we want, and this is where our problem is, because of craving in ignorance we think in ways that bring us suffering. It's within our ability to correct that. :)
  • DisneyDisney
    The true essence of all the Great Vehicle (Mahayana) scriptures is Absolute Reality (Real Mark) itself. What is Absolute Reality? It is the Pure Mind of sentient Beings. This mind is not inside, not outside, and not in between. It is not past, not present, and not future. It is not green or yellow or red or white, long or short or square or round. It is not a scent, not a flavor, not a texture, not a mental object. When we search for it, we cannot find it, but we cannot say it does not exist. It creates all worlds and all realms, but we cannot say it exists. It is detached from conditioned thoughts and discriminations, from all words and characteristics, but conditioned thoughts and discriminations and worlds and characteristics do not have any separate identity apart from it.

    Essentially, absolute reality is detached from all characteristics, but merged with all phenomena. Being detached from characteristics, it is formless, and being merged with all phenomena, it gives them all their forms. For lack of an alternative, we impose on it the name "absolute reality" [i.e., Mind, Real Mark, Buddha Nature].
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Looking at things without an ego, maybe you need a path to do that, but I think the idea of needing to "journey" to get where you're already at can distract a bit from your true nature.
    _____________________________________


    Now-is-reality -- There is just no escaping it ... in order to actualize the truth, we have to investigate and honestly enter into the lies. There is no other choice. Hence, Buddhism.
  • YahooSeriousYahooSerious
    Unless this is part of a deeper Buddhist question of some sort beynd my understanding, it seems like one could apply the broad term of "science" within the definition of ultimate reality that reflects "the true nature of thigs". The admitedly nonspiritual process of exploring reality, I.e. science, has led modern society to define reality as the body of facts that we can all independently confirm. The search for the "Ultimate" reality is an ongoing endeavor for mankind (Buddhist or not).
  • Now-Is-realityNow-Is-reality
    The true essence of all the Great Vehicle (Mahayana) scriptures is Absolute Reality (Real Mark) itself. What is Absolute Reality? It is the Pure Mind of sentient Beings. This mind is not inside, not outside, and not in between. It is not past, not present, and not future. It is not green or yellow or red or white, long or short or square or round. It is not a scent, not a flavor, not a texture, not a mental object. When we search for it, we cannot find it, but we cannot say it does not exist. It creates all worlds and all realms, but we cannot say it exists. It is detached from conditioned thoughts and discriminations, from all words and characteristics, but conditioned thoughts and discriminations and worlds and characteristics do not have any separate identity apart from it.

    Essentially, absolute reality is detached from all characteristics, but merged with all phenomena. Being detached from characteristics, it is formless, and being merged with all phenomena, it gives them all their forms. For lack of an alternative, we impose on it the name "absolute reality" [i.e., Mind, Real Mark, Buddha Nature].
    Right I agree with all of that, which is what I was saying with the post that it s and it isn't. (Exists and doesn't) And with the second part, totally. absolute reality is the phenomena of self, but also not-self.
  • Now-Is-realityNow-Is-reality
    Looking at things without an ego, maybe you need a path to do that, but I think the idea of needing to "journey" to get where you're already at can distract a bit from your true nature.
    _____________________________________


    Now-is-reality -- There is just no escaping it ... in order to actualize the truth, we have to investigate and honestly enter into the lies. There is no other choice. Hence, Buddhism.
    You're suggesting investigation and I would agree. I would have to say with any realization or acceptance of something it takes investigation and thus a journey in that sense as realization is not instantaneous. Practice and if you speak of a path and or journey in this way I agree. But there is no truth to be actualized. We are the truth, we embody it. But it's realization and I understand that that realization is what needs developing.

    (You cannot ascend into something you are, but rather merely ascend into a higher state of mind).
  • WhoknowsWhoknows Australia Veteran
    Find the true nature of mind and you've found the true nature of all. Luminous and empty like a lamp and the space it occupies.
  • yimingyiming
    Find the true nature of mind and you've found the true nature of all. Luminous and empty like a lamp and the space it occupies.
    Are you referring to a person's mind that the psychiatrist deals with or some mystical mind that the Buddhist monk deals with?
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    I love you guys, nice ambition and auspicious efforts but for me what you are saying is poetry. As philosophical discourse it doesn't make sense to me. Yes, english is my native language and I have a formal education from a great university. (meaning: my attempt to prove I used to understand things LOL)

    Just saying I do not know what "ultimate reality" is. I do not know what "reality" is. The "true nature of things?" "The world as it really is?" "...if the subjective reality wasn't separate from what is?" "... a variation on the ultimate reality, which means subjective reality is the ultimate reality?"

    I'm lost. I want to be encouraging and supportive but I do not understand what you are saying (BTW, despite my quotes of one individual I'm not focussing in on anybody in particular).

    Very Confused


  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    right on the mark. but you do realize you essentially said nothing. all there is left is the silence.
  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    I love you guys, nice ambition and auspicious efforts but for me what you are saying is poetry. As philosophical discourse it doesn't make sense to me. Yes, english is my native language and I have a formal education from a great university. (meaning: my attempt to prove I used to understand things LOL)

    Just saying I do not know what "ultimate reality" is. I do not know what "reality" is. The "true nature of things?" "The world as it really is?" "...if the subjective reality wasn't separate from what is?" "... a variation on the ultimate reality, which means subjective reality is the ultimate reality?"

    I'm lost. I want to be encouraging and supportive but I do not understand what you are saying (BTW, despite my quotes of one individual I'm not focussing in on anybody in particular).

    Very Confused


    Word, Roger. There is a technical philosophical language for this, and Nagarjuna gave us formulas for looking at these ideas. Not to say that such discussion should be discouraged here- just that terms need to be clarified so we can proceed logically.
  • VajraheartVajraheart Veteran
    There is no ultimate reality in Buddhism, just ultimate insight into reality known as Buddhahood.
  • VajraheartVajraheart Veteran
    Don't worry about finding a, "this is it" reification of an experience... just keep focusing on dependent origination/emptiness of every layer... there is no ultimate, just constant evolution and widening insight, eventually you'll attain omniscience of the nature of things, which is not an ultimate truth, just an ultimate vision of what is in constant flux, including you.
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    Oh, now I'm thinking I was a bit harsh and I apologize to you guys. I read this (see below) last year and it was definitely a good read. So there is overlap between spirituality and rational stuff like science and philosophy. These things can be talked about. Maybe I was in a "stricter" mindset this AM when I posted above. Anyway, carry on the good work. I'll try harder to follow along.

    edited: oops too small - can't see it: it's called "The Universe in A Single Atom, Convergence of Science and Spirituality."

    image
  • Now-Is-realityNow-Is-reality
    Oh, now I'm thinking I was a bit harsh and I apologize to you guys. I read this (see below) last year and it was definitely a good read. So there is overlap between spirituality and rational stuff like science and philosophy. These things can be talked about. Maybe I was in a "stricter" mindset this AM when I posted above. Anyway, carry on the good work. I'll try harder to follow along.

    edited: oops too small - can't see it: it's called "The Universe in A Single Atom, Convergence of Science and Spirituality."

    image
    I liked that book. :)
  • yimingyiming
    Oh, now I'm thinking I was a bit harsh and I apologize to you guys.
    Apology not accepted. You know that we are all dancing on the rainbow. I can see you laughing away at us on the other side of this monitor.
  • WhoknowsWhoknows Australia Veteran
    Find the true nature of mind and you've found the true nature of all. Luminous and empty like a lamp and the space it occupies.
    Are you referring to a person's mind that the psychiatrist deals with or some mystical mind that the Buddhist monk deals with?
    Neither, mind is not something mystical. The word mystical is somewhat accurate if you reference this in opposition to materialism or reductionism, but people's connotations of mystical makes it something divine like and out there, which it isn't.

    What psychiatrists refer to is usually what Buddhism calls ego, or the self, or rather the self's mental aggregates. In this respect, their view of the mind is limited to the materialist, reductionist foundations involved in their research.

    Your mind is your mind and nothing else. Noone can tell you what your mind is, its nature is only findable to the seeker themselves. It has some characteristics (luminous and empty) but these only make sense in the context of someone who has undertaken the path to search for it themselves, or used other Buddhist practises that are designed to allow the seeker to find it.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    Mind is experience, this is how it differentiates from form. It is formless. There is only mind/formless and matter/form. :)
  • RogerRoger
    Oh, now I'm thinking I was a bit harsh and I apologize to you guys.
    Apology not accepted. You know that we are all dancing on the rainbow. I can see you laughing away at us on the other side of this monitor.
    I'm not laughing. I'm as concerned as I can be. I'm wishing you well. :-/
  • OneWithFlowOneWithFlow
    Good thread!

    Every concept is separate from the other concepts. Every concept you use to describe reality is merely a description of reality. If words describe reality, that implies that there is a reality which exists beyond the description. Well, when you take away all of the conceptual descriptions, what is left? To say that there is something that is left is to imply that there is a lasting self which is separate from the aggregates. This is duality. Our perception of reality is the five aggregates. Ultimate reality is emptiness. The five aggregates do not differ from emptiness. Emptiness does not differ from the five aggregates. See the heart sutra.
  • WhoknowsWhoknows Australia Veteran
    Mind is experience, this is how it differentiates from form. It is formless. There is only mind/formless and matter/form. :)
    But I think matter/form a projection of mind/formless. What makes form form? Obstruction/reactive force, location, texture, temperature, visual appearance, conceptual overlays (aka it is "this"). These mental constructs convert what is naturally formless into what we call form. Of course mind itself has no absolute basis. So mind projects form, yet mind is empty, so form is empty by virtue of its foundation.
  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    Oh, now I'm thinking I was a bit harsh and I apologize to you guys. I read this (see below) last year and it was definitely a good read. So there is overlap between spirituality and rational stuff like science and philosophy. These things can be talked about. Maybe I was in a "stricter" mindset this AM when I posted above. Anyway, carry on the good work. I'll try harder to follow along.

    edited: oops too small - can't see it: it's called "The Universe in A Single Atom, Convergence of Science and Spirituality."

    image
    I liked that book. :)
    I very much liked and benefitted from reading this too

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