Dalai Lama steps down as Tibetan leader

federica

Spock, that isn't the issue here, and as such, is off-topic.
The original question has nothing to do with the authenticity or veracity of HH the DL's status as a reincarnation, it's to do with the fact that he's jacking politics in, to concentrate on the spiritual side of things.
I guess what he is is irrelevant really, insofar as his ability goes.

dorje

My impression from the Western media is that Tibetan elders still revere him, obviously monastics all do, and probably the generation that's now middle-aged knows who he is, from their parents. So I had the impression that the memory of him was kept alive. Do you think that the censor and propaganda are strong enough to counteract, as you say, word of mouth? Even the "word of mouth" conveyed through generations of the same family? I suppose maybe with the younger generation getting a thoroughly Chinese schooling.... if they're growing apart from their parents and grandparents....? What do you think, dorje? Does the generation now in their teens and twenties even have an understanding of Buddhism (if one can generalize to an entire generation)?

In China, even mentioning the HHDL can be considered treason. Talking about him and having photos, images, videos of HHDL is considered treason. And the majority of the "monks" in the monasteries are actually paid actors, who are paid and rat on those who still revere HHDL. So yes, they have a basic understanding of Buddhism, but I don't think they are fully able to practice their beliefs.

And I have visited Tibet once or twice. And my experience there really opened up my eyes to how bad things are. Many of the shophouse-style shrines were sacked and converted to brothels, bars and gambling dens. And that's just one of the horrors I saw with my own eyes.

compassionate_warrior

Thanks for sharing that, dorje. Gambling dens? Who runs those, the Chinese? And the brothels were set up by the Chinese, to serve the Chinese? Very sad. Are those legal businesses? Is the gov't collecting taxes on the earnings? Or are they handled by organized crime/corrupt gov't officials?

dorje

Some of them are government sanctioned, some of them are run by corrupt officials.

fivebells

It's widely recognised that Tibet is part of China.

Since ethnic Chinese comprise such a large fraction of the world's population, that is literally true, but not really relevant to the actual history.
As Mao Zedong said

Tibet and Xinjiang are different: In Xinjiang in the old society there were 200,000-300,000 Chinese, but in Tibet there was not even a single Chinese. So our troops are in a place where there were no Chinese in the past.

I think the Chinese domination of Tibet is probably the best thing to happen to Tibetan Buddhism in centuries but here you're betraying an ethnically motivated ignorance of the atrocity it constitutes, which is pretty repugnant.

yiming

I'm going to be quite controversial here.

You are no less controversial than me. The only difference is that you speak in paragraphs with diplomacy while I throw out blunt one-liners. Although you and I essentially say the same thing, everyone here jumps - not on you - but on me furiously. What does that tell you?

Lostie

The Chinese diaspora is very diverse. Not all ethnic Chinese outside the mainland identify with the Communist regime.

I am speaking from a standpoint that PRC is a permanent member of the UN Security Council no less. If Tibet is not internationally recognised as part of China, China will have no place in the Council.

To be honest Tibet was made a make-weight in the grand scheme of things for the West in countering the PRC.

It's widely recognised that Tibet is part of China.

Since ethnic Chinese comprise such a large fraction of the world's population, that is literally true, but not really relevant to the actual history.
As Mao Zedong said

Tibet and Xinjiang are different: In Xinjiang in the old society there were 200,000-300,000 Chinese, but in Tibet there was not even a single Chinese. So our troops are in a place where there were no Chinese in the past.

I think the Chinese domination of Tibet is probably the best thing to happen to Tibetan Buddhism in centuries but here you're betraying an ethnically motivated ignorance of the atrocity it constitutes, which is pretty repugnant.

Dakini

What does that tell you?

It tells me that you have a curious way of using Buddhist principles to support your political and personal agenda, in contrast to other members. but I'm curious, do you not have anything to add to Fivebells' post?

dorje

It tells us that you're being controversial for the sake of being controversial, and not because you are trying to understand the situation clearly to see the big picture.

yiming

I think you wish to provoke, which is fine on this forum. However, HHDL is a revered figure for many and your flippant and disingenuous style can only lead to your being shunned. If you wish to speak/poke fun of attachment , create a thread. But do not use HHDL as the example. It is in bad taste.

Why is it in bad taste? Isn't this a Buddhist forum? I would imagine that all threads and topics in a Buddhist forum should relate to the teachings of the Buddha. You guys may regard His Holiness Dalai Lama as sacred, I don't. I would indeed be poking fun of attachment if I were to say that the tortoise is attached to its shell. Tibet is a a political artifact created out of thin air. Attachment to something unreal like Tibet causes as much suffering as the detachment of the tortoise from something real: its shell. Try chewing on what I say, sndy, even if you can't swallow it. You too, dorje. You guys are incredulous, to say the least.

ShiftPlusOne

This isn't about China, I know I brought it up, but let's not go down that road.
If what you want to say is not related to the thread, don't say it here.
Also, a reminder for everyone to stay polite and respectful. I am not locking the thread yet, but I probably should.

Dakini

Tibet has a long history as an independent nation. It came under Mongol domination during the Yuan Dynasty, but so did China. China was part of greater Mongolia along with Tibet (and Russia, etc.). Do you really want to argue this? Pretty soon a moderator is going to come on and tell us we're off-topic, anyway.

Massive population transfers, as China has done in Tibet, are against international Human Rights law. It comes under the classification of genocide. Maybe that's why HHDL is "attached" to the plight of the Tibetan people. You know, yiming, if the Chinese hadn't tortured people and torn down monasteries, they just might have maintained the moral upper hand. They made a bad tactical error. But that's a conversation for another time.

Now we're REALLY off topic!

Dakini

oh, hi Shift. You and I posted simultaneously. I'm done, anyway.

yiming

@yiming, seriously, I'd quit while you're behind.
I understand what you're saying about detachment, but this issue is a political time-bomb, and shook the very core of Tibetan civilisation. it's been a massive issue regarding Human Rights since the 1950's. The inhuman, barbaric and abominable treatment meted out to Tibetans by the Chinese is something that cannot simply be dealt with by 'detachment'.

Yours is a highly emotional response. So, what is the right response to the Tibetan issue, if you were the Buddha? Hang in there and get the whole world to drive the Chinese out? The Chinese are wrong to occupy Tibet, so are the Australians to occupy Australia, the Israelis to occupy Israel, the Americans to occupy America. And so we fight. This whole planet is occupied by inhuman babarians trampling on each other. If animals could speak, they would tell you and me to get off the planet.

Really, wise up.

Your comments are entirely inappropriate, misguided and to say they're simplistic is a gross understatement. "ignorance" doesn't cover it.....

You would be correct if this is a thread for Tibetan political sympathizers and devotees of the Dalai Lama. Just because His Holiness is a Buddhist by association, this doesn't mean you can occupy this forum the way the babaric Chinese trample all over Tibet.