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A few questions...please excuse my new-ness :)
Have just had a few thoughts lately, and wondered if you guys could give me some answers:
1) If one's suffering is so bad, and they commit suicide - then how is that viewed in buddhism, would this have any impact on one's karma?
2) In buddhism, what is the equivilant of sin, and how - with the absence of a god to pray to etc. does buddhism deal with 'sin' and 'guilt'?
3) The idea of rebirth - do you guys take it literally, as one being reborn as an actual animal, or being reborn with differing degrees of suffering/personality?
1) If one's suffering is so bad, and they commit suicide - then how is that viewed in buddhism, would this have any impact on one's karma?
2) In buddhism, what is the equivilant of sin, and how - with the absence of a god to pray to etc. does buddhism deal with 'sin' and 'guilt'?
3) The idea of rebirth - do you guys take it literally, as one being reborn as an actual animal, or being reborn with differing degrees of suffering/personality?
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2) Unskillful karma. Actions that lead to your own suffering or the suffering of others. You're ultimately responsible for yourself, and will 'reap what you sow' as stated in other religions. Related to awakening/liberation, unskillful karma leads away from and skillful karma leads toward Nirvana.
3) I think that rebirth of unwholesome mental states (such as thoughts of self and craving for sense pleasures though they bring no lasting joy), applies to this life... and a rather selfless rebirth of new life forming out of everything you are after death applies to that situation. It's really up in the air what happens after death, but it's probably just the way it seems when we stop thinking about it. There's no one to be born or die, just matter changing from this into that over and over and over again.
1) There are as many views in Buddhism as there are Buddhists. One view is that the killing of the body does not end the suffering.
2) In Buddhism there is only the issue of suffering which is the result of ignorance. Ignorance would be the equivalent of sin. The Buddhist deal with ignorance through self-inquiry.
3) There is no rebirth either as an animal or a human being.
Anyway, how about your answers to meh's question 1), 2) and 3)? Give them your best shot.
My only point to meh_ was, to keep his brain switched on. The value of any answers is not necessarily positively correlated to how enigmatic it sounds. *Sometimes* things sound wacky simply because they are wacky.
FWIW, If I run across someone whom I think is a "bad teacher" I'm not going to punch him out. I'm going to move on.
___Rough___ analogy: a kid is unfortunate enough to have what I consider to be a bad father (however: NOT bad enough to call the authorities). What do I do? Punch out the father and tell the kid his dad sucks? No.
IOW, STFU (F=frick) about it and move on.
IM_H_O of course.
OOPS! I'm sorry. I just realized this was a bit OT. I like the emoticon too much to delete it.
Metta to all sentient beings
Thanks.
2) Sin in Buddhism and in Christianity have a similar basis: actions that stem from a misunderstanding of the true nature of reality.
3) As SherabDorje said, look it up on the numerous threads on rebirth and reincarnation.
cranreuch have you considered being less agressive to people when they are genuinely trying to help people out? Especially on a *buddhist* forum. So far all you have done is derail my thread and insulted a lot of the members on the site... 'taxonomy of posters' - I mean how is that a neccessary thread.
One good thread on the rebirth question. There are many.
Agreed. There is also a thread running on the concept of Sin in Buddhism, meh, which I recommend you also take a look at.
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/9588/have-you-sinneds#Item_57 I do take issue with this.
This is not a definitive or generally accepted statement, and it is up to each person to make their own enquiries and come to their own conclusions.
I prefer to never come down one way or the other, but to keep an open mind on the matter.
it is in fact the most logical thing to do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_views_on_sin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)
the bbc website is ok as well
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/buddhistethics/euthanasiasuicide.shtml
check them out, to get some sort of overview on Buddhism and the questions you ask.
Metta to all sentient beings
When we are reborn, what is to say that we will be buddhists? That we will be able to try again?
In fact the truth of what they are saying is independent of what I, or you, or anyone else believes.
Karma is action coupled with intention. If the action is out of greed, malice or out of ignorance of the right way then that gives Bad karma. If the action is coupled with Generosity, good-will or knowleadge of the right path then that gives good karma.
So suicide might actually give good karma if it is coupled with good intention.
Say someone sacrifices their life to save others. All bad karma can be seen as sin I guess. That is actions done out of greed, malice or ignorance of the right path. There is no escape from Karma (good or bad) the results of the karma will always befall the culprit. There is no absolution as in Christianity.
I take it literally and so did the Buddha in his teachings. But I do not think you have to take a stand and believe it to be a Buddhist. But it is totally unlogical to disbelieve in rebirth because such a standpoint can not be logically proven. Did you follow? Ask otherwise.
Kr
Victor
1) Yes, it would have , if rebirth was real.
2) The equivalent of sin would be the bad action.
3) The idea of rebirth...*sigh* hard to explain this one. When you die, you don't know if you're going to be reborn as an animal or as a human. You just die. What happens afterwards...is just what happens afterwards.
R
/Victor
For a start, I don't believe that death of the body is death of the consciousness. I'm not saying I have a belief it's not, I just don't find myself with the belief that it *is*. In other words, I just don't know.
As a result, now -- as opposed to my younger days -- I have no problem with the *idea* of consciousness continuing after bodily death. I now consider it a reasonable component of a coherent theory of existence, albeit one without any evidence I find compelling.
As a corollary, I have no problem with the idea of my consciousness being "reborn" in another body. But at the moment, I have no idea if that is true. And for the time being I'm at a loss to see how I *could* know either way.
P.S. In the above I'm using "consciousness" in the most non-specific way. I'm not distinguishing between the western philosophical idea of the source of qualia (say), and on the other hand whatever kind of "mind stream" thing is meant in Buddhism.
It follows in the longer term, our mind should have no issues whatsoever with guilt because it understands to perform harmful action when our mind is ignorant or blind is 100% normal & natural.
The Buddha taught every human being without exception is born into this world with ignorance as the primary underlying mental tendency (anusaya).
In short, everything we do in life is merely a lesson and a stepping stone in our spiritual evolution.
When we see the truth of harmless & harmful actions, our mind will be free from guilt.
Guilt only occurs when we do not understand clearly the truth of harmless & harmful actions but we have guilt because we have conflicted with what we regard as the laws of God.
When we see the truth of harmless & harmful actions, "God" becomes unnecessary because the moral law is imbedded in our hearts.
Kind regards
DD:)
What made you change your mind?
I must say I want to keep an open mind to the idea of it...but then I realize, the only reason why I wish to do so is because a lot of people believe in it. And the years have taught me that most people really DON'T know what they are talking about. And I can't be a slave to what people think is a good idea anymore...there is tendency to respect and consider.....but I'm only considering because people talk about it a lot. If someone talked about pink elephants a lot, I might keep an open mind about them too...even though deep inside my heart I saw NO reason to even CONJURE such a possibility (reincarnation or rebirth is completely random....or rather...it plays upon a very human fear of death shared by all of us to some degree...but has no basis on...ANYTHING really.)
But for others, such as Victorious, literally.
:mullet:
For example, there have been occasions when a person posts on New Buddhist they are thinking about suicide.
We all try our best to help them because Buddhism views suicide & suicidal thoughts with compassion.
Kind regards
DD:)
The convergence of a range of things really.
First, we know that Quantum Mechanics poses very significant difficulties for the intuitive understanding of reality. Electrons as little balls whirling around a nucleus of other little balls; light as a wave-and-particle; something is either here or it's there but not both; and so on -- none of those models fit observation perfectly. Trouble is, no model fits perfectly. So that leaves me with the ability to, in a scientifically respectable way, say "I have no clue what is going on out there."
Next, language. Early 20th century analytic philosophy in particular, and to a lesser extent math, began to probe the boundaries of what could be "said" -- i.e. the limits of language and, therefore, thought. That reaches its essence perhaps in Wittgenstein's Tractatus in which he concludes (or is interpreted to have concluded) that there are "phenomena" "out there" that *are* "out there" but about which we cannot speak, and therefore about which we should just shut up. Now that conclusion is very hard to express because it, itself, is on the verge of things of which we cannot speak. Wittgenstein's position was almost a wink wink, nudge nudge, "Look, either you've already spotted this yourself, in which case you don't need me to tell you about it; or you haven't, in which case you'll need to figure it out because I can't *say* it"
Then a little bit more physics -- more science really. And this time nothing as esoteric as QM. The simple fact is, the "laws" of physics aren't. Or at least, we've no reason to believe they are laws. For example, the "law" of gravity is inverse squared. That makes sense because of the relationship between the volume of an object and its surface area. And as a result we can tell how fast an object will accelerate towards the earth when we drop it. But if tomorrow the object started acting like gravity was inverse cubed, or simply linear, we'd have *no justification* for complaining a law had been broken. We'd be surprised, yes. We'd repeat the experiment, sure. We'd check our instruments and have others do the same. But in the end, we'd be where we are right now with QM and, for example, entanglement. We'd furrow our brows, scratch our heads and take one of a range os positions including "WTF!?" and the Copenhagen one which is "Who cares; make the math work and get on with it."
So, smoosh all that together, and I think "Rebirth? Why not?" It's as coherent as anything else out there. There's no evidence for it, but that doesn't mean it's not true. OK, so that for me is the question too. I have no problem with rebirth. But I have no problem with no rebirth.
Funnily enough, I do have a problem with death of the body meaning the death of "me". But that may just be old religious habits dying hard
Overall, I just fall back on the old faithful, "Well how could I possibly know that!?"
2.Unskillful actions eg killing can land you in hell for some time, not eternity.
3.Yes, you can be reborn as human,animals or in other realms.