Suffering: Is It Really The Big Problem?

formermonkJohn

*
well i'm a little tired of hearing so much about suffering, its overated as the most horrible thing, i find myself suffering all the time, but it doesn't bother me at all, i simply state in my mind; i am(if i were normal) experiencing suffering, but i feel nothing bad just a concept, physical pain i do feel that though quite easily, but i say in my mind i feel pain but its not that bad, the difference is its easy to overcome situation/mental suffering by simply not letting it make you fell bad, just perceiving it and letting it go, but physical pain is real in a sense you can't meditate it away, try asking any monk, if you feel no pain, will you let me stab you in the hand?? the only takers on that one will be charlatans or macho youth, who will let you do it just to impress you, but believe me they still feel pain.

suffering was the number one problem for people in the time of the buddha, not so today, we have the buddhas teaching, food medicine, cars, telephones,etc to alleviate our suffering; we're not suffering enough to want to change. people in the buddhas time would do anything to escape the pain and sufering, not so much true today. today's buddha would be concerned with starvation, homelessnes, poverty, and yes even the economy, and of all things i think INJUSTICE, of war, rich vs poor, lack of good education, especially drug and alcohol abuse etc

when we tell a newcomer, buddhism is all about suffering and the path to get rid of it, we are deluded, people who aren't suffering a lot are put off, why do I need buddhism they say. buddhism is about practicing love and compassion for all beings and animals, much more important than getting rid of suffering, don't be wimps who flinch at the thought of suffering, if putting yourself into situations that require unpleasantness enables you to be a better person, go for, its not all in your mind, suffering, your mind is kind of trapped in your body, so thats real too, in a sense, until your next life!!

remember the four noble truths are a formula, suffering can be replaced by any bad thing and its still true;

INJUSTICE EXISTS
INJUSTICE HAS CAUSES
BY ELIMINATING THE CAUSES OF IN JUSTICE
INJUSTICE CEASES TO EXIST

or replace injustice with ignorance, poverty, drug addiction, starvation, poverty etc etc. it really is the answer to most of lifes problems thats why the're called the FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS

formermonkJohn

ps im not saying suffering is not a bad thing, and i'm not saying its not a good thing to get rid of, i'm just saying while it may have been the core of the buddha's message 2500 years ago, it may not be the same primary message of a buddha living today, or the buddha's message for us today, if we might imagine that, sincerely john

SeMich

I believe that many of those modern conveniences designed to alleviate dukkha, well, they really do not. They reflect craving and attachment more than anything else; none of it addresses our own existential anxiety, dis-ease and discomfort. Even the very rich are rarely sated by their weatlh, so I do not think that there is much less suffering today than there was in Siddhartha's time; it has a different quality in the late capitalist West and even many parts of Asia, but I think that the message of the First Noble Truth is just as applicable today as it was two thousand years ago. And I have confidence that it will remain that way indefinitely, thousands and thousands of years into the future. And yes I think that those injustices would concern him and should be issues for modern Buddhists, but I do not think that it would really change the content of the message and the underlying understanding of ultimate reality. That endures.

Sabre

Life is suffering. Not 'suffering exists', that's numbing down the teaching. If you want to believe that, that's ok, but it is not what the Buddha said.

Rich or poor, lonely or with lots of friends, healthy or unhealthy, sadness or joy.. it's all suffering because it can never last forever.

By the way, injustice doesn't exist in Buddhism. Karma is always there to justify things.

formermonkJohn

se mich, spot on, i agree, im just saying there are a lot of (maybe deluded) people today that don't think there suffering, have a good job and place to live, a spouse/and or children, and you tell them (many of them might be christian in the west) buddhism is about getting rid of suffering, and they say, suffering, why do i have to get rid of that, i'm not suffering(they might be in denial)

but if you tell them the truth, "buddhism" to quote one of my good friends; "is primarily about practising love and compassion for all beings including animals, who feel pain just like you and I, and the buddha taught the five precepts, this is most important and of the precepts i think not doing drugs or alcohol is the most important thing, people lie for drugs, steal for drugs, kill for drugs, with out drugs or alcohol they don't want to do those bad things and live peaceful happy simple lives like me and my family" those are the words of a 70 year old bhikku(former monk) who was a monk for 10yrs and went for years to a school for meditation in cambodia, survived pol pot and the khmer rouge and fled to america were he is an elder at my temple.

DhammaDhatu

*
remember the four noble truths are a formula, suffering can be replaced by any bad thing and its still true;

INJUSTICE EXISTS
INJUSTICE HAS CAUSES
BY ELIMINATING THE CAUSES OF IN JUSTICE
INJUSTICE CEASES TO EXIST

or replace injustice with ignorance, poverty, drug addiction, starvation, poverty etc etc. it really is the answer to most of lifes problems thats why the're called the FOUR NOBLE TRUTHS

sounds like you are a social activist

the four noble truths are not a formula

the four noble truths used a common formula

the Buddha did not invent this formula

DhammaDhatu

a 70 year old bhikku (former monk) who was a monk for 10yrs...

well i'm a little tired of hearing so much about suffering, its overated as the most horrible thing, i find myself suffering all the time, but it doesn't bother me at all...

suffering was the number one problem for people in the time of the buddha, not so today....

often, our experience is not that of the Prince Siddharta

in Pali, the word "bhikkhu" is philologically analysed in the Pāli commentary of Buddhaghosa as "one who sees danger"

many have worn orange or purple robes but not all are "bhikkhus"

with metta

Sahasrara

Something I noticed about every single thing you mentioned, that if Siddhartha were alive and experiencing his life today, is that they're all advanced forms of suffering. I, and I think he, understand that those things range from pretty bad to terrible, but he never tried to abolish war, which was the primary concern of his time. But war causes suffering, just like it does today, along with homelessness, poverty, weak and worsening economy, and even underfunded education. They all trickle down to suffering and agony. The thing is, Buddhism teaches it's followers how to deal with these feelings of mental, emotional, and physical pain, not how to abolish them from the world. It was impossible back then, and it's even more so today with how much wider the global population is, how segregated the world is, and how closed minded a lot of the people are. He was only human himself. All he wanted to do once he reached enlightenment was show other people how to cope.

So let me ask you something. How are YOU going to cope with the feelings that I know at least one of the things you've listed has hurt you?

Rodrigo

I agree with SeMich, it seems that even with all the comforts in modern life, people still suffering a lot. As a psychologist, I see it all the time.

However, I do feel that there is one problem when people want to get rid of suffering at all costs. The first step, which is accepting that suffering is a natural part of life, may look simple, but is very hard for most people.

formermonkJohn

I want to make a big apology here, i made a big mistake denouncing a commonly used idea of suffering used on this forum, and not realizing that there is SUFFERING, the whole thing, a term that covers any kind of bad or marginally good thing that cause people to be unhappy, feel pain, be confused, be poor hungry, sick etc etc. or cause suffering, It took me meditating and going back the time of the buddha to imagine what the buddha was thinking when he sat under the bhodi tree for months, it came to me after writing this post on the enlightenment thread in answer to a comment, I WAS WRONG SUFFERING IS HUGE, but you may not realize how many forms of suffering the buddha was thinking about.
DD i beleive your wrong the buddha invented not just the four nobel truths but the formula as well, where else have you ever heard the formula before the BUddha

TO SEE MY REALIZATION THAT LED TO THIS DEAD END GO TO (the four noble truths, formula for success thread) sincerely john metta

formermonkJohn

sarastra, the whole reason the buddha left the palace in the first place was his father wanted him to lead a war between his sakyan tribe and the local kashitrayan? tribe, the buddhist was a vehement pacifist and draft dodger who fled to canada(the jungle) where no one could find him lest they drag him back to fight,

as buddhism pervaded india there were 500yrs of peace for all india as the buddhist eliminated or greatly cut down on war, buddhism is a pacifist religion, no buddhist can be forced to carry a gun in the US army, same with seventh day adventist christians, not so with other christians, agnostics, or atheists, they have no exemption not to fire a weapon in the us military, especially if there were ever a draft.

the us requires documentation you follow the religion too, good reason to join a buddhist temple IMHO

Disney

Suffering is not a problem, and it is normal. Without the opportunity to contact with the teachings on Suchness of beings and be awaken is true suffering :thumbsup:

vinlyn

*

well i'm a little tired of hearing so much about suffering...

I think you're touching on an issue I have always felt with the way Buddhist thought is often expressed.

Yes, I think it is wise to learn to deal with suffering, but I also see suffering as a normal part of living, just as is joy. Neither is permanent.

There are times in my life when I felt I could be proud of my strength that I had suffered through something and come out from under that cloud.

Cloud

The thing we need to realize on a direct level is that there is blatant suffering that we're aware of, but also that really we're unsatisfied with life on every level. We never have enough, are never fully or permanently satisfied, are always looking for something else or more and more of what we like. Our dissatisfaction and frustration with life, and drive to be happy, only really lead us to more of the same. That's what we have to learn from the First Noble Truth (and the Second).

Dakini

*
suffering was the number one problem for people in the time of the buddha, not so today, we have the buddhas teaching, food medicine, cars, telephones,etc to alleviate our suffering;

Suffering today comes from misplaced values, alienation from the true nature of reality. Not really all that different than in the Buddha's time, except today we have technology and creature comforts that may distract us from the true nature of suffering. Some of us have those things, anyway. Not everyone lives on the same level we in the West do, let's not forget.

I like your new 4 Nobles, w/the emphasis on injustice. Injustice is a major cause of suffering in the world, the root cause of some of the other forms of suffering on your list, IMO.

Cloud

I think suffering is just as bad today, personally. Even if you have money, don't suffer from disease, have friends, have "things" (big screen TV, fancy car, big house, the works), you're attached to those and you'll never have enough. The more you have, the less important what you have seems and the more important to have more more more. We're never satisfied. Even in a country like America, self-proclaimed greatest country in the world (I won't argue with that), there is much suffering of never having enough, always wanting more. And we largely ignore the people who are starving, we're too worried about ourselves...

Dakini

I think suffering is just as bad today, personally.

I suspect the OP may have had in mind the fact that our discontent today is very different from untouchables living in the street and eating garbage and getting kicked around, and that kind of thing. Which still exists today, wasn't just in the Buddha's time. But the suffering that comes from never having enough, or from relationships that don't work out, and other problems of relative affluence is different from the suffering of homelessness (and the violence that often accompanies that), and other forms of extreme poverty and prejudice. If one can compare sufferings.

Cloud

True. We just have to be open to all forms of suffering, and the causes, so as not to think things are so much better than we don't need Buddhism (or any method of awakening to reality and what causes our unsatisfactoriness).

Dakini

Buddhism's always relevant. Even if we, ourselves, aren't suffering (who isn't!), it reminds us that others are, and that serving others is our mission.

formermonkJohn

suffering is only one form of injustice, communism is a form of injustice, capitalism is a form of injustice, socialism is a form of injustice but mostly for the rich, anarchy, sharia law, oligarchys etc etc all are forms of injustice. Even KARMA MAY BE A CASE OF INJUSTICE IN JAPAN"S CASE, who created karma, what makes it good it punishes us repeatadly for things we did a long time ago that should have been long forgotten...... karma is definetly not a god or worthy of worship!

SUFFERING IS NOT ALWAYS AN INJUSTICE< SOME SUFFERING IS JUST AND DESERVED AND GOOD, suffering is no longer the no 1 cause the modern worlds problems, as it was in the days of the buddha, weve had 2500 years to already greatly greatly reduce suffering now INJUSTICE IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF MOST OF TODAY"S PROBLEMS suffering is just desserts for child molesters, rapists, and thieves, suffering is just dessert for capatalist and communist overlord bosses who oppress their workers, suffering in the form of lack of money is the punishment for being addicted to things, possesions.suffering is just desserts for people who hurt others and only care about themselves, suffering, trials build character, people willing to endure mass suffering sometimes accomplish great things.

im really taking a complete break for three days to help me get less manic and sleep more, but i just had to say that, my OP was right in the first place, my apology, and retraction was too quick, ignore that apology, i think were on to something here

s

Jeffrey

We cannot put our finger on exactly what injustice is it has so many shapes sizes and colors. We can only start our journey where we are.

formermonkJohn

right jefferey, you spoke a formula, so to speak, remove the word injustice and insert the word suffering;

we cannot put our finger on exactly what suffering is, it has so many shapes sizes and colors.............

Palzang

Suffering is not the main point of Buddhism. The main point of Buddhism is that you, and you alone, are in control of your life. You have the power to create the causes for bliss just as you have the power to create the causes of suffering. However, suffering should be seen as a great blessing because if there were no suffering, what would be the impetus to practice? There would be none, and we would continue to revolve on the wheel of death and rebirth forever.

Palzang

Vilhjalmr

The other bad things you mention (such as injustice), former monk John, are only bad because they cause suffering. That is what any and all troubles lead back to. I also feel it is a bit premature to declare victory over suffering; as others pointed out, entirely happy and fulfilled people are in the minority. Indeed, I would say there is probably only a handful of them in all the world.

hermitwin

No suffering, no problem , nirvana.