Stages of the Path: Stream-Entry and Beyond

Cloud

There have been many threads lately about Enlightenment. About whether it's possible in one lifetime or at all, whether it's for everyone or just the monks/nuns, and other concerns. Luckily I just finished reading this paper by Bodhiketu of the Western Buddhist Order (found it through Google), which examines our views on what the various stages of Enlightenment actually are like; what "enlightened people" might be like.

I was surprised when this paper began to speak of two different views expressed in the Pali Canon (Tipitaka) and Commentaries regarding the very first stage of awakening, called Stream-Entry (Sotapanna). Many times I've heard forum members declare that such a mind has near-perfect morality, and assumed they must be right, but how many of us know anyone with near-perfect morality? This makes stream-entry seem like it would be rare, and we'd easily be able to tell if a friend of ours "entered the stream". Maybe not so! After reading this, I'd be inclined to think there are several who might have this Insight on this very forum...

I have to warn everyone though, this is 10 pages long. It describes each of the four Theravada stages of enlightenment (stream-entry would be equivalent to the first bhumi in Mahayana), as well as tells us some of the reasons these people might not claim Enlightenment at all. It makes sense to me, but you'll have to judge for yourself.

Looking forward to comments!
(The web address is http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol5/stages-of-the-path.pdf if anyone has trouble with the attached file.)

taiyaki

Very clear and straight forward. Thank you!

Cloud

You read that already? Damn speedreader...

(By the way I don't buy the 20-30 years they say in this, I mean Ajahn Chah said 5 years. I guess it's no good putting any time expectation on it!)

taiyaki

how long does it take to get enlightenment? 10 years.
what if i try really really hard and work really really hard. 20 years.
what if i work harder than anyone else in the world and do everything and anything you tell me to do. 40 years.

Cloud

Heard that before. You can't strive, you have to find the balance.

Sabre

Very interesting read, thanks.

I know some people in real life whom I suspect are stream enterers. But I can not know for sure. Also on this forum there may be some, but that's even harder to judge. On the other hand, you can know for sure who are not because Right View is complete for SE's.

I hope and think it is possible to reach this stage with enough practice. There are a lot of Zen students who claim some kind of enlightenment and there will be even more who experienced it but don't because they know it doesn't belong to them.

Cloud

(Deleted off-topic posts/argument, please keep it on-topic guys. Thanks!)

Cloud

@Sabre, I agree, hard to tell who is, but easy to tell who's not (if they're clearly off of Right View).

Jeffrey

Why is it translated as right view and not correct view?

Cloud

Good question, just like why is dukkha translated as suffering when it means so much more? IMHO Right View is better expressed as Complete View, but then again "Right" more readily implies that our normal view is "Wrong" or not aligned with the true nature of all phenomena. Did ya read the paper @Jeffrey? I wanna get some thoughts on it.

fivebells

Why is it translated as right view and not correct view?

Because "right" here refers to a cognitive state of non-attachment to a particular view, not correctness in some ontological sense.

fivebells

Did ya read the paper @Jeffrey? I wanna get some thoughts on it.

Jefferey's question is very much on-topic, because the paper lists right view as an absolute criterion for stream entry.

The criteria for on-topic commentary has been getting a bit restrictive around here, lately.

Cloud

I didn't say it wasn't on-topic fivebells, chill. I just want to discuss the actual paper also, considering that is the topic. Is taiyaki the only one who's read it so far, other than myself?

andyrobyn

Reading it now, Cloud :coffee:

fivebells

Yes, I read it before responding.

andyrobyn

Have read it twice ... and my only comment is along the lines of saying I wouldn't presume to know ... but then I practice within the traditions of Tibetan Buddhism

Jeffrey

clouds I read it as well. I would have to read it again, but I think what I was getting at with 'correct view' is the tendancy to view the fix or needed change as the object to be attained.

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html
"It begins with the intuitive insight that all beings are subject to suffering and it ends with complete understanding of the true nature of all things."

From my tradition's perspective* the first is the antidote to being overwhelmed by desire. If we get weaken desire we chip at the distractions and eventually renounce some of the things that are preventing us from practicing.

But renunciation is not itself the whole of right view.

* impermance weakens attachment to 'this life' which is different from 'desire'

Cloud

As I understand it, Right View means our understanding, either conceptual or through direct insight, of the Four Noble Truths. It begins with analyzing the 4NT through our reason and logic, but our understanding deepens as we begin to see this reality for ourselves through direct meditative insight and observation/re-evaluation of our reality, until at the very end our Right View is perfected and the mind has perfect clarity of the nature of all phenomena.

Jeffrey

The third noble truth captured by the precious life reminds us that our suffering can be found meaningful for a search and to have refuge in the connection to buddha through the noble practioners of the 10 directions.

andyrobyn

My understanding and working definition of right view is to see things, to grasp the impermanent and imperfect nature of all objects and all our ideas. Harnessing the insight that all beings are subject to suffering is the beginning of the path which potentially ends with complete understanding of the true nature of all things. Our view of the world forms our thoughts and our actions, so right view is the beginning of the path which leads to right thoughts and right actions.

Jeffrey

we have no control of our thoughts. for this reason I feel right thought is part of or the same thing as right concentration.

andyrobyn

To my mind, just now, right view is addressing our cognitive capacity to see things, the thing that makes our human experience so different to that of other species

Cloud

It's always been amazing to me how different everyone thinks of things, as far as Buddhism goes. No two people ever have quite the same view.

andyrobyn

Yeah, agree Cloud - where's DD when you need him - sure he would have a different take on my capacity of the mind view

Dazzle

DD is indeed a sparkling jewel ornament in any group !

Speaking of 'Jewel Ornaments' I think in Tibetan Buddhism Gampopa describes the first Bodhisattva level as equivalent to Theravada Stream entry in the 'Jewel Ornament of liberation' (a fact also mentioned in the OP)

Sabre

It's always been amazing to me how different everyone thinks of things, as far as Buddhism goes. No two people ever have quite the same view.

They may have the same view, but because it is not describable in words it comes out differently.

Impermanence, emptiness, inter-connectedness, no-self. It's all the same thing.

Thich Nhat Hahn said: In Buddhism, all views are wrong views. Of course he was talking about this. When you describe something you can never touch reality.

Sabre

To my mind, just now, right view is addressing our cognitive capacity to see things, the thing that makes our human experience so different to that of other species

Why do you think our expience is so different? It's not. We are not superiour or something. There has been research that shows that monkeys can have doubt for example. An emotion that would seem mostly human.

Thinking about things doesn't give right view

GuyC

But renunciation is not itself the whole of right view.

Technically renunciation falls under "Right Intention", it is more of a consequence of Right View than actually being part of Right View in it's own right...but, no biggie.

Jeffrey

Good point, but in this case the result of renunciation is single pointed meditation on the dharma. Or a stabile relationship to ones awakened glimpse.

nibbuti

But renunciation is not itself the whole of right view.

Indeed, there are two kinds of right view: one with effluents, connected to morality and reward of good deeds, inviting to wholesome states, like rebirth, destination, karma; and one without effluents, connected to seeing and understanding arising, impermanence, not-self, unsatisfactoriness and quenching, inviting to direct experience and sublime states, like the three marks and four noble truths, resulting in the wish for renunciation or a simple lifestyle.

GuyC

Hi TheCap,

Indeed, there are two kinds of right view

Is there any Sutta justification for the supposed "two kinds" of Right View?

Metta,

Guy

patbb

great article; thanks for sharing.

now lets get it done

nibbuti

Is there any Sutta justification for the supposed "two kinds" of Right View?

Indeed GuyC, there is.

"And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by taints (sammaditthi sasavas), partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions; and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path."

(mahacattarisaka sutta, goes on to explain the details and examples.)

Cloud

Re: Right View
This from http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/intro_bud.htm (I bolded relevant stuff):

The path to liberation from these miserable states of being, as taught by the Buddha, has eight points and is known as the eightfold path. The first point is called right view -- the right way to view the world. Wrong view occurs when we impose our expectations onto things; expectations about how we hope things will be, or about how we are afraid things might be. Right view occurs when we see things simply, as they are. It is an open and accommodating attitude. We abandon hope and fear and take joy in a simple straight-forward approach to life.

And this, I believe, is where the stream-entrant differs in their worldview. They stop looking for some special/supernatural meaning or understanding and finally realize that things are just as they seem to be. Realizing this, there's no further question that the Buddha was right and his teachings are true (impermanence, not-self, conditionality, etc.), and the mind knows exactly what it has to do to abandon all suffering (by abandoning all the fetters, releasing all craving and attachment).

Up until this point, it's all about this view or that view, with some element of clinging and delusion. After this, wrong views don't arise because the mind no longer looks to "think up" a reality, it sees the simple reality that's before thought. As "gross" as stream-entry is, with unwholesome mental states still quite capable of arising, at least that mind has found the truth and can't help but be honest with itself.

That's my working theory. It would also seem that after this point, since the mind is firmly rooted in reality, the process of conditioning toward Nirvana is mostly on auto-pilot, as if the mind is being pulled instead of pushed toward the goal. It's the only real direction that the mind can go; it begins to unravel the deeper meanings, gain greater clarity, with frequent meditative fruitions that lead to once-returner and beyond without any great effort.

nibbuti

Please note how the Buddha acknowledges what is there, and discerns the wholesome and the leading onwards, rather than just affirming or rejecting cosmologies, as many gurus and batchelorists respectively tend to do. May all beings attain the sublime.

GuyC

Is there any Sutta justification for the supposed "two kinds" of Right View?

Indeed GuyC, there is.

"And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by taints (sammaditthi sasavas), partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions; and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path."

(mahacattarisaka sutta, goes on to explain the details and examples.)

Thank you

Cloud

Also something else of note, that we don't want to put such people up on a pedestal, this won't help us:

"If we put people up on pedestals and worship them and try to turn them into saviours, we will only be disappointed. Nobody can save us. Nobody can live our life for us. Our spiritual friends are part of the conditions which help us to make an effort with spiritual practice but the effort is all our own. We can draw inspiration from the lives of others, past and present, but we have to act from that inspiration. We need to become Stream Entrants. In that way we become a refuge unto ourselves." from http://ratnaghosa.fwbo.net/sanghatwo.html

They may be able to help steer us straight, but we shouldn't make them out to be special. Any kind of thought like that means that we expect ourselves to be "special" when we enter the stream. No good.

fivebells

They stop looking for some special/supernatural meaning or understanding and finally realize that things are just as they seem to be.

Maybe more to the point, that the stream of experience is the fundamental reality. All else is inference or conjecture, and hence a mental fabrication.

Cloud

Experience is it. Mind and form. Of course this is all opinion, we're all going to have our own perspective.

nibbuti

Maybe more to the point, that the stream of experience is the fundamental reality. All else is inference or conjecture, and hence a mental fabrication.

The streaming of experience is not even a stream, but many snapshots composed by the memory faculty into what is unknowingly perceived as continuous or fundamental.

fivebells

Yeah, I've only just started to apprehend that over the last few weeks. The 'noting' practice described in MCTB has been very helpful in that respect.