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Alternative High Cholesterol Remedies?

DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
edited March 2011 in General Banter
I am not willing to take pills at 25:(
The reason for high Cholesterol is mostly genetics...
As I run 3 or 4 times a week with Yoga and Zen Meditation daily.

Thank you!:)
«1

Comments

  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited March 2011
    There are a variety of causes for high cholesterol, including thyroid disease or other hormonal problems. Make sure you have a good amt. of healthy oils in your diet, like olive oil, grapeseed oil, avocado, artichokes. I take it you're not as big on sour cream and butter as your parents and grandparents probably were, Leon? It's the steady diet of sour cream that tends to shorten the lifespan of Russians and Ukes. I've read that the Tibetans' daily consumption of butter tea is the cause of their tendency toward early heart disease, too. Anyway, fruits, veggies, lean meat if you're a meat-eater, soy (the oil in soy is a good cholesterol-fighter). Do you work out with weights? That helps, too. It keeps the "good" cholesterol circulating through the bloodstream.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    edited March 2011
    (the stupid board wouldn't let me edit my last post...)
    [Mod Note: Deleted it for you. ~~Cloud]

    There are a million different (mostly un-researched) ways of dealing with cholesterol. I also had genetically bad cards dealt to me on this issue. What part of your cholesterol panel is "bad"? There are lots of different measures of lipids, and any or all of them can be out of whack. If you haven't had it done, I strongly recommend getting an NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance) panel done. Very few cardiologists put much stock in total cholesterol, nor even as much in LDL vs. HDL as they used to. There are other numbers that the NMR test gives you that turn out to be much more predictive for heart and vascular disease. The NMR test isn't expensive, and your insurance should cover it (assuming you're in the US and you actually have insurance).

    In addition to exercise and diet, I now take salmon oil (I only use the stuff that is certified from wild caught, sustainably fished salmon that I get from www.vitalchoice.com), as well as Niaspan. While I hate the idea of having to purchase niacin from a big pharma company that charges through the nose, niacin has been proven in numerous double-blind, placebo controlled research studies to be the single most effective way of treating high cholesterol. Better, in fact, than any of the statin drugs. The main down side to niacin is the flushing/itching. Some people don't get it, but I definitely do. The Niaspan is nothing but plain old niacin (Vitamin B3) in an extended release form that doesn't generally cause the flushing. It brought my VLDL small particle size down by about 40% inside of 4 months, and my cardiologist was tickled pink. I refuse at this point to even consider a statin drug, with all the side effects they have. The niacin is working, and the fish oil isn't hurting. BTW, I don't care what you read (esp on the internets) about "no-flush" niacin. It's not niacin and it's not biologically active in your body. You might as well flush (no pun intended) that money down the toilet. Plain niacin (B3) is what you need to have. The OTC versions of so-called "slow niacin" (slow release) are not the same thing as the Niaspan. Those compounds are merely niacin in a parafin base. The problem with niacin is that in large amounts (= high blood concentration) they can be toxic to your liver. The OTC "slow niacin" just dumps a big concentration in at a later time. The extended release Niaspan releases it over (as the name implies) an extended time, giving you a more even, and lower blood concentration.

    I don't work for the company that makes Niaspan, and I'm not at all a fan of big pharma, but I have to say that it's worked extremely well for me over the past 10 months I've been taking it. If that gives me more years of healthy living, then it's the price I'm willing to pay.

    As they say on the commercial, ask your doctor if it's right for you :) I'll also add that most family practitioners aren't that well versed on the latest research on this subject. Many of them tend to get into prescribing habits, and are often swayed by the material the latest drug rep left with them... It pays to do your research and talk to a cardiologist.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    That's very interesting about niacin, Mountains--good to hear from someone in the medical field on this. And thanks for the reminder about salmon oil. Fish oils, in general, Leon, I mean, from eating fish, are good. (Leon did say he didn't want to take pills at his age.) But as long as we're on the subject of pills, the ayurvedic oil, guggul, is a very effective cholesterol-fighter. I also appreciate the honest appraisal of family practitioners, Mountains. IMO, most are worthless, especially US-trained ones.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    There are a variety of causes for high cholesterol, including thyroid disease or other hormonal problems. Make sure you have a good amt. of healthy oils in your diet, like olive oil, grapeseed oil, avocado, artichokes. I take it you're not as big on sour cream and butter as your parents and grandparents probably were, Leon? It's the steady diet of sour cream that tends to shorten the lifespan of Russians and Ukes. I've read that the Tibetans' daily consumption of butter tea is the cause of their tendency toward early heart disease, too. Anyway, fruits, veggies, lean meat if you're a meat-eater, soy (the oil in soy is a good cholesterol-fighter). Do you work out with weights? That helps, too. It keeps the "good" cholesterol circulating through the bloodstream.
    Thank you!
    That helps.
    I usually have a veggie/raw and once or twice a week meat, but it's only chicken.
    I have been eating a lot of sweets and have been eating burritos...:(
    Yea, my parents eat a lot of butter and salt,sugar, but I stopped myself.
    About 5 years ago, it was actually pretty good, but now it went up.
    My cholesterol is 186.... Goodness! It should be around 80 or so...
    That is insane!!!
    I try to pay attention to what I eat and how much as well as putting in the workouts.
    I don't do weight lifting any longer, as I messed up my bones, limbs and the like from heavy lifting at least 6 years ago.
    I am focusing mostly on Zen Meditation/Yoga for stretching and building muscle. Jogging and Walking as well.

    Thank you for your recommendations!:)
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    The huge way the "high cholesterol" issue is tossed around is because of misleading advertising by the drug companies.

    The claim, "Statins reduce the chance of heart attack and stroke" is sooooooo @#$%^& misleading. You have to say it IS true BUT they don't bother to finish that sentence with, "for those who have had a heart attack/stroke or have a family history of heart disease."

    So Leon, __if__ you have family history of heart trouble you probably should consider statins to lower your C.. If you DO take statins you MUST (believe me or google it) take COQ 10 supplements. (pronounced ko- cue- ten)

    Everybody else, which is A LOT of people: avoid statins like the plague.

    Here ya go, if everybody read this the drug companies would go insane with fear:

    http://www.westonaprice.org/modern-diseases/cardiovascular-disease/1687-myths-a-truths-about-cholesterol.html

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Wow, this is great, Roger! Thanks. :)
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    No Biggie Dakini. I hope other people can get this message. I don't want to go into the trouble I had by taking them: FOR NOTHING! because I'm embarrassed for trusting the MD AND not doing my own research. I'm still irked too.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    I'm embarrassed for trusting the MD AND not doing my own research. I'm still irked too.
    But you're on the right track, now, right? And the statins didn't do you any harm, hopefully. I think this forum provides a great public service with all the health info that comes up from time to time. Important stuff.
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    Yup Dakini, on the right track now. Thanks for asking. :) No problem. I just felt crummy, stopped taking them and felt better, go figure.

    What I just realized? I'm not sure but If you Google "Weston Price org" you won't get the WP website which I provided the link to above. I'm thinking I went to one of those counterfeit websites, one which had everything except the "Myths ...,of Cholesterol..." on it. I kept searching ONLY because I KNEW the essay was available. Who did that? Drug companies?! Maybe people should go to the link above and BOOK MARK it. Give it to people who wonder about statins.

  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Thank you Roger!
    Are they pills though?
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    You mean the statin drugs like Lipitor and Pravachol? Yes, they are pills Leon. The thing about pills? If they help you might want to take them. Genetically we are all different. Some of us would have been dead by now if this were the Middle Ages without modern medicine and the benefits it provides to some who need it. OTOH, I feel the same way you might feel about becoming"dependent" on such things. My advice (two cents)? Take your time and think about it, don't just make up your mind not to take pills and get stuck that way.

    May I add another interesting fact? The drug companies have had almost 20 years and billion$ of dollars to do studies on their statin products. Quite revealingly: There have been NO conclusive studies indicating that statin use reduces heart attacks and strokes for the general population. They have only been proven to help people who are already at risk via family history or previous incident of heart disease.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited March 2011
    OK, Leon? You say your cholesterol is high at 180+? You haven't SEEN "high"! I used to get cholesterol readings that were in the I-should-have-been-dead-last-month-already range. 250-300+. Trips to Russia had something to do with that. :D I'd bring it down to around 200 or 180, whatever, which I consider to be good levels. I'm still here. But my parents and grandparents were all long-lived, I don't recall cholesterol being much of a problem for any of them. Maybe your family's different. Never used statins. Just fish oil, guggul, lecithin (soy oil), that kind of thing.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Try googling Padma28.


    http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T444389.html

    http://www.healthypeach.com/ProductDetails.php/5369///Padma-28-Potentilla
  • DazzleDazzle
    edited March 2011
    Garlic is said to help maintain healthy chloresterol levels.

    .

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Yeah, but the side-effects can be distinctly anti-social..... :thumbdown:
  • DazzleDazzle
    Absolutely, lol ! However, its available in capsules which don't make stinky breath. :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2011
    You wanna bet??
    I bought some capsules which claimed to have had the pungency removed.

    All I can say is, don't believe everything you read..... :hrm:
  • DazzleDazzle
    I've started taking Boots own brand ones and they seem to be ok.
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    As I've said folks, cardiologists don't put nearly as much stock in total cholesterol numbers as they did even just a few years ago. It's the LDL-C particle size (which you get from the NMR test) that is much more predictive for coronary and vascular disease than your total cholesterol level, your triglycerides, or even your LDL raw number. People used to (and still do) walk around with total cholesterol numbers well into the 200s and live long healthy lives. They just never get their cholesterol checked. As mentioned, there is almost no indication that statin drugs prolong life (or quality thereof) for anyone who hasn't had an MI or stroke, unless there is a *strong* family history of those problems already, and even then it's not a huge difference. With all their side effects, I plan on staying off of them if at all possible.

    I've done a lot of research on this for myself, and have spoken with several cardiologists that I've worked with about it. So if anyone has questions, please feel free to PM me.
  • IronRabbitIronRabbit Veteran
    Adding a minimum of one cup - three servings recommended - of cooked whole grains daily to ones diet has been shown to reduce cholesterol levels up to 29%. Whole grains such as bulgar, brown rice, couscous, buckwheat, oatmeal, amaranth, millet, popcorn, barley and quinoa provide a lot of variety and can be incorporated in to recipes.
    image
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2011
    Quinoa in particular, seems to be a superPower grain - the kind the Fantastic Four and Wolverine probably eat for breakfast!

    Edited to add:
    I eat a lot of this, and roasted barley too! it's amazing stuff!
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Thanks everyone!
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    Quinoa is great indeed, you can replace rice with it. (i like the taste and texture better than rice.)

    also check out Chia, a super food that should be in everyone's diet.
    http://www.living-foods.com/articles/chia.html
    here is a couple paragraph from that link
    If you try missing a spoonful of Chia in a glass of water and leaving it for approximately 30 minutes or so, when you return the glass will appear to contain not seeds or water, but an almost solid gelatin. This gel-forming reaction is due to the soluble fiber in the Chia. Research believe this same gel-forming phenomenon takes place in the stomach when food containing these gummy fibers, known as mucilages, are eaten. The gel that is formed in the stomach creates a physical barrier between carbohydrates and the digestive enzymes that break them down, thus slowing the conversion of carbohydrates into sugar.

    In addition to the obvious benefits for diabetics, this slowing in the conversion of carbohydrates into sugar offers the ability for creating endurance. Carbohydrates are the fuel for energy in our bodies. Prolonging their conversion into sugar stabilizes metabolic changes, diminishing the surges of highs and lows creating a longer duration in their fueling effects.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Quinoa is great indeed, you can replace rice with it. (i like the taste and texture better than rice.)

    also check out Chia, a super food that should be in everyone's diet.
    http://www.living-foods.com/articles/chia.html
    here is a couple paragraph from that link
    If you try missing a spoonful of Chia in a glass of water and leaving it for approximately 30 minutes or so, when you return the glass will appear to contain not seeds or water, but an almost solid gelatin. This gel-forming reaction is due to the soluble fiber in the Chia. Research believe this same gel-forming phenomenon takes place in the stomach when food containing these gummy fibers, known as mucilages, are eaten. The gel that is formed in the stomach creates a physical barrier between carbohydrates and the digestive enzymes that break them down, thus slowing the conversion of carbohydrates into sugar.

    In addition to the obvious benefits for diabetics, this slowing in the conversion of carbohydrates into sugar offers the ability for creating endurance. Carbohydrates are the fuel for energy in our bodies. Prolonging their conversion into sugar stabilizes metabolic changes, diminishing the surges of highs and lows creating a longer duration in their fueling effects.
    Are you on a Raw Diet?
    I was considering a Raw Diet...
    Not sure if it matters or if it will help.
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited March 2011
    I did a raw diet a year ago for 2 months.

    was very interesting, discovering all kind of new recipes, ingredients and tastes.
    I don't know if it would make a big differences in the colesterol level but it certainly very healthy.

    Now i just eat a vegetarian diet. No meat no fish no eggs.
    Unless it's a special occasion (not going to annoy everyone ;) ).
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I believe Chia is not yet available from any UK retailer because it has not yet been approved by the Food Standards agency.
    But it is available on line.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    I did a raw diet a year ago for 2 months.

    was very interesting, discovering all kind of new recipes, ingredients and tastes.

    Now i just eat a vegetarian diet. No meat no fish no eggs.
    Unless it's a special occasion.
    Would you suggest doing a raw diet?
    I was considering doing it for Spiritual and Health reasons.
    At least a 30 day diet and then slowly go back to Veggie diet.
    I have done Veggie diet twice and couldn't handle it.
    What are your suggestions in going Veggie?
    Any resources that would help?
    Thank you!
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited March 2011
    I did a raw diet a year ago for 2 months.

    was very interesting, discovering all kind of new recipes, ingredients and tastes.

    Now i just eat a vegetarian diet. No meat no fish no eggs.
    Unless it's a special occasion.
    Would you suggest doing a raw diet?
    I was considering doing it for Spiritual and Health reasons.
    At least a 30 day diet and then slowly go back to Veggie diet.
    I have done Veggie diet twice and couldn't handle it.
    What are your suggestions in going Veggie?
    Any resources that would help?
    Thank you!
    Suggestion for eating veggie, my wife is an amazing cook.
    So the food just taste good, i don't feel like im missing anything.
    Been eating a veggie diet for couple years now.

    In my culture, we eat lots of potatoes and meat.
    So when i eat familiar food like potatoes today (baked/oven/mash/salads), it take care of my craving for traditional food.

    Veggie food can taste truly amazing, so my suggestion is to avoid just doing some same salad over and over again. Buy some recipe books and discover lots of new ingredients. Also perhaps try vegan restaurants to inspire you.

    Perhaps maybe a more gradual transition to a veggie diet would work better for you?

    About the Raw diet, I don't know if i really recommend it.
    The one i did was really hardcore, shocked my system and took two weeks to adjust.

    If you do change your diet to a raw or vegetarian diet, make sure you get all of the nutrients your body need, and take some extra vitamin B12.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2011
    Try googling Padma28.


    http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T444389.html

    http://www.healthypeach.com/ProductDetails.php/5369///Padma-28-Potentilla
    Fed, our gov't (US) won't allow us to import Padma 28 in commercial quantities. someone tried in the 1990's, and it was prohibited. :(
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    (Probably people could get it in small quantities for individual use. We'll see. Thanks for the link.) Padma 28 for those who don't know, is sort of a "roto-rooter" herbal compound that scrubs your cardiovascular system clean of occlusions. it saves lives, eliminating the need for expensive and stressful surgeries. To really get a good discussion of it, see the film, "The Knowledge of Healing", on Tibetan medicine. Available on DVD.
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    BTW, go Google more on what cholesterol actually is and does in the body. It's involved in an amazing number of processes all essential to life and good brain functioning. Again, it MAY be a good idea to lower it if you have heart disease running in your family or have had a heart attack yourself. Otherwise? It's good stuff! My mother has a HUGE cholesterol number (I forgot what it was), zero health problems, not an exercise nut, and she's still kicking in her 70s
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2011
    Yeah, my dad said his excess cholesterol saved his life, when he was having some serious problems after cancer treatment. Cholesterol isn't a bad thing. Anyway, Leon, aren't you a bit young to worry about it, except to follow a healthy diet and lifestyle, to set the stage for the future? You're 186? Piffle! Eat fish, salad oil, follow some of the other recommendations here, and keep an eye on it. Vegetable oils bring up the "good" cholesterol which helps balance out the "bad". Some docs say that it's the RATIO between good and bad that is important. Even though I've always had cholesterol levels through the roof, my ratio has always been very low, because of high "good" cholesterol. So that's the "school" I follow. Check you ratio. If it's around 3.5 or lower, you're good to go. :)
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    I work in the epidemiology of heart disease. The mechanistic connection between lipid levels and cardiovascular disorders is still somewhat obscure, though the correlation between them is strong. Certainly at age 44 and above, such cholesterol levels would imply increased risk. But since the causal relationship isn't clear, I would be extremely chary of extrapolating that to a 25 year old. I am not qualified to give medical advice, but if I were in this situation, I would be looking for informative statistics about the risk posed by high cholesterol in that age group. (Not just the risk now, but down the road.)
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    Turns out there's a fair bit of information about that already. It looks like you are at risk for later arterial damage. The first author of that paper told a journalist that cholesterol-lowering medication is probably not called for in most young adults with high cholesterol, but careful management of diet and exercise definitely is. On the other hand, it appears that that is simply the current standard of care: first treat early-onset high cholesterol with diet and exercise management, and only move to statins if that fails. (Sounds like that is what your doctor is doing.)

    If the statins don't cause you any annoying side effects, I wouldn't wait too long on starting them, if I were you. They are likely to substantially lower your risk of heart disease later in life. Of course if you find a way to lower your cholesterol naturally in the meantime, that would be preferable. I just wouldn't procrasinate on the artificial approach in the meantime.
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011


    If the statins don't cause you any annoying side effects, I wouldn't wait too long on starting them, if I were you. They are likely to substantially lower your risk of heart disease later in life.
    With all due respect and kindness. Please understand this is true ONLY for people with heart disease, heart attack OR a history of heart disease or heart attack in their family.

    Quite tellingly: after twenty years and billions of dollars of profit, the drug companies have not been able to produce a single study which proves cholesterol medications (statins) are a benefit for the general population who have "high" cholesterol (i.e. people who do NOT already have heart trouble).

  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    I suggest you take a look at the article Statin Therapy in Young Adults — Ready for Prime Time?. PM me if you can't get a copy, and maybe I can help you out. Summarizing the pro-statin information first page (it is a very balanced article, arguing against more widespread use of statins, but totally supports use of statins in a case like Leon's):
    1. Young adults (under 35) are at low short-term risk of heart disease, so standard of care is as I described above. By this standard, it seems that Leon would be on statins, or soon would be, because the first-line treatment of exercise and diet management doesn't seem to be helping.
    2. The only controversy among those familiar with the epidemiology of LDL and heart disease in young adults is whether statins should be applied more frequently in young adults, i.e. whether statins should also be prescribed for young people with high cholesterol before trying diet and exercise management.
    3. The longitudinal study I mentioned above established that persistent high cholesterol in young adults leads to atherosclerosis in middle age, which presumably increases risk of heart disease. Reduction of cholesterol levels using statins is likely to substantially mitigate this risk.
    4. Mice which are genetically engineered to have low LDL for their entire lives have dramatically lower heart disease rates (88% reduction.)
    5. Statin use in humans from middle age on leads to a 20-40% reduction in humans of heart disease, so statin use can definitely have a positive effect.
    the drug companies have not been able to produce a single study which proves cholesterol medications (statins) are a benefit for the general population who have "high" cholesterol (i.e. people who do NOT already have heart trouble).
    Presumably you are familiar with the CTT analyses (article available with free sign-up) and can point us to the evidence that its positive results come primarily from people who already have some sort of heart disease. That would be very interesting.
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011


    Here ya go for "interesting" :)

    I dunno fivebells. Statins create all sorts of changes in the body chemistry, they are intended to cause a chronic inflammation response, they're not harmless vitamins.

    My point is there is lots of HYPE with the result being the stuff is NEEDLESSLY overprescribed because People THINK taking statins is good insurance against heart trouble even though they are healthy and have no heart problems! It's NOT. How do I know? Went to website and found out.

    Below quote is from the actual Lipitor website (see phrase in the asterisks I added): www.lipitor.com


    "LIPITOR, along with diet, is clinically proven to reduce the risk of heart attack, stroke, certain kinds of heart surgeries, and chest pain in

    ************patients with heart disease or several common risk factors for heart disease.************ "


  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    ************patients with heart disease or several common risk factors for heart disease.************ "
    Gee, I wonder what those risk factors could be? Do you think elevated cholesterol could be one of them? :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    ....Anyway, Leon, aren't you a bit young to worry about it, except to follow a healthy diet and lifestyle, to set the stage for the future?
    You're never too young to be paranoid....!

    :lol:

    (J/K, Leon..... ;))
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited March 2011
    Leon, what do /you/ think of all this? You know what we think, now. I might suggest a Middle Way between Roger's and Fivebells' recommendations. Try for about 3 months taking some of the diet and supplement recommendations given above. Get tested, see if it's made a difference. If not, discuss statins with your doctor, if you're REALLY worried about it. But I bet that adding vegetable oils in the form of foods and oils, fiber (your burritos, if they're not fried), and cutting down on sweets (the insulin triggered by the sweets might be involved in the higher cholesterol), and getting exercise (walking daily, at least) will make a difference. I know a number of people who brought down their cholesterol by adding soy oil (lecithin), or fish oil, or guggul 2-3 times/daily to their diet. Good luck. Sounds like a great experiment. It's good to be aware and pro-active, and to set up good habits early in life. :)
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2011
    I am not willing to take pills at 25
    There are pills, and then there are pills. I agree that starting with "natural" supplements is a good way to start. Pharma should be more of a last resort. But if you can't even bring yourself to take supplements, then maybe add one high-oil food to your diet daily; one portion of fish, or one avocado, or one artichoke, for example. This, in addition to one salad (w/olive or similar oil) daily. And like C_W said, fiber also helps keep cholesterol under control. Oatmeal for breakfast (not the quick kind, the old-fashioned kind), brown & wild rice (I like the Bhutanese red rice), etc. Let us know how you do.

  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    ************patients with heart disease or several common risk factors for heart disease.************ "
    Gee, I wonder what those risk factors could be? Do you think elevated cholesterol could be one of them? :)
    No! That's the point. Lowering EVERYBODY'S cholesterol with statins would create a bigger pool of people with costly-to-insurance-company bad side effects. There are lots of people with very high cholesterol who have long healthy lifespans. You can find populations of people like that. The doctors SHOULD say if you ARE at risk for heart trouble the risk of taking the statins outweighs that heart disease risk.

    Again: statins are NOT recommended for everybody who has high cholesterol. It has NOT been shown to prevent heart attacks and heart disease for people who are not already at risk for it. High cholesterol by itself does NOT put you at risk for heart disease.

    I hope that helps. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. I'm not a real doctor. I just pretend to be one while I watch TV. :)





  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    Sorry your argument doesn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate, please?
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited March 2011

    The doctors SHOULD say if you ARE at risk for heart trouble the risk of taking the statins outweighs that heart disease risk.

    Again: statins are NOT recommended for everybody who has high cholesterol. It has NOT been shown to prevent heart attacks and heart disease for people who are not already at risk for it. High cholesterol by itself does NOT put you at risk for heart disease.
    This seems crystal clear to me. Leon isn't about to start gulping statins, anyway. But I'm curious as to whether statins are so widely prescribed in Europe, as they are here. Our medical system is notoriously corporate driven, often to the patient's detriment. Roger raises a good point; before rushing into the arms of Pharma, get multiple opinions. Better yet, find a European-trained MD in your area, and see what they recommend. And it's true, there are a couple of specialized tests that are better indicators of heart disease risk than the standard cholesterol tests. I've passed those tests with flying colors, in spite of what's considered to be high cholesterol.
  • RogerRoger
    Sorry your argument doesn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate, please?
    With all due respect and kindness, no. I believe I presented the evidence clearly. Not _my_ evidence but the prevailing evidence that's commonly accepted which leads to the ultimate conclusions about who should get and who should not get those statin drugs. Wishing you well. :)
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011

    This seems crystal clear to me.
    What helps me?

    There are no studies proving that giving statins to, say, 1 million randomly chosen people with high cholesterol will result in fewer heart attacks and strokes among those 1 million. If there were? The drug companies would be partying 24/7/365

    Of all the studies over 20 years the only thing they proved? If you give statins to 1 million people with high cholesterol and WITH family history of heart attack and stroke, or who have had such health issues, there will be fewer heart attacks and strokes among those people and only those people.

    Crazy stuff, huh?

    It's like selling a radar detector and __guaranteeing__ it will result in no speeding tickets as long as the purchaser of the detector goes the speed limit. Analogy: giving statins to everybody with high cholesterol and no risk factors for heart disease.

    VS.

    Selling a radar detector to a guy who's got several speeding tickets and telling him to be careful and watch his speedometer more. Analogy: giving statins to people with high cholesterol AND risk factors for heart disease

    VS.

    Driving around speeding without a radar detector. Analogy: not giving statins to people with high cholesterol and risk factors for heart disease trouble
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited March 2011
    Of all the studies over 20 years the only thing they proved? If you give statins to 1 million people with high cholesterol and WITH family history of heart attack and stroke, or who have had such health issues, there will be fewer heart attacks and strokes among those people and only those people.
    Let's not forget, this is about Leon. He doesn't make it 100% clear that he has a family history of heart disease, but he may. Still, statins at 25 seems extreme. Not to mention the risk of whatever side-effects building up in the body from such an early age. And if he tries the "natural" route for a few months and tests fine, the question will be moot. Happily. :)

    (So, are we done fighting about Leon's cholesterol treatment? There's something funny, but also awkward-feeling, about this huge fight that's broken out over something so personal as a member's cholesterol. )
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    Sorry your argument doesn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate, please?
    With all due respect and kindness, no. I believe I presented the evidence clearly. Not _my_ evidence but the prevailing evidence that's commonly accepted which leads to the ultimate conclusions about who should get and who should not get those statin drugs. Wishing you well. :)
    OK, here's what doesn't make sense to me:
    ************patients with heart disease or several common risk factors for heart disease.************ "
    Gee, I wonder what those risk factors could be? Do you think elevated cholesterol could be one of them? :)
    No! That's the point.
    What are you smoking? Elevated cholesterol has come up in study after study as a significant risk factor for heart disease. (I would bet every single relevant study.) Taking statins has been conclusively demonstrated to lower cholesterol, and, as I mentioned before, conclusively demonstrated to substantially lower rates of heart disease. So your argument that statins are only appropriate for people with heart disease seems like a total non sequitur.
    Lowering EVERYBODY'S cholesterol with statins would create a bigger pool of people with costly-to-insurance-company bad side effects.
    Unless those side affects are at least 5% as bad as heart attack and stroke, that's a red herring from a utilitarian perspective.
    There are lots of people with very high cholesterol who have long healthy lifespans. You can find populations of people like that.
    Maybe, but the rate of heart disease among people with elevated cholesterol is substantially higher, in Western countries. (I assume Leon is from a Western country.)
    The doctors SHOULD say if you ARE at risk for heart trouble the risk of taking the statins outweighs that heart disease risk.

    Again: statins are NOT recommended for everybody who has high cholesterol. It has NOT been shown to prevent heart attacks and heart disease for people who are not already at risk for it. High cholesterol by itself does NOT put you at risk for heart disease.
    Ah, the "If I tell you three times, it's true" school of rhetoric...
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited March 2011
    Maybe, but the rate of heart disease among people with elevated cholesterol is substantially higher, in Western countries. (I assume Leon is from a Western country.)
    OK, I guess we're not done fighting over Leon's treatment. :rolleyes:

    Just for the record, he's not from a Western country. Never assume. In my observation, that's one problem with doctors and other health care professionals; they don't ask enough questions, and assume a lot. But to be fair and honest, I'll drop the other shoe, and say he's from Ukraine, and there's lots of heart disease there and in Russia. Mostly diet-related, however. AFAIK
  • RogerRoger
    edited March 2011
    Taking statins has been conclusively demonstrated to lower cholesterol, and, as I mentioned before, conclusively demonstrated to substantially lower rates of heart disease.
    Yes of course but ONLY for people at risk for having heat disease in the first place. High cholesterol BY ITSELF is not considered enough of a risk. Please re read that. Then show us the studies you refer to.

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