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Rob Bell & a new Christian perspective
taiyaki
Veteran
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=77024018179262526#
I was raised Christian and now consider myself a Buddhist. So reading up on Christian mystics and Christians in general who somewhat marry Buddhist ideas with Christianity interests me.
Rob Bell points out that there is no distinction during the times when the bible was written...between what is spiritual and what isn't. Rob Bell asserts that everything is spiritual. So to make a distinction between what is god and what isn't is wrong. And he points out that the kingdom of heaven is the present moment.
It's an interesting view and I'd love for you guys to watch and give insights to where you agree/disagree.
Thank you.
I was raised Christian and now consider myself a Buddhist. So reading up on Christian mystics and Christians in general who somewhat marry Buddhist ideas with Christianity interests me.
Rob Bell points out that there is no distinction during the times when the bible was written...between what is spiritual and what isn't. Rob Bell asserts that everything is spiritual. So to make a distinction between what is god and what isn't is wrong. And he points out that the kingdom of heaven is the present moment.
It's an interesting view and I'd love for you guys to watch and give insights to where you agree/disagree.
Thank you.
0
Comments
First of all, I couldn't bring myself to watch all of the video. I'm too old and lazy to sit still for chirpy, up-beat, agreement-prone instructors. OK -- some like chocolate, some like vanilla.
Second: As a Buddhist, I am a big fan of people investigating their own history. Without digging in and digging down, the likelihood of happiness or any sort of meaningful peace is drastically reduced and the possibility of war -- both interior and exterior -- rises exponentially. I live, and perhaps you do to, in a culturally Christian country (USA). If I had been brought up a Christian, I would want to look into that carefully. Since I was not brought up Christian, it still behooves me to investigate the environment in which I live. I probably have not done a very good job, but that's part of why I am writing ... so that you can see my flaws, consider what a nitwit I may be, and vow not to be the same sort of nitwit.
Third: While I can respect some Christians, I find Christianity an exercise for beginners at best. No rancor here -- it's just my chocolate. What I distrust about Christianity as a peace-bringer is that it relies on belief. Belief, in my experience, just expresses doubt ... the greater the belief, the greater the doubt. While it is true that everyone who sets off on a spiritual path begins with belief and hope, the experience that practice brings over the years leaves belief in the dust. Experience trumps belief and it trumps hope. Belief implies that there is something else, some other something or other. It implies separation. God is separate from man, for example, or enlightenment is separated from delusion or spiritual life is separated from whatever the rest of life is called. To make belief the on-going foundation of that which promises an understanding of who and what we honestly are is to offer a lighted match to a child in a pool of gasoline. It is mistaken in a serious way. As I say, belief may be a good beginning, but it is a poor road to what might be called salvation.
Fourth: Ecumenism -- and I have done my hitch with that particular notion -- is a social function ... you be nice to me and I'll be nice to you. We may smile and applaud when we find similarities in our taste in ice cream, but in the end, ecumenism won't hold up. Each of us has work to do and that work is not always patty-cake pleasant. An image I have always liked is that of Jesus walking into the desert. He was not holding hands with anyone when he went. He went alone. It was dry. It was hot. It threatened to kill him. If he was not afraid, I doubt if he was a man. There was no coffee and cake and convivial schmoozing. He went alone ... and so do we. True, what appears to be a threatening atmosphere is punctuated by bright lights and wondrous openings -- truly miraculous stuff -- but nine chances out of ten they were delusions that sink into the sands. Each individual chooses a way and then exhibits a lot of courage, a lot of patience, a lot of doubt and a lot of determination. This is no realm for sissies or chirpy instructors. There is a promise in all of this hard work, but to name it consigns that promise to a world of chirping agreements. If you want to know, you've got to go ... go where your own particular heaven and hell guide you.
Fifth: Spiritual endeavor is not a debating society. What I do -- and I prefer Zen practice -- is just what I choose. People sometimes get stuck in their agreements and disagreements, their ecumenism or their break-the-other-guy's-arm extremism. It can be pretty subtle (really, this is good for you!), but it's so reassuring to agree and disagree with others that walking into the desert goes begging and there is no experience to actualize the peace and prosperity anyone might seek. The desert doesn't agree or disagree with anyone. Peace doesn't agree or disagree with anyone. The desert is just the desert. You are just you. I am just I. Ice cream comes in flavors -- no big deal -- and the object of spiritual endeavor is just to acknowledge and actualize your own true flavor. People who believe in the desert (the heavens and hells we can chirp about) are a dime a dozen. People who actualize it are rare as hen's teeth.
Sixth: As I say, I don't disagree with the Christian culture in which I find myself. I certainly don't agree with it either. But I do allow myself the small hope that all of the believable chirping we have done and will do results is some investigation and realization. Not MY realization or actualization ... just realization and actualization that requires no belief and relies on nothing whatsoever. Let's not run around saying "everything is spiritual." Let's muster the effort it takes to "make it so, Number One."
Sorry for so much blither. Obviously I am someone with too much time on his hands.
Best wishes.
i find that if your "faith" in a religion makes your life and those around you better than good for you. if not move on. and i do think that most people use religion as a crutch. even the buddhists. mainstream christianity (eh. shrugs shoulders).
gnostics and christian mystics (pretty interesting stuff). it's also nice to read what "jesus christ" was pointing to. though i know it's really hard to get out of the mindset that it's all rubbish.
you're quite the thinker and thank you for you input.
Good well written post. Experience does trump faith and belief everytime. The problem that I always have had with mainstream Christianity is that lacks that necessary work that you allude to. For the most all you have to do is believe in one thing, no work, no effort, no walking out into the desert alone. To me that trip we take all by ourselves is the beginning of spiritual practice.
With metta,
Todd
i do remember a sermon once in which he described his experience with mediation. he was talking about how we need to slow down and pay more attention in the moment to moment because otherwise we miss things. he told the story of one particular guy who was a workaholic and always rushed around. well one day, he sat down to meditate and suddenly realized, "holy crap! my back hurts really bad!" turns out he paid so little attention to himself that he didn't even realize what was going on with his body.
they used to post most sermons on their website, if you're interested:
http://marshill.org/
i found myself thinking, rob is an incredibly intellectual man struggling to explain the world through the confines of christianity. i have no doubt that he has had this same thought himself, because in the end he talks about how reality is all about how you choose to view the world around you. it appears to me that he has stood on both sides of the fence and has determined that his life would be more meaningful if he had faith in god, jesus, and the bible. and on one level, he is right to do so. we are now at the point where science cannot explain all phenomena, the best we can do is describe what we see, but we do not truly understand it. his passion and beliefs are of a christian origin, so he marries these ideas with a concept that seems eerily close to "intelligent design," although he never uses those words.
i really enjoyed all of the scientific facts and his explanation of quantum physics was very helpful/interesting to me as well. but i think the more buddhist answer is, "well that's all fine and dandy, and some might even say UNCANNY, but what does it matter? let's get back to the NOW..." i did feel a certain wonder at the precarious balance on earth that if changed even a little, life would cease to exist. it's amazing, but that doesn't mean i suddenly claim faith in god and the bible. but i did however enjoy his point on god's commandment to moses "to be here"
like i said before, i may not agree with everything rob says, but at the heart of it all, we definitely agree. i appreciate the video post and i encourage everyone else on here to watch it if you have the time. i truly believe that if more christians were of the sort as rob bell, the world would be a better place. and since america (especially western michigan) is predominantly christian, this allows him great access to teach love and acceptance in a format that the general population is comfortable with. at the heart of his sermons are usually ideas that are really no different than what most buddhists believe. although i feel buddhism to be my spiritual path and i may disagree with him on some levels, i am very glad that he is out there doing what he does because his congregation makes allies between those of differing faiths instead of enemies. very cool stuff.
1. Spiritual = non-corporeal
2. Spiritual = having to do with spirits
3. Spiritual = sacred
Every Mediterranean and Mid-Eastern culture in Biblical times had all three concepts and distinguished between the spiritual and the non-spiritual. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any culture, past or present, that doesn't or didn't have all three concepts.
He might have done better to stick with hermeneutics. The shortest parable in the gospels has Jesus saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a woman who mixes flour and leavening, and when she is finished it's impossible to separate one from the other.
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Taiyaki -- As a small footnote, perhaps, not only are there warnings about over-intellectualizing or finding an imagined refuge and equally imaginary surcease among concepts and beliefs.
There are similar warnings about falling prey to comforting feelings. An old Zen teacher, Ta Hui, once observed approximately, "I have always had a great vow that I would rather spend an eternity in hell than to ever portray Zen as a human emotion."
Intellect and emotion are fine capacities. The question that then arises is, "Who is capable?"
who isnt? the point is to use our intellect to transcend it. we have to fall into the traps as much as humanly possible to realize that there are no traps other than the ones we make in our minds.
to even talk about zen is a grave mistake. yet this mistake has been done.
My insight is it is the most excellent thing to discover & find the Buddha.
My insight is the Buddha is to be "killed" after the Buddha is found (rather than beforehand).
With metta
Secondly, saying that the Jews didn't have the concept of "spiritual" because they didn't have a word for it is like saying that English speakers don't have the concept of "snow that lies on the ground" because, unlike at least one Inuit language, we don't have a distinct word for it.
On a related note, there was no Hebrew word for "spiritual" because there was no Hebrew word with the literal meaning "spirit". However, the Jews had the concept of "spirit" and they expressed it metaphorically with "ruah", which means wind or breath.
And finally, in any culture with the concept of free will, the concept that not absolutely everything comes from god will also exist. I agree, but if someone says that all things are from god, then they are aware of the concept that not all things are from god, even if they don't believe it.
I have nothing against Rob Bell. I'm also aware that Christian ministers have to produce a new sermon every week and the result is that not everything they say makes sense. As I've pointed out, he can support his point with other arguments. But this argument doesn't stand up, either logically or factually.
and as far as the "spirituality" thing goes, i can't really comment any further. personally, the bible's concepts on spirituality matter very little to me. i was just repeating what he said in the video because i didn't think that you had watched it. i understand if you don't want to watch a nearly hour and a half long video looking for it.
Seems to be a minister who takes his call to teach seriously.
Very interesting.
The one thing which put me off is that : some science was a bit misinformed but still being used to strengthen his point of view.
If I had to produce fifty sermons a year, I probably wouldn't do as well as Rob Bell does. I'm just being a geek. :-)
On the more general topic of Bell's influence on his congregation, I think the members of a congregation tend to have a certain set of beliefs or principles, and a minister who tried to move the congregation away from those beliefs would get fired. Successful ministers know how to preach to the choir. But I think sermons have an important role in giving the congregation examples and lessons in critical thinking, based on the shared beliefs. So if Bell is showing his congregation how to use the principle of love in critical thinking, that's.....hard to complain about. :-)
BTW, only my XP box is set up to view vidoes, and it's wedged right now. Until I unwedge it, no videos for me. It's been wedged for a couple of weeks now, so apparently debugging Windows is not high on my priority list.