Your Meditation Practice

meh_

When you guys meditate, do you ever become truly free from thoughts that disturb your mindfullness? Or do they just fade into the background. The latter of which seems to be the case for me.

I find it incredibly hard to focus entirely on the breath, without distractions etc. But it does seem to get easier as time goes by.

I mean, even when I focus on my breath - if my mind seemed pretty clear, then I start thinking about it !!!

Cloud

Well the point isn't to make thoughts go away. It's to notice them arising and passing and not get caught up in them. They're not you; they're just coming and going as they please.

meh_

Well the point isn't to make thoughts go away. It's to notice them arising and passing and not get caught up in them. They're not you; they're just coming and going as they please.

What is a *thought*??

taiyaki

if something else intrigues you other than the breath, you can go watch that as well.

there is no "goal" in meditation. the purpose is to watch stuff. watch your thoughts, feelings, etc without judgements.
and if you get lost in a thought and you miraculously wake up from that thought, be thankful.

for your awareness works all by itself with or without your help.

meh_

if something else intrigues you other than the breath, you can go watch that as well.

there is no "goal" in meditation. the purpose is to watch stuff. watch your thoughts, feelings, etc without judgements.
and if you get lost in a thought and you miraculously wake up from that thought, be thankful.

for your awareness works all by itself with or without your help.

'To watch stuff without judgements':

I smell something - and it smells like curry.
I judged the smell. How do I *not* do that?

fivebells

When you guys meditate, do you ever become truly free from thoughts that disturb your mindfullness?

This happens sometimes, but it is an ancillary development, and is temporary

Or do they just fade into the background. The latter of which seems to be the case for me.

That's an acceptable development when you're developing concentration.

I find it incredibly hard to focus entirely on the breath, without distractions etc.

Be careful not to confuse the method with the results. The method is to bring the attention back to the breath when it wanders. The eventual result will eventually be capacity to sustain attention on the object of meditation, sustaining attention is not the method.

meh_

"Be careful not to confuse the method with the results. The method is to bring the attention back to the breath when it wanders. The eventual result will eventually be capacity to sustain attention on the object of meditation, sustaining attention is not the method."

That has cleared hell of a lot up for me.
Thanks

taiyaki

if you make a judgement, don't take it seriously.

the monkey mind says a lot of things. things that seem wise, things that seem stupid.

don't trust any "concept" or word or picture. for they are all mental constructions.

PURE EXPERIENCE moment to moment is what meditation is all about. if you make a comment okay. move on.

buddhajunkie

don't trust any "concept" or word or picture. for they are all mental constructions.

PURE EXPERIENCE moment to moment is what meditation is all about. if you make a comment okay. move on.

It should be pointed out that many people have a problem attaining "pure experience" without the use of concepts. For example, mental noting is a common technique that involves labeling certain experiences as you recognize and remain conscious of them. So you might see a chain of phenomena and note: "image... thinking... anger... fading... impermanence..."

However, your point is correct, that ultimately it is the experience, and not your labeling of it, that is important. However, the labeling process is often useful to help aim the consciousness that the experience.

fivebells

That has cleared hell of a lot up for me. Thanks

NP. You might find this article helpful. It covers the same ground in more detail.

dorjeesamten

from the sounds of it you are trying to achieve shamatha. and the point of shamatha is not to be free from these "thoughts" that you are talking about. The point is to have such concentration on one object that those other thoughts dont ever even come up. single pointed concentration, so if the breath is boring you try and use something more difficult, like the image of the buddha in tushita.

dorjeesamten

although i wouldnt recommend reaching full shamatha if you plan on doing tantra,and you need tantra to reach enlightenment in this life time.

compassionate_warrior

you need tantra to reach enlightenment in this life time.

Is the enlightened state one reaches via tantra a lasting, permanent enlightenment, or does one have to repeat the ritual regularly?

mithril

Nah, they don't even fade into the background.

For me, they are just becoming more, umm, voluntary?

Kinda like in the beginning, if i thought up something it'd be really mine, i'd have to do something about it, or not do something about it, or judge it, or this or that...

Now they are becoming more and more like fancy chocolate on an expensive plate, theres a variety, and you may pick one if you like, or the other, or you might just behave like your a spoiled person and just walk right past all of them in your expensive dress, and go back to the breath.. kinda like even before i really think of it i can decide whether to drop it or take it because it is important...

But not that they are any less vivid, or important, or more silent because of it...

^^ I thought this would be easier to explain before i started writing...

Besides, now i'm sure again i'm doing it all wrong XD

fivebells

although i wouldnt recommend reaching full shamatha if you plan on doing tantra,and you need tantra to reach enlightenment in this life time.

You're right about the first part. Everyone starts with shamatha, but it is not the end in itself. It's a good place for meh_ to start, though, at the very least for a month or two.

Cloud

That's funny, need tantra for enlightenment in this lifetime. It's always this lifetime, plenty of people reach(ed) enlightenment without tantric practices.

fivebells

Actually everyone ends up doing something functionally equivalent to the tantric practices, if they go far enough. Most people who recite the "this lifetime" rote about tantra don't know what they're talking about, though.

Cloud

What exactly do you mean?

fedaalis

That has cleared hell of a lot up for me. Thanks

NP. You might find this article helpful. It covers the same ground in more detail.

Where have you and that article been all this time I've been practicing???

fivebells

Don't know, but I'm here to help now.

JeremyKS1

I usually just note when I have drifted off and return to the breath. Drift off again, note it, return to the breath. Repeat until the bell rings.

I have found that when I am meditatively “in the zone” it’s as if the meditator has split from the rest of the mind. Thoughts still come, but they seem like something happening “outside” (or perhaps they are “inside” and the meditator is “outside”, who knows?).

In the first situation, I am compelled to ride the raft down the river and in the other I am sitting on the bank watching the raft drift by.

I don’t know if any of that means anything, but it is my experience.

compassionate_warrior

Actually everyone ends up doing something functionally equivalent to the tantric practices, if they go far enough. Most people who recite the "this lifetime" rote about tantra don't know what they're talking about, though.

What exactly do you mean?

I'd like to see this cleared up, because "Enlightenment in this lifetime", I thought, was pretty much the raison d'etre of Tantric Buddhism. :-/

Dakini

etc. But it does seem to get easier as time goes by.

That's the key. Just keep practicing, and be patient. You're already seeing progress, take that as encouragement.

createrboy

Please forgive me , I am not good in eng-language . I think meditation practice (contemplation or vipasana meditation ) is made base on your dhamma knowledge . Only I can suggest is to read a book.I am sure this book supports your dhamma knowledge.
(Dr. Mehm Tin Mon: The Essence of Buddha-Abhidhamma

createrboy

first you should read http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu sayadaw.htm
and , http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhidhamma_and_practice.htm

Tikal2012

OK. What your doing is one-pointed, absorption concentration. If you practice focusing on the breath enough you will develop very strong concentration, and due to this concentration you will experience a pleasant abiding. You've got everything going correctly, you just need to add one extra step. What is that extra step? You need to relax. Why do you need to relax? Because when your mind comes into contact with a thought, a feeling will arise. After this feeling arises, craving will arise. Craving is whenever your mind likes a feeling or doesn't like a feeling. It will always manifest as tension and tightness in your mind and in your body. This craving will then cause your mind to begin thinking. What we need to start doing is letting go of these thoughts (which in your meditation it seems you are already doing), and then you need to relax. Why is it so important to relax after you let go of the thoughts? Because when you relax you are letting go of craving, the cause of suffering (2nd noble truth). With no craving in your mind you are now experiencing the cessation of suffering (3rd noble truth). Now that you have let go of the clinging and then the craving, you want to return to your object of meditation, which as the Buddha taught in the mindfulness of the body sutta is breathing in and relaxing, and breathing out and relaxing. Now you will have let go of the thoughts, but they won't be waiting there in the back of your head any more waiting for when you stop meditating. Why? Because you let go of the cause of those thoughts (craving). So in short, what is the key to not having the thoughts remain in your mind? You have to let go of the cause of those thoughts - craving. Good luck. . .

NOTaGangsta

Thoughts go away in due time if you keep up your breath counting practice. The more difficult is when your mind gets tired and sleepy, dreamy thoughts will also come through that way.

Sitting Meditation is only one method. Prostration to a short sutra is also a good practice. Like the heart sutra or 8 realisation of a Bodhisattva etc.