The Five Hindrances

LaBowe · May 2010

I am currently studying the Five Hindrances to Meditation and have read (can’t quite recall where) that these are positive mind-body energies which only become hindrances though conditioned habits (poor)? In an effort to fully understand and come to grips with them is it too simple to consider the converse of each of the hindrances is the positive/healthy state i.e. Lovingkindness corrupts into “Aversion” , Trust/Openness becomes “Doubt” etc etc., <o>:p></o>:p>
<o>:p> </o>:p>
Thanks for any insight…… <o>:p></o>:p>

Drop · May 2010

Different things work for different people of course, but;

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Siau/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_filelist.xml"><style>  </style> Meditation Hindrances

Sensual Craving
Malice
Sloth
Anxiety
Doubt

<o></o>
The opposites would be;

Sensual Disgust
Lovingness
Enthusiasm
Peace of Mind
Faith

I’m not sure that contemplating those would do the trick even if one could call upon them by will. I suspect looking into the causes of them would be more beneficial in that once the real cause comes to light, like the vampires they are, they dissolve.

The one supreme error (or "father of all sin") is merely Presumption, a type of lust. From that one mental error, all other errors are seeded and fostered. By contemplating the cause of those more famous hindrances, the error of presumption within them is exposed. Being clear about something is the opposite of being presumptuous thus the entire chain of mental error dissolves. All vampires perish when the father of them all perishes.

Since presumption is the state in which you are cast from birth,

My advice;

Presume that you actually understand nothing (mind)
Presume that you actually care about nothing (heart)

..and your there.

patbb · May 2010

Drop wrote: »

Different things work for different people of course, but;

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Siau/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/02/clip_filelist.xml"><style>  </style> Meditation Hindrances
Sensual Craving

Malice

Sloth

Anxiety

Doubt

 <o></o>
The opposites would be;
Sensual Disgust

Lovingness

Enthusiasm

Peace of Mind

Faith

Sensual Disgust is still craving.

but craving to not have something.

mettafou · May 2010

is it craving, or counter conditioning?

patbb · May 2010

mettafou wrote: »

is it craving, or counter conditioning?

both... potentially.
it is craving, and you can conceivably condition yourself to react in this fashion.

Vekin · May 2010

My understanding is that sensual disgust isn't really straight up disgust, but rather demystification of human beauty. For example, you see a hot girl (Sorry for the onesided example.) You don't have to convince yourself to be disgusted by her beauty or sexiness, or what have you, but rather you recognize that the aspects of her that you're attracted to are flesh and bone. Her breasts are made of fatty tissue and mammary glands and blood vessels. Her face is made of cartilage, muscle, bone, eye balls, and the like. Her belly is a muscle entombed container filled with intestines and fecal matter. That sort of thing.

Drop · May 2010

The OP inquired about using contemplation of the opposites of the noted 5 hindrances. It is merely semantics, but the opposite of a direction is still a direction.

Sensual Craving refers to a lusting toward a sensual object.
Sensual Disgust refers to a lusting away from a sensual object.

Lusting, by definition, is an error of awareness. As a short practice, one can use one error to counter another much like one poison can be used to counter another. Leaning left can correct for being pushed right. What is "Good or Bad" depends on the state of the being.

Perfection, Tathagata, is the only thing of which one cannot have too much.

mettafou · May 2010

sensual Craving refers to a lusting toward a sensual object.
Sensual Disgust refers to a lusting away from a sensual object.

Lusting, by definition, is an error of awareness. As a short practice, one can use one error to counter another much like one poison can be used to counter another. Leaning left can correct for being pushed right. What is "Good or Bad" depends on the state of the being.

the 32 parts contemplation is given for combatting lust, and results in right concentration. are you refuting this as a means, or just pointing out the imperfection juxtaposed with nibbana? what would you suggest?

Drop · May 2010

mettafou wrote: »

the 32 parts contemplation is given for combatting lust, and results in right concentration. are you refuting this as a means, or just pointing out the imperfection juxtaposed with nibbana? what would you suggest?

I was just explaining the potential consequences of using the opposites, as requested by the OP.

MY personal position is;

Drop wrote: »

Since presumption is the state in which you are cast from birth,

My advice;

Presume that you actually understand nothing (mind)
Presume that you actually care about nothing (heart)

..and your there.

I might add that the 32 contemplations has little effect on me personally because of how I assess value/concern/beauty.

mettafou · May 2010

Since presumption is the state in which you are cast from birth,

My advice;

Presume that you actually understand nothing (mind)
Presume that you actually care about nothing (heart)

..and your there.

does this eliminate the 10 fetters?

Drop · May 2010

mettafou wrote: »

does this eliminate the 10 fetters?

Well there is an interesting question.

The ten fetters include doubt and ignorance as fetters or hindrances. It would depend upon the object of doubt. If you have doubt whether you should meditate at all, then such doubt is a hindrance to meditating. But the lack of certainty in other matters tends more to help encourage stepping back and meditating so as to "clear the mind" of confusions.

The other 8 common fetters are all dissolved entirely by the acceptance that one truly does not care about anything whatsoever, even breathing or not breathing nor accepts that anything he believes to be true necessarily is true.

Keep in mind we are only talking about mediation practice, not a philosophy for life.

belief in an individual self <sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference"></sup>
doubt or uncertainty
rites and rituals <sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference"></sup>
sensual desire<sup id="cite_ref-6" class="reference"></sup>
malice<sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference"></sup>
lust for material existence<sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference"></sup>
lust for divine existence
pride<sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference"></sup>
restlessness<sup id="cite_ref-10" class="reference"></sup>
ignorance

mettafou · May 2010

because one doesn't care or notice, etc. does that mean these potentials have been eliminated? consider the confusion of aggregates, and ignorance of impermanence. such understandings culminating in higher paths and fruits eliminate potentials. maybe letting go is either a prerequisite stage, or a stage of nibbana that follows from comprehension of dukkha?

Drop · May 2010

mettafou wrote: »

because one doesn't care or notice, etc. does that mean these potentials have been eliminated?

At that moment, certainly.

mettafou wrote: »

consider the confusion of aggregates, and ignorance of impermanence. such understandings culminating in higher paths and fruits eliminate potentials. maybe letting go is either a prerequisite stage, or a stage of nibbana that follows from comprehension of dukkha?

I agree with that. We have been discussing merely "how to get there", not "how to be there".

Every ascension requires 3 fundamental phases;

1) establishment (getting there)
2) maintenance (keeping there)
3) protection (ensuring there)

In this case, we are discussing establishment of an extremely calm, mundane spirit (meditative). Keeping the spirit calm is another issue. Protecting the spirit from critical interference is yet another issue involving society as a whole and Momentum ((:D)).

mettafou · May 2010

so your not talking about nibbana as in stream entry, etc. when you say
"..and your there." nibbana eliminates potentials for fetters, regardless of society, and doesn't apply to you or there of course. how do you view beauty? was that conditioned too? how is it more skillful than 32 parts?

Drop · May 2010

mettafou wrote: »

so your not talking about nibbana as in stream entry, etc. when you say
"..and your there."

Correct. I was referring to getting to the stream, getting to the state of calmness needed for meditation.

mettafou wrote: »

nibbana eliminates potentials for fetters, regardless of society, and doesn't apply to you or there of course.

The "stream" is the flow of Tathagata and to enter that stream requires participation, motion. And to participate requires caring to do so.

"For what purpose shall I move or think at all?"

Until you answer that question, you are lost in a river that you cannot know. Until you stop moving or thinking at all, you cannot discover and see clearly as why you should start to do anything. Gautama took this same path. Until you clearly and fully see what is gained by not doing, the doing is in doubt and without compass; a cloudy night sky drifting on the ocean of life.

mettafou wrote: »

how do you view beauty? was that conditioned in the same way as viewing with reference to the 32 parts?

No MY assessment of beauty is entirely by rationale. I am not at all liberal about what is or is not beautiful. I do not dictate Dharma.

The "why should I" thoughts include why beauty is beautiful. Conditioning it to be so is deceiving the heart by a presumptuous mind and is the persistence of the insanity of Man.

Beauty is not your choice to declare any more than your purpose fore they are both already prepared for you before you are even created to serve them. Beauty is merely showing you the way as a clue or signal. Tathagata is the resolve of the puzzle and can be expressed as;

Clarify, Verify, and Remember the Hopes and Threats toward the Maximum Momentum of Harmony for the Living.

That is the divine spirit that gathers the dust unto Man and creates all Life, the Whole Spirit, Tathagata.

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