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Marriage
What does buddhism say about dealing with the difficulties of marriage?
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This is why we as practising Buddhists, opt to go on retreats. we shed the everyday hindrances in order to better understand our objectives.
What obstacles to your practice are you experiencing in your marriage?
She attacks me with normal aggression and irritation and because of my upbringing i get real defensive and aggress back. I try to breath its just the attacks are so sudden and overwhelming. It seems that she is unstable but then once i react i am the unstable one, This all is making my head hurt and im overwhelmed. I just want to have peace between us. She has threatened divorce and i don't know why she wont follow through with it.
My friggin head aches from all this complicated drama. I try to just let it pass and practice impermanence in relation to all the burning fire. but sometimes it seems that the negative statements she makes are never going to stop. I know this is not typical of me because i usually have a lot of helpful insight into buddhist practice. But when it comes to my marriage im just baffeled and stuck .
Whew. I don't even know what that all is about , but maybe someone can have compassion and look into it with me.
Sorry to hear about your troubles, treederwright.
Metta meditation might help, starting with thoughts of somebody or something that you love dearly, and following with love towards your feelings of anger and defensiveness, and then towards your wife...
It's ok to feel defensive, it's ok to feel angry - just don't let those feelings spill over into verbal or physical abuse - that's where mindfulness can help. As soon as those feelings arise next time, notice them, label them and let go. Stop yourself for a moment when you are about to say something hurtful. First and foremost, you are hurting yourself. Do you HAVE to respond to all the angry things your wife says? If so, why?
Hope you will work it out. Metta to you and your wife.
Again im being super personal but i guess what goes around comes around.
i've heard that we have to teach others how we want and should be treated . I feel that if i keep letting her say hurtful stuff im going to feel so low about me that i won't have a me to bring to the relationship ( conventionally. I know the concepts i just need practical application of them to this particular dukkha) So in a way the only way i know to defend myself is to yell back. I grew up in a home for years my mother just screamed and screamed at me. and i took it. Now i feel like i can't be around a person who yells ( when she yells) but i also love her with a deeper mind that isn't taking record. Like i said very conflicted.
Whew indeed, it sounds like a lot of energy is colliding between you and your wife! On one hand, its great, it means there is certainly a lot going on between the two of you.... but of course, it sounds intensely painful.
I think the best option, if you can manage it, is to find a teacher. No matter how insightful a post or article might be, there is an evolving quality to speaking with a teacher... they can help you deal with the confusion very directly, and cut through the general "she attacks me" into the specific causes and conditions that you are suffering from.
From where I am, it sounds like you are inappropriately making her words about you. This behavior strengthens our sense of 'self' and causes us to often abandon equanimity and loving-kindness. For instance, when others are suffering and they project a cause of that suffering on to us, we either accept it or reject it as a an attack against 'us'. Of course, there is no 'us' really, but we forget in that moment.
I also feel you could do metta practice for your wife. In the moment she is suffering, it is possible for you to see that suffering, embrace her appropriately, and help her feel loved and safe in the moment. Often, saying nothing, taking their hand and simply being with them can work wonders to validate and soothe their troubled emotions.
In correlation to this, if we try to point to our view on the true source of a person's suffering ("This anger you have is not about me, dear, its about your unhappiness in XXXXXX") then it can be very invalidating and compound the whirlwind. It is usually best to abandon our drive to help redirect their mind, and simply help to soothe it with our silent but powerful compassion.
It sounds as though the drama is a game that you've both been stuck in, passing the hot coal back and forth to each other, then crying out at the pain. Its normal for us to do that kind of thing, especially when we have not spent time dissolving our sense of self. By working with ourselves in that way, we make plenty of room in our minds and hearts for others to express their pains without our instinctive need to take it personally. As the one here at the board, you are in a place to lead by example, and love her when she needs it most. I would not suggest you try to help her through instruction.
I wonder, if you just sit and observe her insults, and perhaps take her hand and tell her you love her deeply... how long would her whirlwind keep blowing? If you don't feed it, often it will exhaust itself rather quickly.
With warmth,
Matt
Don't hate to sound bitter. You are bitter and that is where you are. It's honest.
Before I say anything I would like to address my qualifications to speak on this issue. My wife and I have had a terrible, terrible marriage. It became abusive on both sides and I drowned myself in a bottle to the point it got me arrested. We both talked with divorce attorneys and concluded that with our 4 kids and other issues divorce was unaffordable. We were simply stuck with each other even though we genuinely hated each other and seethed with anger, rage actually every single day.
In other words I can empathize with you. I can understand everything you are feeling because they were my feelings. In my case things probably were even more desperate than is true in your case.
Many things helped, but by far the biggest thing that helped put us on a healthy path was empathy. I learned that were were caught up in a karmic death trap. I wasn't hearing a word she said because I already 'knew' what she meant. She didn't hear a word I said because she already 'knew' what I meant. She would be angry toward me and I would be angry toward her ad nauseum.
The only thing that broke the cycle was empathy. I knew I was hurting, but empathy allowed me to see her pain as well. I knew that I wasn't a bad person, I was simply dealing with more pain than I knew how to handle. Empathy informed me she also wasn't a bad|insane person, she was also dealing with more pain than she knew how to handle.
I could go into more detail, but won't unless you wish to ask here or in private instead I will share with you a technique that has surprised me with how effective it is. I actually 'stole' this technique with minor variation from Thich Nhat Hanh.
Anytime I become mindful that I am experiencing any emotion|mental state that is on the anger continuum I stop whatever I am doing, I go into the bathroom, close and lock the door and put a phony smile on my face. Then I close my eyes and do a focus on the breath meditation. I keep the phony smile on my face and focus on my breath until the anger is gone, compassion has taken it's place and the smile is no longer phony.
You could be forgiven for thinking this technique is silly, stupid or lacking in real world power. I didn't believe how effective it was until I tried it out of desperation. Most of the time it doesn't take more than 1 minute until the anger is replaced with compassion and an odd sense of peace.
This technique will not solve all your problems over night. I recommend it as a coping strategy when the emotions are out of control or you become mindful they are likely headed in that direction.
I am confident that if you try it just one time (just humor me) you will be very pleased with the result.
Sounds like, at least from what you've stated in this thread, you've been trying to find a solution and it just isn't there. I've all for couples trying to resolve their issues, but sometimes things just aren't resolvable.
I like the continium concept. This is familiar to an abuse technique called "taking you own tempurature" its liek a thermomater and when you get more and more angry there is a degree that is the point of no return.
I am just so bothered that she keeps texting sarcastically right now. Im telling you that i think i have more hope than i should
Anyway im really glad you are all here to field the mental chitta.
One key thing to realize here for you is, she's not going to change because of anything you say, do, think, feel, or anything else. She's only going to change if and because *she* wants to change. You have to decide for yourself what the likelihood of that is, whether you're willing to wait it out if you think she does want to change, and whether you're willing to go through the very painful (more than likely) process that it will take her to change from this toxic pattern to something more healthy. Even if she had an awakening today and decided to change, it won't be a quick or easy process for her, and very likely there would be backslides along the way. But just know up front that there is not one single thing you can do to convince her to change herself. You can be as loving and supportive as possible, but if it's not her doing and her decision, it's not going to happen. So is it worth it to you to keep yourself in such a situation?
Not knowing you nor anything more about the situation than what I've read here, my gut instinct would tell me probably not, but of course, only you know the answer.
I wish you the very best with whatever you decide, and please feel free to unload on us when you need to.
Peace
Mtns
Thanks for all the help you guys.
i understand how painful that can be. relationships can be like that, any argument you can have hurts 1000x worse because of the lips that speak it.
i was having a similar problem reacting to anger, and it then getting out of control once i added my fuel to the fire, and someone (okay, it was my mom :rolleyes:) told me that when someone launches an attack at you, instead of getting angry and responding in kind... you should just tell them how it makes you feel. it still allows you to express your feelings, but in a passive way. if she insults you, and it makes you angry and hurt, instead of insulting back, just tell her, "you know, that really hurts me when you say things like that."
if you have tried this, what she says in response can be very important. for example, if she says, "i don't care!" well... that can be a very telling sentence. but if it makes her take a step back and contemplate what she said to make you feel that way, then she respects your feelings. you need to have respect. if she responds with her own pain, then she is disillusioned into believing she is the only one that matters. this is sounding very toxic, unfortunately.
Having made the choice, at least for now, to remain in the relationship I will tell you something I am certain you already know.
You must work on yourself. You cannot change her period. Your perception of her behavior may be dead on accurate, but it's also clouded by a lot of powerful emotion which means it's not likely 100% accurate. The emotions are a cloud over our eyes and they simply do not permit us to see clearly. That's not just you, that is every person on the planet.
*IF* you choose to remain in the relationship then use her as your teacher. Use her as a barometer of your own mastery over your mental states. Use her as a test of whether or not you still have buttons that others can push or if you have successfully removed the wiring from those buttons.
Don't be afraid to walk away, at least temporarily. You haven't hit her which is very good, but it's just a matter of time before you do if the cycle of anger doesn't at least reduce in intensity and frequency. It's a continuum thing. You are angry so you want to hurt her and each time you do so it becomes easier to go just a little further the next time. You can see where this path leads. Walk away if you aren't able to retain control over your emotional state - PLEASE.
(oh, and do not come within 100 feet of alcohol or you are done for.)
Take the advice for what it's worth, treeder: opinions of random strangers on the internet. But you'd be surprised at how peaceful a romantic relationship can be, if that's what you go looking for. (I was in a similar relationship to yours; slightly worse, I think. It ended shortly after the conceptual attachment to aggression began to release.)
One of my criteria for future dates was that I was looking for someone peaceful who believed in something bigger than themselves. It really surprised me that relationships with people like that could be so easy, because I'd grown up in a family where interactions were dominated by hostility and disrespect. (As I suspect you were, given the BPD.)
My honest reaction to that statement is, you're not in a marriage. You're in an abusive, toxic relationship. A marriage is a partnership of equals who treat each other with respect and love. I don't see either of those things in what you're saying... Trying to "develop" in that environment, while it may not be impossible, will most certainly be a mighty challenge. You'd be pretty amazing if you accomplished it. Just my thought.
Mtns
I know where you're coming from with this. I was in a relationship with the same dynamic, and it was miserable. I never abused her in any way; but if I dared to disagree or have my own opinion, from her perspective I was being abusive. The worst part is that she was very hypocritical, controlling, and manipulative. (If anything it was her behavior that bordered on sexual abuse at times, as I was constantly being pressured into sex when I didn't feel like it.) It was a nightmare. I am VERY glad it's over now. Looking back I don't know why I put up with so much craziness for so long (three long years, most of which was awful).
You say that counseling has helped somewhat, and that things are a bit better than they were. What do you think needs to happen for the relationship to work? Do you think it can be repaired?
perhaps some anger is justified depending on what you did (did you cheat on her or something?). but she should also consider that there is no way to get over her hurt and anger if she refuses to let go of it. as much as you would like to save this relationship, all you can give is 50%. if you're with someone who won't give the other 50... then there is nothing you can do.
but as others have said, any advice you receive from us is based upon one side of the argument from a stranger that knows nothing of you in real life.
consider this though, the above is sounding exactly like what i have heard my mentally/physically abused friends tell me in justification of why their boyfriends/girlfriends hit them.
Ahem... cough, cough. Not everyone. Do you see me recommend divorce in my posts?
Which is why I recommended a coping technique that I lifted from a respected Buddhist teacher
It's also why I told you plainly that you will end up hitting her eventually if you don't find a successful coping strategy and that any use of alcohol will destroy you as you will do something really stupid and possibly illegal when under the influence of both alcohol and anger.
If she is claiming abuse then there is a very high probability she perceives abuse and isn't just saying it to push your buttons. You may not have hit her, but are you larger/stronger than her? Have you ever made a threat out of anger? Ever grabbed her arms and told her to settle down? All of these things can scare the crap out of someone when the person doing them is angry and the person on the receiving end views themselves as having no hope of prevailing should things get violent. You may not perceive such things as abusive, but she very well may and if you put yourself in her shoes (empathy) you will see how she could perceive it that way because she is scared out of her mind.
I know of no cure for anger other than removing oneself from the situation to prevent anything regrettable from happening and then metta type meditations which the technique I shared with you is sort of an 'emergency' form of. They lead to empathy.
A relationship where at least one person is good at empathy usually works out. A relationship where neither is any good at it will almost certainly fail in a spectacular way. The bad news is that most men are really bad at it. The good news is that empathy is a learnable skill.
If it sounds like I am dogging on you I am not. I am instead putting the focus where it needs to be which is on you, not her. Only you can change you. Don't worry about her. Any focus on what she does is a distraction from the real issue. You are the one in hell and you are the one who wants out of hell. Only you can get yourself out of hell and blaming her doesn't help, it hinders. She could be a female reincarnation of Adolph Hitler and nothing I said in this paragraph would be invalidated.
If you want sympathy I can offer it, but it won't help. If you want truth, you got it. You are headed for a disaster and you are the only one who can change you. I am not telling you that you are 'wrong', I am telling you that she doesn't have control over your anger and it sounds like neither do you. Your goal is to do whatever it takes to get control over your emotions before it is too late. Time is ticking and so are you.
I have even said these words, and i was told to go deeper into it with her to explore my fear of intimacy
Dude, this is what i hear each time i speak out against the criticism and hurt . She says " me too" and its not empatitic but sarcastic , i say " no what you said was really not ok" she goes " i can't ever tell you how angry i am, you don't listen and i am not ok, I cant do this, i don't want to be married like this, i am seriously sick to my stomach..." this is really scary and hurts me. But i just want to get pass the " AHHHH why do you say such mean things" phase.
Don't worry, it's common for people with BPD-like behaviors, and an understandable consequence of those behaviors.
It teaches you to wake up in the midst of aggression. One day my fiance was getting angry at me about something or other, and suddenly, this peace descended over me. The experience is hard to put into words; something like "You can be angry over there. I'm over here, and it's no problem." It's taken a long time to make that stable and reliable, and even now, sufficiently stressful circumstances can turn me into an asshole. The hell-realm meditations only release the conceptual attachment to aggression as an acceptable response to stressful situations. To release the aggressive reactions at the level of emotion, you have to go a bit deeper, and it took a lot longer for me. (Still not there, but I can pass for a normal human being, most of the time.)
You might try volunteering for a crisis- or suicide-counseling hotline. They will teach you techniques which are helpful in responding to this kind of thing.
The sad fact is that some people are just not meant to be together. If your best isn't good enough for her, what else can you do?
Did your counselor suggest that?! That is really outrageous. Your boundaries need to be respected. Nobody has the right to pressure you into sex if you say no or don't feel like it. That does not solve intimacy problems, it creates them.
That sounds terrible. It sounds like there is no common ground between you. Of course we are only getting a limited view of what your relationship is like, but what you've described sounds truly hellish. What made you two get married in the first place? Was it always like this? Why do you want to stay together?
IT-DOESN'T-MATTER!
You have two choices. Leave or stay. If she is as awful as you have portrayed her then you are borderline nuts to stay.
You are focusing on the wrong thing - her.
If you are going to stay then you have to be able to remain healthy in spite of whatever she does or does not do.
What you have been saying here, perhaps without realizing it, is a variation on this theme "I am unhappy. I am in a relationship with a person who makes me unhappy. Here are the awful things she does that make me unhappy. If she would just change to be more to my liking I would then be happy."
IT-IS-A-LIE
You have to accept that she will never change a single iota. You have to abandon any belief that her changing even to a small degree is possible. Then you have to ask yourself if you can be grounded and emotionally stable and dare I say it - HAPPY with her in your life.
In other words, can *you* change enough to be happy without her changing one iota? Can *you* change enough to always treat her with respect and compassion even though she has not and will not change one iota? That my friend is your dilemma. If you are holding on to hope that she will change then you are grasping at smoke. To the extent your happiness is dependent on her behavior you will not be happy - ever.
You are in hell. You made the hell, not her. You are believing she can let you out of hell, but the key is in your hand, not hers.
I don't think further lecturing is going to make the point any clearer.
Thank you guys.
Ordinary Conceptions are what stem the minds of Delusion...If Ordinary Conceptions are changed then that problematic person in front of you ceases.
This is a classic co-dependence relationship. Try the communication techniques described in Conscious Loving.
not me.
I have a question. I noticed that if I attempt to pronounce your username it sounds like 'treat her right'.
Any story behind that?
As for the issue. Temporarily i have somethings i can do to help balance myself out. I will practice
The smile and breath meditation
Keep in mind that i can't change her
try and see her as a buddha
take a look at the hell meditation retreat
work on the anger continuium
continue to respond with empathy ( which worked today btw. I just kept texting that i understand and i would feel the same way and etc. etc. Finally she said i apprechiate you listening and that i was avail)
These are the moments where i fall back asleep. It seems like all is good in metropolis untill the next villan comes out. Then you'll see me crying ,screaming, and confused and scared asking " what should i do, what should i do" to anyone that will listen.
Sometimes this is very exausting. Hopefully i will change and then be able to be firm in the midst of chaos.