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These are the moments where i fall back asleep. It seems like all is good in metropolis untill the next villan comes out. Then you'll see me crying ,screaming, and confused and scared asking " what should i do, what should i do" to anyone that will listen.
Sometimes this is very exausting. Hopefully i will change and then be able to be firm in the midst of chaos.
If there is still room for me to add to your nice list of things to try out/look into:
Since you recognize this as a cycle instead of 'falling asleep' as you put it, why not enjoy the good times and do the best you can to remain mindful of when it starts to change. Not what she does or does not do or say that starts another cycle, but what is going on inside your own mind that starts the cycle -for you.
Find the beginning point of where it starts to go downhill for you and you have the power to try different approaches to a resolution while you are still in possession of a clear head capable of empathy. Otherwise the tendency is for the cycle to go on until both persons are mentally, physically and spiritually exhausted and that is more of a temporary cease fire while we recover our energy than a resolution.
I think that you all are great help. I really feel uplifted and supported from this. I hope that through the principal of no-self others may adapt the conversation to thier situation and gain peace and relief. This has been special to me. Lots of new tools.
just read the bit in your post about wife claiming abuse? i made a very bad decision with my ex-wife that landed me in a domestic violence class as part of the probation. you would not believe the number of things that can be called abuse.
not just physical. there's verbal, like out down's and the like. there's financial, withholding money. mental, which if i remember right, could be coupled with verbal. emotional, which i don't remember now(6 + years ago).
i was really surprised at the things that are labeled abusive.
i could justify how i landed in jail for the night by saying all i did was bite her finger, but wrong is wrong. were fighting about something and her NA sponsor called the house and then i guess called the police, because not long after that, i bit her and the police were there. all she had to say was for me to go then i was gone.
some of the stories told by the other guys that weekend could have been stopped. the arguments started, and the guy would try to leave, but the girl would press the issue, and thing would go south from there. not saying it's all the girl's fault, but when someone tries to leave and defuse the situation, they keep up the fight and things 'happen'.
i guess i'm saying be careful if your arguments get loud.neighbours can be nosey(?)
I went to a class too, i know about the "economy of abuse" and conveying your feelings to your partner isn't abuse. It could be called dismissing because she has a feeling as well and it makes your feelings more important , but then again dismissing your own right for self expression in a marriage is worse in my book.
Ty for being open and honest. and the word of caution.I don't want to lose my freedom here and im fully aware that could be a possiblity if it escalates. I just want to have peace.
I'm glad you're finding insight and support here. Most of the posters really seem to be rooting for you! I thought your name was 'treat-her-right' in an ironic pointing at the pattern you're experiencing.
I was in a relationship that sounds much like yours, where many of my actions seemed to aggravate all of the buttons of my partner. No matter how hard I tried, she never seemed secure enough in herself or her mind to "come to the table" without "bringing her weapons." Its one thing to stub your toe and get pissed at your partner, but its quite another to constantly kick out at your house and then blame it for hurting your foot. Don't worry too much about how difficult the relationship is for you, because there are some people who would piss off Buddha (not really, of course, but I laugh when I think of that expression, which is one my teacher used to elucidate that life doesn't need to be an endurance trial.)
Sometimes, the lesson we have to learn is that no matter how much we work at something, it will never bear fruit. I don't know your relationship, of course, except through your accounting, but if you don't have children with her, it might be time to look honestly at what is keeping you in the relationship. If you and your partner had similar views, or were actually compatible, you would certainly notice things growing even in the middle of the chaos. If things are only eroding...
With warmth,
Matt
edit: Also, I highly recommend you read "Co-Dependent No More" by Melodie Bettie... I really think it will help you identify some key differences between what you are doing and what she is saying you are doing.
im taking everything in. I just am looking at all options. I want to know that i tried before considering divorce myself. I dont ever threaten her with divorce. She says it once a pay period !
I told her that i was getting help from my friends on the forum and she said " oh, okayyy. " like i was wrong for seeking support. Then i asked if she was upset at that and if she wanted me to have support and she huffed and puffed. What is it about me that makes her so irritated. She seems fine until talking to me, then i get attitude and pure frusteration and irritation from her.
What is it about me that makes her so irritated. She seems fine until talking to me, then i get attitude and pure frusteration and irritation from her.
Conditioning?
Now, lets engage in some empathy. She came home and found out that you spent the afternoon discussing her with strangers on the internet. She assumes the things you said about her were not kind. She feels hurt and possibly betrayed that you took your and her dirty laundry into a public forum. The hurt becomes anger. Frustration is on the low end of the anger continuum.
Am I saying you were wrong to come here looking for support? Not at all.
I am saying if you see it from her perspective, it's not unreasonable that she wouldn't react with warm fuzzies.
Have you ever read the story contained in Chapter 20 of the Lotus Sutra? Quite a valuable message it is.
In chapter 20 of the Lotus Sutra, we are introduced to a beautiful bodhisattva called Sadaparibhuta, “Never Disparaging.” The name of this bodhisattva can also be translated as “Never Despising.” This bodhisattva never underestimates living beings or doubts their capacity for buddhahood. His message is, “I know you possess buddhanature and you have the capacity to become a buddha,” and this is exactly the message of the Lotus Sutra—you are already a buddha in the ultimate dimension, and you can become a buddha in the historical dimension. Buddhanature, the nature of enlightenment and love, is already within you; all you need do is get in touch with it and manifest it. Never Disparaging Bodhisattva is there to remind us of the essence of our true nature.
This bodhisattva removes the feelings of worthlessness and low self-esteem in people. “How can I become a buddha? How can I attain enlightenment? There is nothing in me except suffering, and I don’t know how to get free of my own suffering, much less help others. I am worthless.” Many people have these kinds of feelings, and they suffer more because of them. Never Disparaging Bodhisattva works to encourage and empower people who feel this way, to remind them that they too have buddhanature, they too are a wonder of life, and they too can achieve what a buddha achieves. This is a great message of hope and confidence. This is the practice of a bodhisattva in the action dimension.
Sadaparibhuta was actually Shakyamuni in one of his former lives, appearing as a bodhisattva in the world to perfect his practice of the dharma. But this bodhisattva did not chant the sutras or practice in the usual way—he did not perform prostrations or go on pilgrimages or spend long hours in sitting meditation. Never Disparaging Bodhisattva had a specialty. Whenever he met someone he would address that person very respectfully, saying, “You are someone of great value. You are a future buddha. I see this potential in you.”
There are passages in the Lotus Sutra that suggest that Sadaparibhuta’s message was not always well received. Because they had not yet gotten in touch with the ultimate dimension, many people could not believe what the bodhisattva was telling them about their inherent buddhanature, and they thought he was mocking them. Often he was ridiculed, shouted at and driven away. But even when people did not believe him and drove him away with insults and beatings, Sadaparibhuta did not become angry or abandon them. Standing at a distance he continued to shout out the truth:
I do not hold you in contempt!
You are all treading the path,
And shall all become buddhas!
Sadaparibhuta is very sincere and has great equanimity. He never gives up on us. The meaning of his life, the fruition of his practice, is to bring this message of confidence and hope to everyone. This is the action of this great bodhisattva. We have to learn and practice this action if we want to follow the path of the bodhisattvas.
im taking everything in. I just am looking at all options. I want to know that i tried before considering divorce myself. I dont ever threaten her with divorce. She says it once a pay period !
i had an ex who would threaten to break up constantly, but not because she wanted to... because she was secretly afraid that i did and she was waiting for me to "take the bait", i guess.
after reading over all of your replies here, a book comes to mind that might help you. i'm in the middle of this really great book by thich nhat hanh simply titled "Anger". the funny thing is, i bought it for a friend and then realized, "i have a bigger problem with this than i thought!" i'm finding it very helpful, you might as well
i've heard that we have to teach others how we want and should be treated . I feel that if i keep letting her say hurtful stuff im going to feel so low about me that i won't have a me to bring to the relationship ( conventionally. I know the concepts i just need practical application of them to this particular dukkha) So in a way the only way i know to defend myself is to yell back. I grew up in a home for years my mother just screamed and screamed at me. and i took it. Now i feel like i can't be around a person who yells ( when she yells) but i also love her with a deeper mind that isn't taking record. Like i said very conflicted.
As Buddha said, "Hatred never ceases by hatred, by love alone is healed". Easier said than done, but true. Perpetuating the cycle of anger is not the answer - you know it and you already have a mental framework (Buddhism) that allows you to think about stopping it.
(Please take the following with an appropriately-sized grain of salt)
If there ever was a low-hanging fruit for how to improve your life, this is it. Learning to deal with anger is a win-win situation for you: it will clear your mind a bit, allowing you to better see what is really going on between you and your wife - and it will either be a big step towards healing your relationship, or it will be a step towards realization that your marriage has no real future - but in either case, it will be a step forward for you personally...
Another thought: this is your chance to practice generosity AND equanimity AND compassion at the same time! All of that by simply being kind in response to your wife's disparaging comments. I know, it's much harder than it sounds, but once you get there, I bet it will feel like nothing you've felt before.
have you ever said said to her that you love her, that she is your dream come true, and that you want things to be nice and peacefull between the two of you??
Just like that. Nothing more nothing less.
Maybe you could meditate a bit more on you're upbringing, the effects they had on you, and thereby what you bring into the relationship. And more important, how to fix YOU, cause the only thing you can truely fix is yourself. Another person only goes so far.
I'm just a young noob, but I really respect you're attitude of not giving up on the relationship and trying to make it work. However, somethings things just don't work and they never will. Buddhism is not an excuse/reason/non-reason to take shitty situations for granted.
You guys met during recovery right? Isn't it adviced over there you should wait at least one year before slowly starting dating etc. again? I'm in recovery myself.
Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions. I am pleased to say that this entire experience has been a catylyst to us looking into boundries. We seen a video on netflix last night about boundries , what constitutes abusive communication , we made agreements to let this video really establish the truth of our dirty fights. We are now going to use the tools in the video for deeper connection. He said lots of helpful things. Also i used a number of techniques from the people on this forum and im happy to say that it was totally effective. I used nothing but I statements in talking about our fight. I responded empathically to her feelings and it made a big difference. I don't know how that all happened but using the tools and being forced to stop looking at her , enabled me to practice skillful listening and responding. In return i was given a de escalated situation and some peace. We are going to do new things in our marriage and im going to start by setting my own boundries. In talking with you all and my sponsor , i am now going to be aware of the problems of communicating out of anger and feeling of unfairness. I don't know what happened but my outlook seems to have changed
I must say though when i said i was trying to get help from the sangha, she went on the Forum! I was so upset. But i think with that being said that we should close this please. Thank you all for contributing. And i will keep refering back to this post to refresh if i get forgetfull and lose awareness of the tools that can be practiced.
I often think to myself "I want what I want with the person I want it". How this relates to you is you want what you are looking for with your wife and no one else.
Sometimes i wonder how much we are truly able to see because of our own thoughts on things. I think at its core buddhism is trying to remove the preconceived ideas we have about our life, so that we can get out of the way and let life be what it is.. A common phrase i keep hearing is "It is what it is" no more or less how much we see of it is up to us. sometimes i think as with any major philosophy a bit of nit picking can go on over the details on how something should be done.
I truly believe if you really want a loving relationship with your wife you will find a way. I truly believe love is an action word, not something that is said aimlessly as you bump in to each other while you're wanderings through life. What would you not give to someone that you love. (If she asks you to run to the store, or get a glass of water, clean the car, etc.) If you loved her would you not do it?
I have noticed in my relationships its easy to forget you love someone by preconceiving what you want to do is more important.
I think its hard to remember our loved ones in the positive light when we are faced with a lot of negativism. I do agree with most everyone here when they say that if you can figure out who you are in relation to her, and give out a positive aura this is your hitch to begin healing. It is also true that no one here or anywhere else can save you, but you.
I once read that if a unwavering peaceful man walks in to a room of chaos the emotions and feelings of the room gravitates towards peace. I feel if you can center yourself on peace, empathy, compassion, respect, then there is a good chance that she will start to gravitate towards it.
In response to your feelings about yourself and your wifes ability to validate your short comings. I don't doubt that in some ways she is more aware of who you are than you are. Our significant others live with us day in and out and see who we are, but I think when we are looking out we have a tendency to gravitate towards the positive things we want to think about ourselves, and don't notice who we are. Accepting every facet of our selves positive or negative is good for growth, Then we know how to improve.
Being able to stand in the face of someone that we think is verbally or physically attacks us is one of the more difficult things I personally have had to do. I find that it is more prevalent in my relationships that are close to me than those who are outside my close family circle. I think the point that was brought up about explaining if necessary how you feel is a good counter to a verbal attack.
Looking at it from what I understand of buddhism our viewpoints on our shortcomings as well as our traits that we excel at are just our attachments to an idea of who we think we are. Ajahn Chah said that one of the main purposes of life is to let go.
What are we if we aren't our ideas of who we are?
Hopefully something I mentioned help, and if not thats ok too.
Lately i've been really concious of my feeling aggregate and the "i" that trys to make that aggregate the center of my existence, some kind of intrinsic feeling inside that aggregate. It was helpful to hear that there are positive , negative , and neutral feelings in that aggregate. that the only reason its positive is because its a temporary relief from the negative, and the only reason its negative is because of an entitlement to a more postive. This is very helpful in marriage. Im learning that i can't just say whatever i want to my wife as well.
I used to think that my words didn't matter and that if i felt negative that i can just say what i want and she will nurture me, however im learning that , this isn't true. My negative reactions, even if partially caused by her are my responsibility. I also have learned that if i conciously say things that make her feel good the hits of negativity have a buffer so to speak that absorb the seemingly negative moment. I like that too.
Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions. I am pleased to say that this entire experience has been a catylyst to us looking into boundries. We seen a video on youtube last night about boundries , what constitutes abusive communication , we made agreements to let this video really establish the truth of our dirty fights. We are now going to use the tools in the video for deeper connection
I also have learned that if i conciously say things that make her feel good the hits of negativity have a buffer so to speak that absorb the seemingly negative moment. I like that too.
Often, our negative words make us afraid that our partner will reject us. For instance, saying something to the effect "I hear that you're angry, and even with that anger, I love you and see you as beautiful." It can validate the pain, and dissolve the fear that "us+pain" will be rejected.
Sometimes we just need to know that we're ok in the eyes of our loved ones.
I have been using the advice of each percevied negative thing said by her i respond in empathically. At first it sounds wierd like she can see its fake. But the fact is , is that she loves it. She thanks me now for saying it and it even places her in aplace to hear where im comming from . this is kinda cool
Heh, I had the exact same experience when I learned about reflective listening at the suicide hotline.
Me: I learned this reflective listening thing. It sounds so fake!
Her: Let's try it!
Me: So you're curious about reflective listening, and you'd like to try a simulation of it.
Her: This is great!
I even went as far as preprogramed texts in my phone to force me to break patterns of blame and invalidation to understanding and empathy. I have 15 understanding and empathic responses. Each time i feel like blaming, i use one of these pretyped texts and poof de escalated marriage
I even went as far as preprogramed texts in my phone to force me to break patterns of blame and invalidation to understanding and empathy. I have 15 understanding and empathic responses. Each time i feel like blaming, i use one of these pretyped texts and poof de escalated marriage
i think this is a great idea! in the book i mentioned earlier, "Anger" by thich nhat hanh, he talks about empathetic listening. when someone comes at you with something they are upset about, they might accuse you or tell you something you did that made them upset, it is so hard to resist the urge to respond, "but i did it because ______!" or, "but you did _____!" but instead, you have to see that it is their turn for the floor and just listen. you need to listen to their suffering. you might be mad because you think they are suffering from wrong view, but it is not the correct time to address it. he says you should never discuss something when you are angry, instead, make a date for it in the future and then practice meditation until then. frequently you will see that you are not as blameless as you think you are and by the time your date has arrived, you instead see the matter clearly and know that you are both suffering. when one suffers, both suffer.
i'm finding his advice particularly helpful for my own bad habits.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
it's okay, i forgive you. i was irritated by your comment before so i didn't respond because, plainly put, i couldn't think of anything nice to say. but i am happy to see that you see the error in your thinking. remember that comments like that are very objectifying.
the reality of the situation is that i have known i was a lesbian for over 10 years now, i have had relations with many women, and my current girlfriend i have been with for nearly 3 years now. we share a lovely boring existence together filled with normal things like dinner and laundry, just like any other couple. it's not ALL pillow fights, you know
i'm sure you can see why it is irritating when someone takes something like the fact that we are both women and turns it into a reason for their titillation.
I even went as far as preprogramed texts in my phone to force me to break patterns of blame and invalidation to understanding and empathy. I have 15 understanding and empathic responses. Each time i feel like blaming, i use one of these pretyped texts and poof de escalated marriage
I don't know if this is relevant to you, but someone recommended marriagebuilders.com for some advice on my relationship (even though I am not married). I thought the site was pretty interesting, and there were some points that actually helped me. Maybe there's something there that can help you too.
I've not read all of this thread, so apologies if i'm out of context but something my teacher taught me to ask myself to help with my relationships (not just romantic) might help you change your perspective on the problems you face:
If the world is coming from my mind (ie from me and not at me) then it must be a reflection of me. If it is a reflection of me then what is it/when is it I do these things and how could changing my behaviour change my reflection? In short: what is this teaching me?
there's also a very good book you might find helpful called 'Anger' by Thich nhat han which might help not only cool the fires but understand what sparked them in the first place.
Critical and Judgemental spousal attacks. LOL. I hate to sound bitter but i am. It seems that she has a torrent of hurtful things to say to me. We have had serious fights and sorry to say some abuse. It is just awful sometimes because of the yelling. We have gone to marriage counseling for 2 years. and we are just a little better. My biggest difficulty is backing down from aggressive attacks.
She attacks me with normal aggression and irritation and because of my upbringing i get real defensive and aggress back. I try to breath its just the attacks are so sudden and overwhelming. It seems that she is unstable but then once i react i am the unstable one, This all is making my head hurt and im overwhelmed. I just want to have peace between us. She has threatened divorce and i don't know why she wont follow through with it.
My friggin head aches from all this complicated drama. I try to just let it pass and practice impermanence in relation to all the burning fire. but sometimes it seems that the negative statements she makes are never going to stop. I know this is not typical of me because i usually have a lot of helpful insight into buddhist practice. But when it comes to my marriage im just baffeled and stuck .
Whew. I don't even know what that all is about , but maybe someone can have compassion and look into it with me.
Wow, treederight ... I think I can safely say that so very many people can totally understand what you are living through. It is so difficult, and I am sorry that you are going through it. I've been there, my sister still deals with her drama-marriage (it's the husband in this one).
The GOOD news is that you are practicing Buddhism. And yes, relationships are the hardest arena of our lives to reframe into a Buddhist paradigm. So here's some tips and attitudes that my sister and I have found most useful to us:
The whole cause of our suffering is our attachment to getting what we want, and our aversion to not getting what we want. We get "hooked" by both our likes and dislikes, as sure as any fish, and we mistakenly think the solution is to "fix" the situation. In this case, the hook is defending ourselves against attack. This is surely a basic survival mechanism, but the whole practice of Buddhism is designed to break down these mechanisms. The very stress of this drama actually provides an opportunity to show you, like nothing else can, just how very real the effect of being hooked is, and how we ourselves cause our own suffering through our attachments and aversions.
From your meditation, you are learning to observe, to not get hooked by your thoughts. In meditation, you strive to be fully open, fully present. Try to reclaim that awareness during the drama-moments of your marriage. Even if you do not succeed, you are setting imprints for the effort and for eventual success. And while you may flare up in response to a sudden attack, the more you work at it, the more often you will at some point in the argument catch yourself and say, "Oh yeah ... THIS is what causes suffering". And, to the extent that you succeed, to that extent, you will learn compassion for yourself, and that compassion will extend to your wife, too. This reduces the "size" of the hook.
Additionally, the practice of loving-kindness and the practice of tonglen can help shift the focus off of "getting what you don't want" onto awareness that all of us are stuck in the same boat ... "just like me, all beings want happiness and don't want unhappiness". In her own strange dysfunctional way, your wife is just trying to be happy. Just as you try to work to open up clearly to your own inner responses and try to develop compassion for yourself, work also on seeing her own pain and try to develop compassion for her. Again, it is not so much the degree of success as the setting of imprints within yourself that is the greatest benefit. The imprints will eventually make themselves felt, increasingly strongly.
Lastly, I suggest you Google "Eight Verses For Training the Mind" (I'd provide a link, but I just lost my toolbar and haven't found where it went to yet ) ... this set of verses shows you the attitude that Buddhists work towards. Oh, it is so VERY opposite to any our cultural attitudes. My heart goes out to you ... I know how difficult this situation is and I wish you a speedy release, but while you're stuck there I also wish some good growth for you. I hope that, with time, you will find one of my comments helpful.
Comments
If there is still room for me to add to your nice list of things to try out/look into:
Since you recognize this as a cycle instead of 'falling asleep' as you put it, why not enjoy the good times and do the best you can to remain mindful of when it starts to change. Not what she does or does not do or say that starts another cycle, but what is going on inside your own mind that starts the cycle -for you.
Find the beginning point of where it starts to go downhill for you and you have the power to try different approaches to a resolution while you are still in possession of a clear head capable of empathy. Otherwise the tendency is for the cycle to go on until both persons are mentally, physically and spiritually exhausted and that is more of a temporary cease fire while we recover our energy than a resolution.
not just physical. there's verbal, like out down's and the like. there's financial, withholding money. mental, which if i remember right, could be coupled with verbal. emotional, which i don't remember now(6 + years ago).
i was really surprised at the things that are labeled abusive.
i could justify how i landed in jail for the night by saying all i did was bite her finger, but wrong is wrong. were fighting about something and her NA sponsor called the house and then i guess called the police, because not long after that, i bit her and the police were there. all she had to say was for me to go then i was gone.
some of the stories told by the other guys that weekend could have been stopped. the arguments started, and the guy would try to leave, but the girl would press the issue, and thing would go south from there. not saying it's all the girl's fault, but when someone tries to leave and defuse the situation, they keep up the fight and things 'happen'.
i guess i'm saying be careful if your arguments get loud.neighbours can be nosey(?)
Ty for being open and honest. and the word of caution.I don't want to lose my freedom here and im fully aware that could be a possiblity if it escalates. I just want to have peace.
I'm glad you're finding insight and support here. Most of the posters really seem to be rooting for you!
I was in a relationship that sounds much like yours, where many of my actions seemed to aggravate all of the buttons of my partner. No matter how hard I tried, she never seemed secure enough in herself or her mind to "come to the table" without "bringing her weapons." Its one thing to stub your toe and get pissed at your partner, but its quite another to constantly kick out at your house and then blame it for hurting your foot. Don't worry too much about how difficult the relationship is for you, because there are some people who would piss off Buddha (not really, of course, but I laugh when I think of that expression, which is one my teacher used to elucidate that life doesn't need to be an endurance trial.)
Sometimes, the lesson we have to learn is that no matter how much we work at something, it will never bear fruit. I don't know your relationship, of course, except through your accounting, but if you don't have children with her, it might be time to look honestly at what is keeping you in the relationship. If you and your partner had similar views, or were actually compatible, you would certainly notice things growing even in the middle of the chaos. If things are only eroding...
With warmth,
Matt
edit: Also, I highly recommend you read "Co-Dependent No More" by Melodie Bettie... I really think it will help you identify some key differences between what you are doing and what she is saying you are doing.
Conditioning?
Now, lets engage in some empathy. She came home and found out that you spent the afternoon discussing her with strangers on the internet. She assumes the things you said about her were not kind. She feels hurt and possibly betrayed that you took your and her dirty laundry into a public forum. The hurt becomes anger. Frustration is on the low end of the anger continuum.
Am I saying you were wrong to come here looking for support? Not at all.
I am saying if you see it from her perspective, it's not unreasonable that she wouldn't react with warm fuzzies.
adapted from Opening the Heart of the Cosmos: Insights on the Lotus Sutra, by Thich Nhat Hanh
i had an ex who would threaten to break up constantly, but not because she wanted to... because she was secretly afraid that i did and she was waiting for me to "take the bait", i guess.
after reading over all of your replies here, a book comes to mind that might help you. i'm in the middle of this really great book by thich nhat hanh simply titled "Anger". the funny thing is, i bought it for a friend and then realized, "i have a bigger problem with this than i thought!" i'm finding it very helpful, you might as well
As Buddha said, "Hatred never ceases by hatred, by love alone is healed". Easier said than done, but true. Perpetuating the cycle of anger is not the answer - you know it and you already have a mental framework (Buddhism) that allows you to think about stopping it.
(Please take the following with an appropriately-sized grain of salt)
If there ever was a low-hanging fruit for how to improve your life, this is it. Learning to deal with anger is a win-win situation for you: it will clear your mind a bit, allowing you to better see what is really going on between you and your wife - and it will either be a big step towards healing your relationship, or it will be a step towards realization that your marriage has no real future - but in either case, it will be a step forward for you personally...
Another thought: this is your chance to practice generosity AND equanimity AND compassion at the same time! All of that by simply being kind in response to your wife's disparaging comments. I know, it's much harder than it sounds, but once you get there, I bet it will feel like nothing you've felt before.
Just like that. Nothing more nothing less.
Maybe you could meditate a bit more on you're upbringing, the effects they had on you, and thereby what you bring into the relationship. And more important, how to fix YOU, cause the only thing you can truely fix is yourself. Another person only goes so far.
I'm just a young noob, but I really respect you're attitude of not giving up on the relationship and trying to make it work. However, somethings things just don't work and they never will. Buddhism is not an excuse/reason/non-reason to take shitty situations for granted.
You guys met during recovery right? Isn't it adviced over there you should wait at least one year before slowly starting dating etc. again? I'm in recovery myself.
Sorry I couldn't resist
Ah, the "Impressive Clergyman"... Just say "I do"!
One of my favorite films of all time.
Bye bye boys! Have fun storming the castle!
I don't think it requires elaboration.
Sometimes i wonder how much we are truly able to see because of our own thoughts on things. I think at its core buddhism is trying to remove the preconceived ideas we have about our life, so that we can get out of the way and let life be what it is.. A common phrase i keep hearing is "It is what it is" no more or less how much we see of it is up to us. sometimes i think as with any major philosophy a bit of nit picking can go on over the details on how something should be done.
I truly believe if you really want a loving relationship with your wife you will find a way. I truly believe love is an action word, not something that is said aimlessly as you bump in to each other while you're wanderings through life. What would you not give to someone that you love. (If she asks you to run to the store, or get a glass of water, clean the car, etc.) If you loved her would you not do it?
I have noticed in my relationships its easy to forget you love someone by preconceiving what you want to do is more important.
I think its hard to remember our loved ones in the positive light when we are faced with a lot of negativism. I do agree with most everyone here when they say that if you can figure out who you are in relation to her, and give out a positive aura this is your hitch to begin healing. It is also true that no one here or anywhere else can save you, but you.
I once read that if a unwavering peaceful man walks in to a room of chaos the emotions and feelings of the room gravitates towards peace. I feel if you can center yourself on peace, empathy, compassion, respect, then there is a good chance that she will start to gravitate towards it.
In response to your feelings about yourself and your wifes ability to validate your short comings. I don't doubt that in some ways she is more aware of who you are than you are. Our significant others live with us day in and out and see who we are, but I think when we are looking out we have a tendency to gravitate towards the positive things we want to think about ourselves, and don't notice who we are. Accepting every facet of our selves positive or negative is good for growth, Then we know how to improve.
Being able to stand in the face of someone that we think is verbally or physically attacks us is one of the more difficult things I personally have had to do. I find that it is more prevalent in my relationships that are close to me than those who are outside my close family circle. I think the point that was brought up about explaining if necessary how you feel is a good counter to a verbal attack.
Looking at it from what I understand of buddhism our viewpoints on our shortcomings as well as our traits that we excel at are just our attachments to an idea of who we think we are. Ajahn Chah said that one of the main purposes of life is to let go.
What are we if we aren't our ideas of who we are?
Hopefully something I mentioned help, and if not thats ok too.
Take Care, and I wish you the best of luck.
Thawee
any chance you can give a link to this video?
thank you
Often, our negative words make us afraid that our partner will reject us. For instance, saying something to the effect "I hear that you're angry, and even with that anger, I love you and see you as beautiful." It can validate the pain, and dissolve the fear that "us+pain" will be rejected.
Sometimes we just need to know that we're ok in the eyes of our loved ones.
With warmth,
Matt
Me: I learned this reflective listening thing. It sounds so fake!
Her: Let's try it!
Me: So you're curious about reflective listening, and you'd like to try a simulation of it.
Her: This is great!
That's actually quite a brilliant idea.
i think this is a great idea! in the book i mentioned earlier, "Anger" by thich nhat hanh, he talks about empathetic listening. when someone comes at you with something they are upset about, they might accuse you or tell you something you did that made them upset, it is so hard to resist the urge to respond, "but i did it because ______!" or, "but you did _____!" but instead, you have to see that it is their turn for the floor and just listen. you need to listen to their suffering. you might be mad because you think they are suffering from wrong view, but it is not the correct time to address it. he says you should never discuss something when you are angry, instead, make a date for it in the future and then practice meditation until then. frequently you will see that you are not as blameless as you think you are and by the time your date has arrived, you instead see the matter clearly and know that you are both suffering. when one suffers, both suffer.
i'm finding his advice particularly helpful for my own bad habits.
it's okay, i forgive you. i was irritated by your comment before so i didn't respond because, plainly put, i couldn't think of anything nice to say. but i am happy to see that you see the error in your thinking. remember that comments like that are very objectifying.
the reality of the situation is that i have known i was a lesbian for over 10 years now, i have had relations with many women, and my current girlfriend i have been with for nearly 3 years now. we share a lovely boring existence together filled with normal things like dinner and laundry, just like any other couple. it's not ALL pillow fights, you know
i'm sure you can see why it is irritating when someone takes something like the fact that we are both women and turns it into a reason for their titillation.
Cool!
If so, PLEASE make a vow never to fight inside the house again. If you have hot words to say to each other, take it outside.
We had friends with large noses whisper appropriate responses from the bushes.
If the world is coming from my mind (ie from me and not at me) then it must be a reflection of me. If it is a reflection of me then what is it/when is it I do these things and how could changing my behaviour change my reflection? In short: what is this teaching me?
Wow, treederight ... I think I can safely say that so very many people can totally understand what you are living through. It is so difficult, and I am sorry that you are going through it. I've been there, my sister still deals with her drama-marriage (it's the husband in this one).
The GOOD news is that you are practicing Buddhism. And yes, relationships are the hardest arena of our lives to reframe into a Buddhist paradigm. So here's some tips and attitudes that my sister and I have found most useful to us:
The whole cause of our suffering is our attachment to getting what we want, and our aversion to not getting what we want. We get "hooked" by both our likes and dislikes, as sure as any fish, and we mistakenly think the solution is to "fix" the situation. In this case, the hook is defending ourselves against attack. This is surely a basic survival mechanism, but the whole practice of Buddhism is designed to break down these mechanisms. The very stress of this drama actually provides an opportunity to show you, like nothing else can, just how very real the effect of being hooked is, and how we ourselves cause our own suffering through our attachments and aversions.
From your meditation, you are learning to observe, to not get hooked by your thoughts. In meditation, you strive to be fully open, fully present. Try to reclaim that awareness during the drama-moments of your marriage. Even if you do not succeed, you are setting imprints for the effort and for eventual success. And while you may flare up in response to a sudden attack, the more you work at it, the more often you will at some point in the argument catch yourself and say, "Oh yeah ... THIS is what causes suffering". And, to the extent that you succeed, to that extent, you will learn compassion for yourself, and that compassion will extend to your wife, too. This reduces the "size" of the hook.
Additionally, the practice of loving-kindness and the practice of tonglen can help shift the focus off of "getting what you don't want" onto awareness that all of us are stuck in the same boat ... "just like me, all beings want happiness and don't want unhappiness". In her own strange dysfunctional way, your wife is just trying to be happy. Just as you try to work to open up clearly to your own inner responses and try to develop compassion for yourself, work also on seeing her own pain and try to develop compassion for her. Again, it is not so much the degree of success as the setting of imprints within yourself that is the greatest benefit. The imprints will eventually make themselves felt, increasingly strongly.
Lastly, I suggest you Google "Eight Verses For Training the Mind" (I'd provide a link, but I just lost my toolbar and haven't found where it went to yet