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Enlightened People

JoshuaJoshua Veteran
edited December 2010 in Buddhism Basics
Does anybody know or know of anybody who is enlightened?
How common is it for people to be enlightened in the world, at a sangha?

Two people I've developed a soft spot for are Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Matthieu Ricard. Anybody know about their levels are spiritual attainment?

Comments

  • edited October 2010
    valois wrote: »
    Does anybody know or know of anybody who is enlightened?
    How common is it for people to be enlightened in the world, at a sangha?

    Two people I've developed a soft spot for are Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Matthieu Ricard. Anybody know about their levels are spiritual attainment?
    The majority of practitioners with attainments of any kind are pretty hush hush about them.
    I certainly think there are many highly realized practitioners and teachers around the world. No way of really confirming or "proving" it though.
    A few people who I think are/where realized are:
    HH Dalai Lama
    Dudjom Rinpoche
    Kunzang Dechen Lingpa
    Shodo Harada
    Ajahn Chah

    I think there are loads of others who could also be mentioned.
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    edited October 2010
    valois wrote: »
    Does anybody know or know of anybody who is enlightened?
    How common is it for people to be enlightened in the world, at a sangha?

    Two people I've developed a soft spot for are Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Matthieu Ricard. Anybody know about their levels are spiritual attainment?

    All I can tell is when someone is further down the path than I. However, I think it is an error to be too focused on the goal ... reaching enlightenment is a process that is only attained by paying attention to the process.
  • JoshuaJoshua Veteran
    edited October 2010
    The majority of practitioners with attainments of any kind are pretty hush hush about them.
    I certainly think there are many highly realized practitioners and teachers around the world. No way of really confirming or "proving" it though.
    A few people who I think are/where realized are:
    HH Dalai Lama
    Dudjom Rinpoche
    Kunzang Dechen Lingpa
    Shodo Harada
    Ajahn Chah
    Ai, looks like I've got some reading to do.
    Do you know if historically anyone has ever publically stated their having become enlightened?
    FoibleFull wrote: »
    All I can tell is when someone is further down the path than I. However, I think it is an error to be too focused on the goal ... reaching enlightenment is a process that is only attained by paying attention to the process.
    I feel like every buddhist is further down the path than I :-/
  • edited October 2010
    valois wrote: »
    Ai, looks like I've got some reading to do.
    Do you know if historically anyone has ever publically stated their having become enlightened?
    The Buddha did, but he was an exceptional case. :)
  • edited October 2010
    With regards to Matthieu Ricard, I can't speak to his personal attainment but I regard his root guru Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche as a fully enlightened master if there ever was one, also Dudjom Rinpoche. There are two excellent accounts of their lives, respectively:

    Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Brilliant Moon: An Autobiography of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Shambhala 2008
    Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal, Light of Fearless Indestructible Wisdom: The Life and Legacy of Kyabje Jigdral Yeshe Dorje, His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche

    Also Chatral Rinpoche is worth investigating, though there is much less written about him than either of these masters. Most masters will keep their attainment concealed from all but their close students.
  • JoshuaJoshua Veteran
    edited October 2010
    karmadorje wrote: »
    Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Brilliant Moon: An Autobiography of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Shambhala 2008
    Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal, Light of Fearless Indestructible Wisdom: The Life and Legacy of Kyabje Jigdral Yeshe Dorje, His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche

    I'll definitely check that out, I don't really know anything about him, but his legacy was alluded to a bunch when I read The Tibetan Book of the Living and Dying, which also brings to mind Jamyang Chökyi Lodrö, what do you think about him?

    I will read about Chatral Rinpoche as well as Shenpen Nangwa's suggestions.
  • edited October 2010
    One who says he is enlightened certainly is not enlightened, as an enlightened person would understand that there is no "him" to be enlightened, nor any enlightenment to be had.
  • JoshuaJoshua Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Is it true that reaching enlightenment is like peeling the layers of an onion back until you reach the core and then throwing that very core away while some people may get so caught up in spiritual attainment that they inadvertently add more layers to their already full sized onion?

    For a person to state they're enlightened they'd be suggesting some remaining core and consequently be a farse. But what if someone is point-blank asked about their enlightenment? I understand the Dalai Lama has been asked and denied his enlightenment. Is this a demonstration of humility? Perhaps a preemptive effort to circumvent incredulity?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I once asked a Zen master if he has attained enlightenment. He said "Yes! Ask me how!" So I said "Ok how?" He then proceeded to eat an apple.
  • edited October 2010
    valois wrote: »
    Is it true that reaching enlightenment is like peeling the layers of an onion back until you reach the core and then throwing that very core away while some people may get so caught up in spiritual attainment that they inadvertently add more layers to their already full sized onion?

    For a person to state they're enlightened they'd be suggesting some remaining core and consequently be a farse. But what if someone is point-blank asked about their enlightenment? I understand the Dalai Lama has been asked and denied his enlightenment. Is this a demonstration of humility? Perhaps a preemptive effort to circumvent incredulity?

    For the first paragraph. Using your analogy, here's how I would look at it. Well, this is speaking of the goal of bodhisattva. You peel back the layers to get to the core, and then when you get to the goal you are the core, the layers, and the emptiness. It's an understanding that you can't pin anything down as being anything, including "yourself."

    As for the second paragraph. It all depends on how you use the term enlightenment. To me, there are different levels of enlightenment. How an enlightened person or the dalai lama answers is based on two things. Ultimate enlightenment is buddhahood. If the dalai lama says he is not enlightened, it means that all of his negative karma has not been exhausted yet, and he is not a buddha. I'm sure he's enlightened using certain definitions of enlightenment, but then again it's not all that rare.(well, relatively speaking. obviously it's pretty rare.)
  • JoshuaJoshua Veteran
    edited October 2010
    seeker242 wrote: »
    I once asked a Zen master if he has attained enlightenment. He said "Yes! Ask me how!" So I said "Ok how?" He then proceeded to eat an apple.
    lol. Wtf is with Zen buddhist masters. You should have slapped him in the face!

    TheJourney wrote: »
    For the first paragraph. Using your analogy, here's how I would look at it. Well, this is speaking of the goal of bodhisattva. You peel back the layers to get to the core, and then when you get to the goal you are the core, the layers, and the emptiness. It's an understanding that you can't pin anything down as being anything, including "yourself."

    As for the second paragraph. It all depends on how you use the term enlightenment. To me, there are different levels of enlightenment. How an enlightened person or the dalai lama answers is based on two things. Ultimate enlightenment is buddhahood. If the dalai lama says he is not enlightened, it means that all of his negative karma has not been exhausted yet, and he is not a buddha. I'm sure he's enlightened using certain definitions of enlightenment, but then again it's not all that rare.(well, relatively speaking. obviously it's pretty rare.)
    I don't understand the second paragraph. Is this distinguishment between auddhahood and an arahant a Mahayana one? I'm not well versed in Mahayana philosophies. :o
  • edited October 2010
    valois wrote: »
    I don't understand the second paragraph. Is this distinguishment between auddhahood and an arahant a Mahayana one? I'm not well versed in Mahayana philosophies. :o

    You can't be a buddha in theravada. Arahant is the ultimate attainment. In mahayana arahant is...the lowest of the highest attainments.
  • JoshuaJoshua Veteran
    edited October 2010
    So how can the Dalai Lama be a living arahant yet still have karmic debt?
  • edited October 2010
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html

    John T. Bullitt stated, excellently:
    I wouldn't be a Buddhist if I didn't think enlightenment were possible. The Buddha himself observed that as long there are people practicing correctly in line with the noble eightfold path, there will continue to be enlightened beings in the world (DN 16). Even better evidence of the reality of enlightenment lies in the "gradual" nature of the Buddha's teachings. In the suttas, the Buddha speaks again and again of the many rewards awaiting those who follow the Path, long before they reach nibbana: the happiness that comes from developing generosity; the happiness that comes from living according to principles of virtue; the happiness that comes from developing loving-kindness (metta); the happiness that comes from practicing meditation and discovering the exquisite bliss of a quiet mind; the happiness that comes from abandoning painful states of mind; and so on. These can be tasted for yourself, to varying degrees, through Dhamma practice. Once you've personally verified a few of the Buddha's teachings, it becomes ever-easier to accept the possibility that the rest of his teachings are plausible — including his extraordinary claim that enlightenment is accessible to us.

    It's probably best not to spend too much time speculating on someone else's degree of enlightenment, simply because our own delusion and defilements are bound to cloud our vision and distort our assessment of others' attainments or lack thereof. Our time is far better spent looking inwards and asking of ourselves: "Am I enlightened? Have I made an end of suffering and stress?" If the answer is negative, then we have more work to do.


    Some lines of questioning regarding someone else's purity are, however, well worth pursuing — especially when deciding whether or not to accept that person as your teacher: "Does this person seem to be truly happy? Does he live by the precepts? Is her interpretation of Dhamma a valid one? Can I learn something of real value from him?" It can take a long and close association with someone before you can begin to answer these questions with any confidence (AN 4.192). But if you do find someone possessing this rare constellation of good qualities, stay with that person: he or she probably has something of lasting value to teach you.


    Finally, one rule of thumb that I've found helpful: someone who goes around claiming to be enlightened (or dropping hints to that effect) probably isn't — at least not in the sense the Buddha had in mind.
  • edited October 2010
    Regarding HHDL- on one level, he is regarded as having taken incarnation for a specific purpose in order to do a specific task. On another level, he refers to himself as a simple monk.

    Who knows really? People who describe themselves as enlightened, except for the Buddha, are in my mind suspect and should be treated only with benign curiosity.
  • edited October 2010
    TheJourney wrote: »
    One who says he is enlightened certainly is not enlightened, as an enlightened person would understand that there is no "him" to be enlightened, nor any enlightenment to be had.
    Then, Siddartha Gautama was not enlightened.
  • edited October 2010
    Alfonso wrote: »
    Then, Siddartha Gautama was not enlightened.

    Let me quote chapter 9 of the diamond sutra for you.
    Buddha then asked, "What do you think, Subhuti, does one who has entered the stream which flows to Enlightenment, say 'I have entered the stream'?"
    "No, Buddha", Subhuti replied. "A true disciple entering the stream would not think of themselves as a separate person that could be entering anything. Only that disciple who does not differentiate themselves from others, who has no regard for name, shape, sound, odor, taste, touch or for any quality can truly be called a disciple who has entered the stream."
    Buddha continued, "Does a disciple who is subject to only one more rebirth say to himself, 'I am entitled to the honors and rewards of a Once-to-be-reborn.'?"
    "No, Lord. 'Once-to-be-reborn' is only a name. There is no passing away, or coming into, existence. Only one who realizes this can really be called a disciple."
    "Subhuti, does a venerable One who will never more be reborn as a mortal say to himself, 'I am entitled to the honor and rewards of a Non-returner.'?"
    "No, Perfectly Enlightened One. A 'Non-returner' is merely a name. There is actually no one returning and no one not-returning."
    "Tell me, Subhuti. Does a Buddha say to himself, 'I have obtained Perfect Enlightenment.'?"
    "No, lord. There is no such thing as Perfect Enlightenment to obtain. If a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha were to say to himself, 'I am enlightened' he would be admitting there is an individual person, a separate self and personality, and would therefore not be a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha."
    Subhuti then said, "Most Honored One! You have said that I, Subhuti, excel amongst thy disciples in knowing the bliss of Enlightenment, in being perfectly content in seclusion, and in being free from all passions. Yet I do not say to myself that I am so, for if I ever thought of myself as such then it would not be true that I escaped ego delusion. I know that in truth there is no Subhuti and therefore Subhuti abides nowhere, that he neither knows nor does he not know bliss, and that he is neither free from nor enslaved by his passions."
  • edited October 2010
    "To himself", different to say it to others; there are teachings about anatman there. Also, Diamond Sutra's concept of full enlightenment is different from Canon Pali, where we can see clearly the Buddha saying he has attained Nirvana, etc.
    Also, the statement is implicit that his mental continuum is cleaned of all obscurations: not only emotional.
    Also, it is good to go to the sanskrit imho, mere I as being different as the metaphysical connotation of the concept "atman" (diff. between pudgala and atman per se).
    Finally, can a Buddha say he has awaken? Yes he can. Conventionally speaking, not in a ultimate sense.
  • edited October 2010
    Pointing out the "says to himself" wording is clearly playing semantics and going against the intent. How do you tell people you're enlightened without saying to yourself you're enlightened? Wouldn't that be lying? The theme of it is no individual gains because there is no individual separate from others nor attainment separate from what is. Of course if you choose to go the theravada route and deny the diamond sutra that's your choice, but the diamond sutra gives good explanation of why you don't see people claiming to be buddhas or enlightened today.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited October 2010
    valois wrote: »
    Does anybody know or know of anybody who is enlightened?
    How common is it for people to be enlightened in the world, at a sangha?

    Two people I've developed a soft spot for are Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Matthieu Ricard. Anybody know about their levels are spiritual attainment?

    Thanissaro's power level is over 1 million when he goes Super Saiyan.
  • ShiftPlusOneShiftPlusOne Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Jason wrote: »
    Thanissaro's power level is over 1 million when he goes Super Saiyan.

    Over 1 million? There's no way that could be right! :eek:
  • edited October 2010
    Jason wrote: »
    Thanissaro's power level is over 1 million when he goes Super Saiyan.
    over9000.jpg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiMHTK15Pik
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited October 2010
    :D
  • JoshuaJoshua Veteran
    edited October 2010
    LOL
    TheJourney wrote: »
    Let me quote chapter 9 of the diamond sutra for you.

    Hm. Food for thought. This reeks of subtleties as to exactly what enlightenment is. I suppose I should first figure that out. It seems if it's a difficult subject to agree upon then it must by extension be a difficult subject to grasp. For me no doubt fueled by the fact that I've never held the company of monks before.

    But who somebody please shed some light on this concept:
    Ultimate enlightenment is buddhahood. If the dalai lama says he is not enlightened, it means that all of his negative karma has not been exhausted yet, and he is not a buddha. I'm sure he's enlightened using certain definitions of enlightenment, but then again it's not all that rare.
    How in hell (ought I say Niraya?) can the Dalai Lama be a living arahant yet still have karmic debt?
  • edited October 2010
    valois wrote: »
    How in hell (ought I say Niraya?) can the Dalai Lama be a living arahant yet still have karmic debt?

    Please see my post above about that.
  • edited October 2010
    The buddha himself had karmic debt after his enlightenment. That is why he was still here and maintained a personality.
  • edited October 2010
    Who knows really? People who describe themselves as enlightened, except for the Buddha, are in my mind suspect and should be treated only with benign curiosity.


    I agree Sherab.



    .
  • edited October 2010
    There's a very interesting talk from Ajahn Sumedho, as well as a separate question and answer session, called "Who needs Enlightenment when I have my opinions" in the list at this link. Definately worth listening to.


    http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/index.php/teachings/audio





    .
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited October 2010
    Dazzle wrote: »
    There's a very interesting talk from Ajahn Sumedho, as well as a separate question and answer session, called "Who needs Enlightenment when I have my opinions" in the list at this link. Definately worth listening to.


    http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/index.php/teachings/audio





    .


    On a retreat when he was trying to encourage everyone practice through to liberation he said..... " You have to do this yourself. I wish I could do it for you. If I could I would, but it has taken me my whole life to do it myself"

    That was not a claim of enlightenment, but it was a matter of fact ackowledgement of a realized teacher. He also cleared up some misconceptions of what the life for someone like him is like. He still has cares, but they are gone and forgotten once arisen.
  • edited October 2010
    Richard H wrote: »
    On a retreat when he was trying to encourage everyone practice through to liberation he said..... " You have to do this yourself. I wish I could do it for you. If I could I would, but it has taken me my whole life to do it myself"

    That was not a claim of enlightenment, but it was a matter of fact ackowledgement of a realized teacher. He also cleared up some misconceptions of what the life for someone like him is like. He still has cares, but they are gone and forgotten once arisen.


    He's very special.

    _/\_
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited October 2010
    valois wrote: »
    Do you know if historically anyone has ever publically stated their having become enlightened?

    Ajan Maha Boowa, Thailand

    as far as i know He still teaches Dhamma
  • edited October 2010
    TheJourney wrote: »
    The buddha himself had karmic debt after his enlightenment. That is why he was still here and maintained a personality.
    Be careful with the words :P I think it is Karmic residue, not debt. Totally different. He was not conditioned anyhow by karma, while debt conditions the individual. The thing was that when there are causes, and the conditions are presents, with necessity the effect arises; so when Shakyamuni hurt his feet, it was because of that. When one attains enlightenment karma is not destroyed, the reality continues to be as it its: The same it was before you got enlightened, nothing changes (from the point of view of reality).
  • JoshuaJoshua Veteran
    edited October 2010
    I believe I'm beginning to understand, I apparently had an idealized comprehension of an enlightened being beforehand.

    Thanks everybody.
  • edited October 2010
    If any monk had attained any forms of enlightenment they're not allowed to disclose it as that would be violating Lord Buddha's precepts. A monk only does it for the wisdom involved.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited October 2010
    With all due respect, this discussion reminds me of Card Zero of the Great Arcana of the Tarot, the Fool: head in the air and pack on shoulder, he walks over the edge of the cliff with a little dog barking at his heels. "Enlightenment" is as empty as any other concept. It is a trap, a 'glamour' to distract us from the job in hand. Some of us know, in short bursts, what it means but it is, by definition, indescribable, like explaining colours to one born sightless.


  • JoshuaJoshua Veteran
    edited November 2010
    Oh you do have a way of elucidating things Simon
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited November 2010
    valois wrote: »
    Oh you do have a way of elucidating things Simon

    He is declaring his Enlightenment. ;)
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    edited November 2010
    My head hurts :) But there is no "my" and no "head", so I guess it doesn't hurt after all!
  • edited December 2010
    One way to know about a person's spiritual attainment is the way they die.

    spiritual people might become rainbow body, leave indestructable vajra body, or leave holy serica seed etc.

    But then, you have to way till the person die.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited December 2010
    mantra0 wrote: »
    One way to know about a person's spiritual attainment is the way they die.

    spiritual people might become rainbow body, leave indestructable vajra body, or leave holy serica seed etc.

    But then, you have to way till the person die.

    You can believe in fairy-tale legends of incorrupt bodies, be they dead Buddhists or dead Christian saints (Therese of Lisieux, Charles de Foucaud, etc.) if it comforts you.

    The people who have most illuminated my path have done so by how they lived rather than how they died.
  • edited December 2010
    You can believe in fairy-tale legends of incorrupt bodies, be they dead Buddhists or dead Christian saints (Therese of Lisieux, Charles de Foucaud, etc.) if it comforts you.

    The people who have most illuminated my path have done so by how they lived rather than how they died.

    Well, I'm just suggesting one way to verify their "status". One is the way they die.

    Of course, some saints can pull out serica seeds while they are still alive.
  • This question is phrased poorly.

    All people are "enlightened", or nobody is "enlightenend". This is a paradox, but I can explain.

    Either you understand that there is only a single mind, and it is already enlightened (and all the things you thought were sentient beings are understood to be you and you them and all none of the above), or you are still in samsara and you ask questions about this and that one because you consider them to be separate from you.

  • This question is phrased poorly.

    All people are "enlightened", or nobody is "enlightenend". This is a paradox, but I can explain.

    Either you understand that there is only a single mind, and it is already enlightened (and all the things you thought were sentient beings are understood to be you and you them and all none of the above), or you are still in samsara and you ask questions about this and that one because you consider them to be separate from you.

    This! :)
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    All I gotta say is...

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited December 2010
    Valois, there was already a thread about enlightened beings, everyone contributed suggestions and comments. It was pretty interesting. Check it out, it might answer some of your questions. My suggestion was Stevie Wonder. But it could be your highschool janitor. you never know.

    I think we're surrounded by enlightened beings, arhants, bodhisattvas, but they're low-key. It takes a discerning eye and heart to perceive them.

  • it's rare for beings who renounce their egoistic behavior to announce their presence to the world. so it'll be hard to find them.

    However, they strive to engage sentient beings and help them achieve liberation, in various means.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    once i was talking to the zen master at the zen center near my house.
    we talked about korea and he kept pouring me tea.

    oh he also talked about how he loves to ski even though he's really old.
    oh he also makes the best vegan brownies.

    really nice guy, really simple, really down to earth.
    but when you get him into the meditation hall for a talk or zazen meditation, then he's strictly business! SIT!

    honestly this guy is enlightened, his eyes sparkle. but then i think to myself. there really is no difference between this man and anyone else i've met. everyone has has the potential to be who they are.

    so now i've just been trying to see the buddha in everyone.
    which really helps when i am interacting with people.
  • I once asked a Zen master if he has attained enlightenment. He said "Yes! Ask me how!" So I said "Ok how?" He then proceeded to eat an apple.
    So that's what i'm doing wrong. Not enough fruit.

    :orange:
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