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Did the Buddha say "Stuff Happens" unrelated to karma?
Dakini
Veteran
"Sivaka approached Gotama and asked him to comment on the wisely held view that whatever a person experiences as pleasure or pain is the result of his or her former actions (karma). The BUddha said that people who hold such a view "go beyond what is known by themselves and what is reckoned to be true by the world' and are therefore 'in the wrong'. He pointed out how the experience of pleasure or pain may simply be the result of ill health, inclement weather, carelessness or assault. The BUddha thus categorically rejected on of the central dogmas of orthodox Buddhism and, in it place, presented an entirely empirical view of the sources of human experience."
Stephen Batchelor (again!) referring to:S.IV 299-21
Stephen Batchelor (again!) referring to:S.IV 299-21
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Comments
But my understanding of it as that karma can cause us to be born as humans.
Part of being human is “sickness, old age and death”.
So sickness, old age and death (and other stuff as well) are simply part of the human condition and have no specific karmic cause.
If karma is taken in context as being your thoughts, speech and actions that are either wholesome or unwholesome, then karma is only the condition for mental change.
So it depends on your view of karma. I think the thoughts/speech/action view is the most effective, and understanding that everything in your reality happens through cause and effect, conditionality. That is also how the thought/speech/action karma works to free your mind. It points your mind toward the goal.
Skillful karma is the car you drive, though you do not know how the engine works. You're told how to insert the key, what the pedals do, and that it needs gas. Once you master how to start the car and go, it starts and you go! It is the same with your mind. You may not know how it works, but someone figured it out a long time ago and is giving you directions to starting the enlightenment machine.
But this raises the question in my mind: How did that simpler view of karma come to be propagated? If I recall correctly, the Lamrim teachings don't leave any room for chance, for random occurrences. Does this mean that the author/s of those teachings didn't consult the suttras thoroughly? And would the existence of two different views of karma perhaps indicate that the simple view (current life and past life karma determine everything) could have come from Hindu beliefs (as it was apparently already "widespread" at the time that Sivaka queried the Buddha), while this more sophisticated version genuinely represents the Buddha's teachings? I hesitate to post this, but these are the questions that arise when the issue presented in the OP is thought through to its conclusion. :-/
I have so much going on in my life right now, it's a struggle to develop and perpetuate Good kamma, let lone give consideration to such knotty issues as this....
I marvel at those who have the time to devote to such issues.
Truly, I salute you..... *sigh*.....
When your mind is in so many tangles, it becomes the Gordian Knot.
The only way to untangle the Gordian Knot is to cut it through with Diamond Clarity.
Look at Now.
Now is all that matters.
Consider your mental verbal and physical actions, now.
Be the best Buddhist you know how to be.
(If you want to know what you once were, look at your body now.
If you wish to know what you will become, look at your Mind now.)
That works so deeply for me, it brings me personally, to my senses.....:)
I’m inspired to start e new thread !
Time? It takes less than a minute, just long enough for the neurons to fire. And a couple of minutes to type out the question. Actually, I thought it would make a good topic for a separate thread. What tangles? What knot? I already do that. There's plenty of time left over to participate on this forum. I thought this sort of discussion is what the forum was for, in part. Was I mistaken?
I'm beginning to detect an anti-intellectual bent among the membership, which wasn't at all the case when I joined. What's going on? :-/
If all everyone were concerned with is "Now", there would be no planning for the future, no vision for growth, reform, improvement, progress. Being too focussed on "Now" results in society remaining frozen in time, in the case of Tibet: medieval times. One can focus on "Now" and still attend to other matters (paying bills, earning money for the future, exchanging ideas with fellow Buddhists...) But perhaps this is a topic for another thread.
Re: the OP, I recommend this sutta in which the Buddha outlines the often complicated trajectory of the results of kamma. It's long, but the general gloss is that the actual workings of kamma tend to be unpredictable and will not manifest immediately or as expected and, as such, categorical pronouncements about the result of one's actions are misguided in certain contexts.
Also, the word in Pali traditionally used to denote skillful actions (kamma being Pali for "action") is bhavana, meaning "cultivation" as one cultivates the land to plant crops (the Buddha was big on pastoral metaphors). Kamma is not linear. The suffering we experience is contingent on the entire field of kamma we have cultivated -- not just a stray weed here and there. So, if we have spent our days cultivating a mind-state of aversion (hatred, fear, condemnation of self and other, etc.), if we experience a negative result from one of our actions, it will be magnified in this field of unskillful habits. If the field we have cultivated is barren, dry, and parched, a single match will set fire to the whole area. If, on the other hand, we have cultivated skillful qualities of, say, the four brahmaviharas -- lovingkindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity -- we can meet that same kammic result with kindness for our plight, and move on much more freely with our lives. The field is lush and vibrant with beautiful flowers (the Buddha was fond of flowers: there's a chapter in the Dhammapada devoted to them); a match set to the ground will burn itself out and not burn what is growing there.
I share your concern about concentrating on "now" in an unbalanced way.
I agree with Glow and Cloud on this.
*ponder, ponder* (cogitate) .... :scratch:
Yes, but the scale is so huge that it's imponderable. Just think of the karma of this universe for 14.5 billion years. It could be, but the scale is just too large.
Karma is specifically intentional thoughts, speech and actions. The intent itself is the cause (karma), and the effect (fruit) is change in mental tendencies or the planting of seeds that will allow for change in the future, so that the mind is working in congruity with reality. Awake.
That's the easiest way to differentiate. Our only need to understand "karma" is in what is skillful and what is not skillful on this quest to be awake, to be liberated, to be free.
Karma is why the Noble Eightfold Path works! We do this and that with the intent of cultivating this path, and because this is "skillful" intent/karma, it leads toward Nirvana. The Buddha devised this path because it's impossible to explain what Nirvana is directly, and he understood that through skillful cause and effect the mind would end up realizing Nirvana for itself.
And so skillful karma is skillful cause for awakening.
To stretch the metaphor of a field out a bit more, there are aspects of what we cultivate that are out of our control. Whether there is sufficient rain that year or there is a drought, we don't have control over. In such a way, we also have limited control over the "weather patterns" (or "whether patterns") that come into our lives: whether we lived in a loving household where kindness was instilled into us from birth, or a harsh one in which we were constantly criticized; whether we live a life of hardship and many lean days where we could only think of where our next meal would come from, or whether we were well provided-for and had the luxury of investigating spiritual practice; whether the people around us are cruel or toxic, or kind and joyful; whether our society is healthy, or dysfunctional; whether we have biological/genetic predispositions to certain mind-states (anxiety, depression, obsessive-compulsiveness, etc.)... all of these are the weather patterns life deals us. We have no more control over them than whether it rains tomorrow or not.
The Buddha was fond of saying "All beings are the inheritors of their kamma; it is through their actions that they attain happiness or unhappiness." This may seem counter to I've said above. But, taking into account that the Buddha defined his life path as one that leads to the end of suffering, and defined kamma as intentional action, it's clear that he's saying that -- whatever your circumstances are, whatever weather patterns there may be in your life -- you have the potential to cultivate the skillful and bring an end to suffering.
Things that happen to us in life are only sometimes because of our choices, but largely they're just the cause and effect of a large interdependent societal system of humans and their environment. Suffering will always come to us because we can not control everything, and so the only way to be free of suffering is skillful karma that re-aligns the mind with the free-flowing, impermanent, not-self nature of reality.
- Stuff happens that is the result of our karmic seeds (ie, our past actions)
- Stuff also happens that is not directly related to our past actions
- Calculating what is what and all that jazz is impossible and a waste of time
If a farmer's crops freeze due to a freak weather event, it's not necessarily due to karma, it may be due to the weather, which isn't a random event because it works according to natural laws; it only looks random from our perspective? Or it could be due to karma, but we'll never know, so it's all unfathomable?
(OK, I admit, the mind is starting to boggle now. :crazy: )
If we get punched in the face, it may be a result of our karma, or may not be. [Most things fall in this middle-ground where we can sometimes trace it back to our own actions, but most of the time shit just happens and we don't know why.]
If we choose to punch someone, that's our karma. Likely this will result in the scenario above, in which case getting punched ourselves would be a result of our karma.
It always comes back to choice. Karma is our choices. If due to our choices we suffer, that is a fruit of our karma. If it's not tied to any of our choices, it's not fruit of our karma. If we get ill because we chose to do drugs, that's a fruit of our karma. If we get ill by food poisoning or genetic predisposition, that's nothing to do with our karma.
Ya follow?
That pisses you off, so you choose to punch me. That's your karma.
I get punched. That's the fruit of my previous karma (punching you).
I think you're taking karma the Hindu way, like "oh it's my karma to be this way". Karma is our choices, not like we're being controlled by it. It's our control. What we choose to do.
By our choices are we damned, and by our choices are we liberated. If we choose skillfully we'll be free, such as choosing to walk the Noble Eightfold Path, choosing to cultivate wholesome mental states and abandon unwholesome ones.
Ya feel me?
Karma can literally be replaced with the word Choice. It's usually translated as Intentional Thought, Speech, and Actions... but that means Choice. It's what we choose to think, choose to say, and how we choose to act. It makes it much easier to understand this way.
Karma isn't something you create with your choices. Karma is the choice itself. What's created is called vipaka or something. Seed or Fruit (Result) of Karma.
If you punch me, the fruit may be that I punch you back. Or maybe I won't, but then a seed would be planted in your mind (a mental trend) that may result in future choices of similar quality, like you punching someone else because you're used to it, or feeling badly and suffering because of the pain you inflicted, or me getting my buddy to beat you up, or anything.
Karma is the Cause of wholesome or unwholesome Effects (Results/Fruit), and by skillful karma (Choices) we lead the mind toward a wholesome state of awakening called Nirvana! Boo-yah!
Thanks for sticking with this, Cloud.
I hope this helps.
Most things that happen in life are unrelated directly to our choices, but our state of mind? That is very closely related to our choices. It's our state of mind that we look toward, and how to bring it in harmony with reality, and thus bring about the cessation of all suffering! It's really that simple. We can't go astray from trying to understand this, or we simply will not understand and so will not find freedom.
Forget about the farmer and the crops and all that... I was just trying to illustrate what is and what isn't karma, as it is taught.
But I'm no expert.
So... if that's what you mean... no, the Buddha never taught that, and there are plenty of Suttas which discuss this. I think Stephen is full of himself and mis-reads or reads himself into things and doesn't understand much. That's my personal opinion based upon reading the things he has written.
If there is an assailant, you did things to put yourself in that situation, there are causes to that effect. You got off the bus a little early because someone was yelling in the back and so you decided to walk the extra 4 blocks... ooops!! Karma JUST means action, that's all it means, there is no act without a reaction on so many levels. I got hit by a car on my bike the other day, because I decided to not take the crowded street and instead took the less crowded street, and a person got drunk before driving and ran into me then took off. Now due to that cause, I'm suffering the effects of back pain, and cracked ribs, medication, plus I lost my job because it was the last pedicab to rent, and it's totaled. By the way, this is actually happening with me.
People are thinking of karma way too moralistically... it's not just like that... karma JUST means inter-caused activity, nothing more. All these judgements of good and bad are for your inner state, because negative thoughts cause negative circumstances. But, karma is not really a moralistic concept.
There are no self caused situations, there is no self, just relative selves, all inter-woven within a vast net of causation.
There are no random events in the sense that weather is without causes and conditions both primary and secondary for being the way it is. It all has to do with all sorts of patterns, both happening on Earth, the planets around the Earth, the people, including our pollution's, as well as what's going on with trees and fish.
Dakini... just think about it. There is no such thing as an uncaused effect. Even with the movements of our body and our inner weather, it's all caused by all sorts of various paradigms of effects that then act as causes for effect that act as causes... an infinite web of inter-connection.
No, the Buddha never taught that there were stand alone events that self existed.
Karma is only moralistic when applied to human activity, or sentient beings with even a myopic amount of self awareness.
Anyway, the way the farmer responds internally due to the weather outside of his control is due to his personal karma, sanchita karma specifically, as in mental karma.
Some different types of karma... Follow all the different links in the web-link bellow, there should be a number of them dependent upon the links you connect to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchita_karma
But, I see the things that I did internally to put me into these situations. Sometimes I was lazy, so I was really craving money that night, and I was too in a hurry, and wasn't patient with the situation. I rushed into a U-turn on a yellow light due to this, knowing my pedicab was slower than traffic, but this one guy just screeched out of a red light into the green light and just went straight with the peddle to the metal and hit me, without slowing down, kept going and no one got the license plate number, leaving no one for my boss to sue, leaving him with the bill, leaving me without a job and in pain.
No, not really random. I really don't believe in random events when one looks deeply at inter-personal play, including animals, bugs... all sentient beings inter-cause this reality we all join in living in and through.
There are very subtle inner causes to outward events that take some pondering to recognize, and self-honesty...
Why was I lazy? Why was I craving when I finally came out to work? All fear... all fear of different types and causes, but fear none the less. I was not acting in an enlightened way... thus... WHAMO!! I truly see this... there are nuances on a personal level that I'm not able to share through language of course, intuitive nuances that I understand within as to the why's and how's this was indeed mostly, my own personal karmic circumstance with huge lessons to learn about patience and responsibility.
This is why they say the enlightened state is a result of recognizing the nature of things, nothing more, nothing less. It's natural to be wise, because you are now flowing with the reality of things.
@ Robot yeah thats true too. Believing in karma helped me with deciding to take my medication and adopt positive practices towards well being (well as much as I could manage). The reason is that I sensed that things could always be worse. I didn't want them to get worse!
The Tibetan perspective is that we will migrate from world to world (even this one is a microcosm) from all states of pleasure and pain. Infinite shades. Karma is the process of climbing or descending. The human realm is to aquire. And that is why a lot of dharma practice can be made as a human. We can gather the elements needed.
But the actual spiritual practice is not to get to infinite pleasure in the Tibetan tradition. Rather the goal is equanimity, maybe that wrong but its a good direction. For me a healthy sense of karma is that I have to be ready for anything and take my chance to practice today. Which for me it has taken me quite a long time (and I am still working on) getting the right touch of Sano's lute. Too loose or too tight.