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Similarities (Buddhist/Christian)

meh_meh_
edited April 2011 in Buddhism Basics
I was in my religious education lesson today, and the teacher started talking about life after death (Catholic)
Honestly, I had her down as one of those people who interprets the bible literally - but she started saying how 'heaven' was an 'altered state of being' and how 'heaven and eternal life can be achieved now, on a different plane of existence'. So I was thinking - is the Christian heaven - basically - englightenment?

With 'purgatory' and 'hell' being continuations of samsara, based upon our karma?
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Comments

  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    the concept of heaven is very different from that of nirvana.

    samsara can be viewed as purgatory.
  • meh_meh_
    the concept of heaven is very different from that of nirvana.

    samsara can be viewed as purgatory.
    How so?
    I mean, not taking the christian teachings 100% - but its basically a mental state in which you experience 'the love of god' which, given that the bible is an archaic text - could possibly refer to the bliss that accompanies englightenment.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    Well, I think you can certainly present Christian ideas in a more or less Buddhistic way, and vice versa. For example, our dear friend Simon shared with me some of his ideas regarding the "excellence of the synthesis of the messages and practices" of Buddhism and Christianity.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    when you talk about the "new" christians aka rob bell and crew then you're talking about hell/heaven in a different manner. for instance rob bell asserts that heaven/hell on earth is important for those who are living here right now.

    now many christians hate and go bat shit crazy when they hear this. why? it's because most christians focus on the next life and are motivated by fear.

    the new christians aka rob bell and crew are motivated by love. they see the teaching of jesus as teachings of love. so these these guys are motivated by love not fear.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited April 2011
    Speaking of love, I think another possible similarity between the two is their focus on the salvific power of love. In Richard Gombrich's new book, What the Buddha Thought, for example, he mentions that, while the idea of love or compassion being salvific seemingly goes against Theravada tradition, there are texts extolling kindness and compassion and how they can lead to enlightenment. One is the Metta Sutta (found at Khp 9 and Snp 1.8), which begins with extolling kindness towards the world and climaxing with this passage:
    Towards the whole world one should develop loving thoughts boundless: upwards, downwards, sideways, without restriction, enmity or rivalry. Standing, walking, sitting or lying, one should be as alert as possible and keep one's mind on this. They call this divine living in the world. Not taking up ideas, virtuous with perfect insight, by controlling greed for sensual pleasure one does not return to lie in the womb. (Gombrich's translation)
    He notes that, "This conclusion to the poem surely corroborates that the whole poem is about how one may become enlightened. Moreover, it is natural to interpret 'not returning to lie in the womb' as meaning that one will have escaped altogether from the cycle of rebirth, which is to say that one will have attained nirvana" (87). Of course, he's careful to point out that the poem doesn't state kindness alone will produce salvific results, and that it mentions other qualities of great importance (e.g., insight and self-control), but then he brings up Dhp 368:
    The monk who dwells in kindness, with faith in the Buddha's teachings, may attain the peaceful state, the blissful cessation of conditioning. (Gombrich's tranlsation)
    Gombrich concludes this passage is "saying that kindness is salvific, and it is surely no coincidence that the term for nirvana, 'the peaceful state', is the same as the one used at the opening of the Metta Sutta" (87). So while I don't think that love alone can lead to nibbana, I'm more inclined to agree with Gombrich that it can be salvific in the proper context. It's one of the ten perfections, after all, which are not only the skillful qualities one develops as one follows the path to nibbana, but the basis of the path to full Buddhahood as well. And this, I think, accords well with passages in the bible such as, "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love" (1 John 4:8). Just some food for thought.

  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    Some comparisons are valid. I cannot quote the source, but I have read somewhere that electroencephalogram activity compared between Buddhists meditating and Christians "contemplating" is similar.

    People are people, wherever they are in the world. You will see similarities in religious experience because of that.

    But there are valid comparisons to be made. It's almost a given. Islamic Sufi mysticism would be another example, as in the poetry of Rumi and references to "union with the divine".
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    the concept of heaven is very different from that of nirvana.

    samsara can be viewed as purgatory.
    How so?
    I mean, not taking the christian teachings 100% - but its basically a mental state in which you experience 'the love of god' which, given that the bible is an archaic text - could possibly refer to the bliss that accompanies englightenment.
    being in the presence of a genocidal, megalomaniac and arrogant god is not even comparable to nirvana.
  • meh_meh_
    Would it be fair to say - that following any religion, in a morally correct way - will put you 'on the path' to enlightenment
  • meh_meh_
    the concept of heaven is very different from that of nirvana.

    samsara can be viewed as purgatory.
    How so?
    I mean, not taking the christian teachings 100% - but its basically a mental state in which you experience 'the love of god' which, given that the bible is an archaic text - could possibly refer to the bliss that accompanies englightenment.
    being in the presence of a genocidal, megalomaniac and arrogant god is not even comparable to nirvana.
    No, that is the point I am making Vicenzi - not taking god literally.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    Would it be fair to say - that following any religion, in a morally correct way - will put you 'on the path' to enlightenment
    I think a key element is inner contemplation, whether Buddhist meditation, Gnostic Christian or Sufi meditation, in addition to following a moral code and developing compassion.

  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    ...is the Christian heaven - basically - englightenment? With 'purgatory' and 'hell' being continuations of samsara, based upon our karma?
    It probably started out that way in Christ's teachings, but has since been corrupted for the most part. You can find similar corruptions in certain threads of Buddhism, too. Pure Land Buddhism is particularly prone to egotistical concern for post-mortem survival in a heavenly existence.

    The Sufi "Story of Fire" is highly relevant, here.
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited April 2011
    I think a key element is inner contemplation, whether Buddhist meditation, Gnostic Christian or Sufi meditation, in addition to following a moral code and developing compassion.
    I agree. Moral prescriptions are all very well, but how to live up to them? How do you love your neighbor as yourself when he's taking a nightly dump on your lawn? Buddhist practice provides an answer to this (metta meditation) which has no formal equivalent in mainstream Christian practice (though it has survived in a few pockets, like the practices of the Trappist monks, or the initiation rites of the Jesuits.)
  • meh_meh_
    Also - If you assume some degree of validity in the bible's teachings - Christ could have been putting the path to enlightenment in a way for the perhaps slightly less intelligent people of the time - who also had a background in the Jewish faith
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    The Christian canon is woefully incomplete. There's some discussion of the history/politics behind its compilation in Misquoting Jesus. The Gospel of Thomas seems to come closer to Buddhist teachings...
  • tesstess
    Assuming that I am right, / novice in Buddhism/ Buddha said:

    Trust your own judgment.

    Why so many people on here search for acknowledgment that religion i.e. dogma is the right pass.
  • tesstess
    Who cares, Buddha, Jesus, and Allah?

    All of them carry the same moral messages.

    Sure, their ideas were corrupted by political institutions – church.

    However,

    Does it matter how many times we try to compare them?


    My question is why in of individuals live without practicing their basic moral teaching?


  • SabreSabre Veteran
    while the idea of love or compassion being salvific seemingly goes against Theravada tradition,
    To my knowledge Theravada also does metta meditation, it is of big importance to overcome anger/ill will.
  • SeMichSeMich Explorer
    I do not think that the two traditions are similar at all. Remember that we are discussing traditions, and the traditional teaching is not that hell or heaven are states of mind. The traditional teaching (and the one embraced by most Christians and most Christian authorities on the subject) is that hell and heaven are places where divine retribution and reward are meted out by an omniscient, omnipotent being that created man in its image and likeness, created a being that would tempt said humans, and punished the humans with original sin and banishment from paradise for failing to resist that temptation.

    Does any of this remotely resemble any Buddhist principles? Keeping in mind that "god as metaphor" and "heaven and hell are states of mind" are very recent heterodox beliefs. It is certainly possible for individual Christians to be influenced by dharmic religions, and to incorporate them into their own religious tradition accordingly. But this is similar to incorporating the Buddha as an avatar in Hinduism; it does not make the teachings comparable.
  • meh_meh_
    Tess, It's a personal interest thing - I'm currently in a Catholic school where Jesus is regularly crammed down my throat - and seeing connections between the two religions is kind of interesting to me. I have been a christian for like 80% of my life, so seeing where the biblical teachings I grew up with fit into my current ones - a) helps me to let go of my previous clingings to the idea of a god etc. and b) is just plain interesting for me.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Just a few random thoughts on the posted topic, NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE SPECIFIC:

    1. Why does anyone feel that they have to prove one "religion" is "right" while another religion is "wrong"?
    2. Why does anyone feel that all the world's wisdom is only in one particular religion?
    3. As Anwar Sadat once lamented, why do we spend so much time seeking out the differences between religions, while virtually ignoring areas of similarities?
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited April 2011
    while the idea of love or compassion being salvific seemingly goes against Theravada tradition,
    To my knowledge Theravada also does metta meditation, it is of big importance to overcome anger/ill will.
    Sure, but the general consensus in Thervada has traditional been that the four brahmaviharas themselves only lead to rebirth in the Brahma realms, not nibbana; and their potential salvific properties are therefore often neglected.

  • tesstess
    Tess, It's a personal interest thing - I'm currently in a Catholic school where Jesus is regularly crammed down my throat - and seeing connections between the two religions is kind of interesting to me. I have been a christian for like 80% of my life, so seeing where the biblical teachings I grew up with fit into my current ones - a) helps me to let go of my previous clingings to the idea of a god etc. and b) is just plain interesting for me.

    This is the typical example to why I’ve wanted to know the participant’s age on here.

    I don’t know how to answer your question.

    My advice is:


    Spend as little time evaluating dogmas in your life.

    All the other open minded Buddhist will /hopefully/ add to it.


    PS

    You said:

    ''my previous clingings ''

    Be prepared that being open minded will be a story of your life. It is painful but fulfilling.






    :wave:
  • meh_meh_
    To quote tim minchin - "If you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out"

    Tess - I still have this underlying clinging to the idea of a god, due to my upbringing - however I do not believe in it. For me to get this rough concept of how all religions are on the same path, and all have similarities etc., I find helpful. We all have clingings and attachments, do we not Tess, I'm trying to let go of them :)
  • tesstess
    To quote tim minchin - "If you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out"

    Tess - I still have this underlying clinging to the idea of a god, due to my upbringing - however I do not believe in it. For me to get this rough concept of how all religions are on the same path, and all have similarities etc., I find helpful. We all have clingings and attachments, do we not Tess, I'm trying to let go of them :)

    Me too: ""We all have clingings and attachments"" and I share your pain of letting them go. I am trying, but trust me - it is difficult. Good luck with yours.
  • meh_meh_
    To quote tim minchin - "If you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out"

    Tess - I still have this underlying clinging to the idea of a god, due to my upbringing - however I do not believe in it. For me to get this rough concept of how all religions are on the same path, and all have similarities etc., I find helpful. We all have clingings and attachments, do we not Tess, I'm trying to let go of them :)

    Me too: ""We all have clingings and attachments"" and I share your pain of letting them go. I am trying, but trust me - it is difficult. Good luck with yours.
    I have this ever so slight underlying urge to pray to a god I don't believe in, whenever I feel afraid of what the future will bring. Thankyou childhood -.-

    I don't know how long it will take to fully let go... but I guess rationalising things helps me

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    One way to let go, is to stop using phrases like 'Jeezus kerrist!' or 'Oh my God!' or yet again, 'ferkerrist's sake!'

    The more you detatch from the habit of invoking, the less of a tendency it becomes.

    Besides, if you're practising Buddhism, it's disrespectful to another religion to take their God's name in vain.
    I personally think that, anyway....
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    ...

    Besides, if you're practising Buddhism, it's disrespectful to another religion to take their God's name in vain.
    I personally think that, anyway....
    I think that's very true, Federica, and an important point for all of us to remember as we compare religions.

  • Malachy12Malachy12
    @frederica Oh I don't know. My favorite swear is "sweet baby jebus". Mocking the divine, seems to make me more grounded. For instance, My dog has decided to destroy any Buddha statue I own. I have glued them together many times. He's bitten the head off of the statues, and gnawed them in his kennel. He destroys nothing in the house... except the Buddha. He's climbed on the table to take a Buddha down and bite the head off. At first I thought "Hey, those are really special to me!" But now I think I am being taught not to hold something as more divine than anything else.
    Of course, mocking a religion casually in front of a devoted person is purposefully hurtful, so I do have to watch it in public.
  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    Who cares, Buddha, Jesus, and Allah?

    All of them carry the same moral messages.

    Sure, their ideas were corrupted by political institutions – church.

    However,

    Does it matter how many times we try to compare them?


    My question is why in of individuals live without practicing their basic moral teaching?


    they don't carry the same moral messages.

    Abrahamic religions promote intolerance and hatred against "the others".
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    you mean the people do.
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    People who practise them.
  • meh_meh_
    Vincenzi you are confused between the religion, and the fan club
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2011
    I don't agree meh, though I think Vincenzi is angry at Christianity. The bible which is the text Christians go by, the Old Testament portion. That bible has examples of God which are incompatible with Buddhism.

    One example would be telling his followers to rape the women of the tribe they had just conquered.

    This does not mean that Christian practioners are not loving. Unlike Ghandi, I like Christians. I just don't like their God.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Christians go by the New Testament.
    I believe you'll find that the Old Testament is more in line with Judaic thinking.....
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I thought they believe in both?
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited April 2011
    Personally, I think Christianity would be much better off just sticking with the Jefferson Bible.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Christians view the OT more as an anecdotal history bringing us into the present. They seem to view it as a prelude, but not as something to adhere to verbatim.
    So I understand from my Catholic days.... YMMV.....
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    It is really hard, in these times of war, to hold to a middle way, with tolerance and moderation as our guides. The Jesus message is let down by Christians such as those cretins who burned the Q'ran and now disavow the results. The Mosaic message is let down by Israeli warmongers. The Mahomet message is let down by terrorist Islamicists. The message of the Gita is let down by Hindu fundamentalists. Even the Buddha's message is let down by soi disants Buddhist regimes as in Burma.

    Yet, at bottom, all these apparently disparate groups are simply sets of beliefs. If only people would look beyond and understand the undergirding principle of faith in liberation as expressed, for example, in the Third Noble Truth or the 'Jesus Jubilee' that frees the anawim. It is this 'faith' (Gr. pistis), quite separate from any system of beliefs, which sustains us when our practice seems stale and even painful. Whatever texts or beliefs that can usefully/skillfully empower our practice in the world seem OK by me, just so long as they are read as inclusive rather than exclusive.

    We are blessed to live in a time when even the Catholic Church has (almost) abandoned its extra ecclesia nulla salus stance (thank you, Pope John XXIII) and dialogue exists between the belief families. Our job, as I see it, is to look for the overlaps, the commonalities, rather than banging on about differences. That, after all, is the key to understanding the moral of the story of the Good Samaritan: it is not so much about charitable action as an answer to Cain's question to Yahweh: "Am I my sibling's keeper?"

  • meh_meh_
    Thankyou Simon - That did make me think... also that I am actually quite critical of a few of the Christians that I know, which really - is the opposite of how I should be behaving. I guess it is because I am unsure about my beliefs, but this has really made me think, thankyou.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    You are welcome, @meh.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Nothing wrong with discussing the differences, so long as one isn't attached to either side. Such discussions can be informative. Conversely, some people are averse to having some of the similarities pointed out; it depends on which similarities are chosen. Some Buddhists, I've noticed, don't like to hear that Buddhism has Puritanical aspects similar to Christianity, for example. They key is to approach any discussion on comparative religion in the spirit of genuine and open inquiry, with no attachment as to the results. Perhaps easier said than done.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Could you elaborate on the similar Puritanical aspects you're referring to?

    many thanks! :)
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Some of the precepts, for ex.: no music, no frequenting of theatrical productions, various sexual prohibitions even for lay people, the idea that babies, infants are conditioned to the material world from the start, and therefore estranged from ultimate reality (similar to the idea of babies being "sinners" (estranged from God). These, off the top of my head.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    edited April 2011
    Some monastic traditions allow monks to have consorts and to marry. Those that don't are considered by some to be the "puritan Buddhists".
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Nothing wrong with discussing the differences, so long as one isn't attached to either side. Such discussions can be informative. Conversely, some people are averse to having some of the similarities pointed out; it depends on which similarities are chosen. Some Buddhists, I've noticed, don't like to hear that Buddhism has Puritanical aspects similar to Christianity, for example. They key is to approach any discussion on comparative religion in the spirit of genuine and open inquiry, with no attachment as to the results. Perhaps easier said than done.
    Very well put...a sense of open-mindedness and balance is what is needed.
  • meh_meh_
    I'm so not cut out for Buddhism...
    Gotta spend more time on the cushion methinks!
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    I have a Dzogchen book entitled Buddhism Without Meditation but we really need Meditation Without Buddhism; Prayer Without God.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    what we really need is Meditation Without Buddhism; Prayer Without God.
    I like it. I'm not sure why, but I like it. :)
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    There are times when the best way to engage in prayer is not, alas, to say "Our Father" but, rather, "To Whom It May Concern". I find this a ueful stepping-stone between the two whirlpools of theism and non-theism.
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    , "To Whom It May Concern".

    :lol:
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