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"Mean" jokes and Right Speech?

ScelerataScelerata
edited June 2011 in Buddhism Basics
Forgive me if this isn't quite in the right place, I'm new here, as it were.

I really can't consider myself a Buddhist, perse, because I'm simply too new to the belief system; it'd be a bit like calling myself a race car driver just because I got to sit behind the wheel of a car. I've been trying, however, in my own small and clumsy way, to practice such things as Right Speech, and what not, and I had something of a small curiosity.

You see, my friends and I make something of mean jokes to each other sometimes. There's no intention of hurting anyone's feelings and there's no actual animosity behind them, but at the very least, on the surface, they probably sound pretty hateful. For example, my best friend might poke fun at me for something, to which I would respond, "I'm not your friend anymore.", and he'll say to me, "Pfft, thank God, I was hoping you'd go away." I don't really feel like this would be counter indicative to Right Speech, or thought, or whatever else have you, since there's no actual animosity involved; we both think it's funny, and we go about our time together as joyously as before, if not moreso. Still, what do I know? I'm not particularly versed in this sort of thing, so I'm curious, what are your opinions on the matter? Is it okay, from a Buddhist point of view, to say 'mean' things, or make 'mean' jokes when the context of these things is one of understood humor?

Comments

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Intention is the most important thing. The Dalai Lama and many other Tibetan Buddhists that I've seen and interacted with often tease others in a freindly way. With your freind they know its a joke and that you don't mean it. Its important to be careful though not to get so used to only interacting that way so that you do it with someone who doesn't understand that you're just joking.
  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    The example you give seems pretty harmless. Like all things in the Eightfold Path, it tends to be situational. A "worse" mean joke might not be right speech.
  • ScelerataScelerata
    Its important to be careful though not to get so used to only interacting that way so that you do it with someone who doesn't understand that you're just joking.
    I've been in situations like that before. I didn't actually offend the person involved, but some of her relatives who were there at the time took me seriously, and became pretty upset on her behalf...it wasn't a pleasant situation, haha.

    Sherab: How far is going 'too far', in your opinion? Some pretty outlandish things have been said between me and friends...we've even joked about killing each other in their sleep. Not that we would, of course.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    One of the things I think you also have to be alert to is that your joking with each other doesn't become the whole relationship, to the point where you never have good, positive conversations.
    lobster
  • ScelerataScelerata
    One of the things I think you also have to be alert to is that your joking with each other doesn't become the whole relationship, to the point where you never have good, positive conversations.
    That's...a really excellent point; thankfully, it isn't the case with my closer friends, by any means, but it's the basis for a lot of casual friendships in culture as a whole and I can see how it could be pretty self destructive. I've never felt particularly good about friendships in which the only commonality we share is a sarcastic sense of humor and little else. It feels sort of hollow in that situation, if that makes sense.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    One of the things I think you also have to be alert to is that your joking with each other doesn't become the whole relationship, to the point where you never have good, positive conversations.
    That's...a really excellent point; thankfully, it isn't the case with my closer friends, by any means, but it's the basis for a lot of casual friendships in culture as a whole and I can see how it could be pretty self destructive. I've never felt particularly good about friendships in which the only commonality we share is a sarcastic sense of humor and little else. It feels sort of hollow in that situation, if that makes sense.

    Yes, it makes perfect sense. I can be sarcastically funny, and often as a teacher that worked in favor of relationships with students (believe it or not), but it only worked positively when it was very occasional and sort of "broke the ice". I learned early on to allow it -- in either direction -- only very occasionally.

  • VincenziVincenzi Veteran
    just remember that communication isn't only language, there's also the tone and expression that accompany it (language is less than 40% of the total communication).
  • ScelerataScelerata
    just remember that communication isn't only language, there's also the tone and expression that accompany it (language is less than 40% of the total communication).
    That's another really good point I haven't considered...and honestly probably should, since I have something of a bland sense of body language that makes me kind of unreadable to others. I guess it really doesn't matter what ones intentions are if, in the end, you still come off as serious, cruel, or callous.

  • jlljll Veteran
    Lighten up, Buddhists have sense of humor, too.
  • SherabDorjeSherabDorje
    Sherab: How far is going 'too far', in your opinion? Some pretty outlandish things have been said between me and friends...we've even joked about killing each other in their sleep. Not that we would, of course.
    Like I say, it's just situational. There are too many variables involved to make a definitive statement about what is "too far". That's why I mentioned that the 8FP is for the most part situational.

    In other words, "beats the heck out of me". Ask the person it happens to- they may be ok with it and they may not.
  • ScelerataScelerata
    Lighten up, Buddhists have sense of humor, too.
    My fundamentally protestant friend could say she has a sense of humor too but she'd probably consider a 'dead baby' joke pretty un-Christian, so it's fair to be considered about 'un-Buddhist' lines of thought or humor, right?

    It's going to sound weird, but one of the biggest things stopping me from trying to walk a more Buddhist path in life is the thought that I'd be a terrible Buddhist. /facepalm
    lobster
  • BlackmothBlackmoth
    Lighten up, Buddhists have sense of humor, too.
    My fundamentally protestant friend could say she has a sense of humor too but she'd probably consider a 'dead baby' joke pretty un-Christian, so it's fair to be considered about 'un-Buddhist' lines of thought or humor, right?

    It's going to sound weird, but one of the biggest things stopping me from trying to walk a more Buddhist path in life is the thought that I'd be a terrible Buddhist. /facepalm
    That is not something you shold be worried about.. Being a buddhist shold never be mentaly uncomfortable. as long as you feel good about what you practice in buddhism i wold personaly call you a good buddhist. the buddha taught that we shold test his teachings before whe cold say that they were good for us or not (not the presice words) so what ever teachings you practise make shure that thay work for you and that you are comfortable with them and you shold have nothing to worry about. :)
  • ScelerataScelerata
    Lighten up, Buddhists have sense of humor, too.
    My fundamentally protestant friend could say she has a sense of humor too but she'd probably consider a 'dead baby' joke pretty un-Christian, so it's fair to be considered about 'un-Buddhist' lines of thought or humor, right?

    It's going to sound weird, but one of the biggest things stopping me from trying to walk a more Buddhist path in life is the thought that I'd be a terrible Buddhist. /facepalm
    That is not something you shold be worried about.. Being a buddhist shold never be mentaly uncomfortable. as long as you feel good about what you practice in buddhism i wold personaly call you a good buddhist. the buddha taught that we shold test his teachings before whe cold say that they were good for us or not (not the presice words) so what ever teachings you practise make shure that thay work for you and that you are comfortable with them and you shold have nothing to worry about. :)
    Ahaha, well thank you for those words. I have a great interest in Buddhism, and so much of it makes sense, but, haha, my self esteem and self loathing is pretty intense, so...I tend to doubt myself in regard to everything, not just in matters of faith. Thanks for the reaffirmation, though, it's genuinely helpful.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    It's going to sound weird, but one of the biggest things stopping me from trying to walk a more Buddhist path in life is the thought that I'd be a terrible Buddhist. /facepalm
    No need to put additional pressure on yourself. Following the Buddhist path isn't really about just adopting a set of rules and trying to follow them as well as you can. Its more about changing the way you look at the world so you can live a happier more meaningful life. You don't get any points for doing it right, the only real benefit is when you can use the teachings to change your mental state. So it really doesn't matter if you suck at Buddhism since no ones keeping score except yourself and there's no test to pass. Try not to think about it in terms of right and wrong but more in terms of consequences of behaviors that will lead you to more or less suffering and more or less happiness.
    lobster
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    In my experience with over the line humor, it is fine as long as everyone involved feels secure in the loving quality of the friendship. Where buddhist practice comes into play is if hurt feelings arise, such as with the relatives. In that moment, joking is abandoned to allow genuine compassion. Sort of like playing baseball is abandoned if we sprain our ankle.

    As long as we remain alert to that pain, and stop and nuture it if it arises, any joking won't disrupt our cultivating mindfulness. Often, really over the line kinds of humor can help bring fears into the light and heal them. People like Louis CK and Sam Kinison do/did this with adept skill.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran

    @Scelerata said:
    Lighten up, Buddhists have sense of humor, too.

    My sense of humour is funny. In a terrible rather than terribly funny sort of whey/way. I like pun FUNS. I also like children but not with rice pudding. :mrgreen:

    Humour, even very intense or based on our deepest atrocities: war, pedophile, cannibal sandwiches, heavy metal music etc. are based on fear or coping mechanisms. They are cathartic. Is humour only based on dad jokes or clean Christmas cracker jokes that upset no one?

    Personally I like Buddhist crackers, that are empty, never to pull and go off like a damp squid [sic]

    My fundamentally protestant friend could say she has a sense of humor too but she'd probably consider a 'dead baby' joke pretty un-Christian, so it's fair to be considered about 'un-Buddhist' lines of thought or humor, right?

    We have a humour section in best of. It is very varied. We have done all the obvious Buddhist jokes but some may be new to you … <3

    It's going to sound weird, but one of the biggest things stopping me from trying to walk a more Buddhist path in life is the thought that I'd be a terrible Buddhist. /facepalm

    I certainly hope you will be bad. I need the company. ;) You don't have to be a buddhist, whatever that is meant to be … You can just ask questions as you have done. Try to remember the four NobleTruths of Humour.

    1. Existence is no joke … or then again maybe it is
    2. The cause of jokes are smiles
    3. The best way to smile is practice
    4. Practice the 8 fold jollity (available at usual outlets)

    https://buddhismnow.com/2014/05/31/the-laughing-buddha-humour-and-the-spiritual-life-by-dennis-sibley/

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