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What kinds of abuse occurs in tantra? NOT whether buddha taught NOT abuse in guru
compassionate warrior, I guess I didn't get on that train in your earlier post so to speak. There have been so many threads, maybe Dakini can explain to me why giving candy to children in order to have sex with them is one of the highest rituals in tantra which the Dalai Lama has taught.
That would be quite a shocking discovery and it contradicts what my lama has said. I assume she is more informed than we are.
Yeah, it's been confusing, jumping back and forth between texts, not to mention all the threads. The author of the "Commentary" book was taught (as in: lectured about) those rituals by HHDL. The DL included the part about offering candy (or alcohol, or whatever it was) I imagine, because it's part of the oral transmission, part of the instructions for the ritual. That doesn't mean he's ever actually performed what's in the book. Someone said here in these threads that when he gives the public part of the Kalachakra to crowds around the world, he apologizes for the passages that say really negative things about women, and explains that those lines are there to keep monks on track with celibacy. So I'm sure he's sensitive about the enticement or coercement issue is the higher text.
Though Vincenzi raised a good point: if there are parts of a text or ritual that aren't ethical, why transmit it? Maybe it's a good thing he did, because now it's available for scholars to study, and now it's out in the open. Some "advanced practitioners" may feel that's a bad thing, but I don't.
One more point re: do these texts really exist as presented? Even if we were to find the equivalent for the other 3 TB schools, they wouldn't be readable unless someone knows how to interpret the "twilight language". And scholars of tantra say that in some cases, entire passages were left out, entire pages sometimes, so that outsiders wouldn't see what was really going on if they managed to get their hands on the texts. So it's possible that even if we had the texts in hand, we wouldn't be able to convince you, see what I mean?
Yes, you have been confused with the sex manual and the commentary, only I can say that the sex manual was based on the tantra texts.
as i said in another post, all gurus systems are about the same in hinduism and tibetan buddhism. both are authoritarian powers and therefore both have the ability for abuse in them. gurus and lamas have no one to answer too. and as i said "power corrupts," and i know that is an old saying and yet very true.
I can only hope that there are lamas out there that don't abuse their power. But why does a lama even have the power? Why are we giving it to them?
By the way, the list of gurus who abused their power is a mile long. I doubt if you can even find a Hindu guru who has not had sex with a disciple. And in TB there are the secret teachings and so only a few get to learn them and then they have to keep them secret. If someone has sex with a lama, they can't talk about it. This, too, is an abuse of power, especially when to talk about it with anyone is to end up in hell. Even reading about it sends you there. I call having to have secrets with the fear of hell or the fear that speaking out may cause the lama to harm you through the use of his powers, abusive. Wouldn't you say so? This is what happened to June Campbell.
I can only hope that there are lamas out there that don't abuse their power. But why does a lama even have the power? Why are we giving it to them?
Anyone in a position of authority has power. Most people are trusting, so it doesn't occur to them that they have to research their priest, rabbi, lama or roshi. But now some of us are sadder but wiser. Naivete can be dangerous.
"From my limited understanding of the situation there are three (or more!) different things going on here. Firstly you have the clash between the traditional, male dominated cultures where the Buddhism arose and the somewhat more liberal views and approach to women of the West. Second there are the basically good teachers who have sexual relationships with some of their students - somewhat like professors have affairs with their students. Then there are the out and out charlatans who see being a spiritual teacher as a wonderful gravy train to jump on. Unfortunately - or not - people are people, with all the mixed motivations and behaviour...whether they have the label Buddhist or anything else. Some are more 'pure' in their motivation and behaviour than others. A very good reason to choose your teacher wisely.
Oh, and I've just thought of a fourth! I think when you are talking about Tantric practitioners that is something else again. As I understand it, any sexual union taking part within this yana is a culmination of a great deal of preparation and training. It should never involve abuse of any kind. If it does that seems totally counter to what it's aims are."
Comments
That would be quite a shocking discovery and it contradicts what my lama has said. I assume she is more informed than we are.
Though Vincenzi raised a good point: if there are parts of a text or ritual that aren't ethical, why transmit it? Maybe it's a good thing he did, because now it's available for scholars to study, and now it's out in the open. Some "advanced practitioners" may feel that's a bad thing, but I don't.
One more point re: do these texts really exist as presented? Even if we were to find the equivalent for the other 3 TB schools, they wouldn't be readable unless someone knows how to interpret the "twilight language". And scholars of tantra say that in some cases, entire passages were left out, entire pages sometimes, so that outsiders wouldn't see what was really going on if they managed to get their hands on the texts. So it's possible that even if we had the texts in hand, we wouldn't be able to convince you, see what I mean?
Yes, you have been confused with the sex manual and the commentary, only I can say that the sex manual was based on the tantra texts.
as i said in another post, all gurus systems are about the same in hinduism and tibetan buddhism. both are authoritarian powers and therefore both have the ability for abuse in them. gurus and lamas have no one to answer too. and as i said "power corrupts," and i know that is an old saying and yet very true.
I can only hope that there are lamas out there that don't abuse their power. But why does a lama even have the power? Why are we giving it to them?
By the way, the list of gurus who abused their power is a mile long. I doubt if you can even find a Hindu guru who has not had sex with a disciple. And in TB there are the secret teachings and so only a few get to learn them and then they have to keep them secret. If someone has sex with a lama, they can't talk about it. This, too, is an abuse of power, especially when to talk about it with anyone is to end up in hell. Even reading about it sends you there. I call having to have secrets with the fear of hell or the fear that speaking out may cause the lama to harm you through the use of his powers, abusive. Wouldn't you say so? This is what happened to June Campbell.
which one do you think is more in line with Buddhism?
"From my limited understanding of the situation there are three (or more!) different things going on here. Firstly you have the clash between the traditional, male dominated cultures where the Buddhism arose and the somewhat more liberal views and approach to women of the West. Second there are the basically good teachers who have sexual relationships with some of their students - somewhat like professors have affairs with their students. Then there are the out and out charlatans who see being a spiritual teacher as a wonderful gravy train to jump on. Unfortunately - or not - people are people, with all the mixed motivations and behaviour...whether they have the label Buddhist or anything else. Some are more 'pure' in their motivation and behaviour than others. A very good reason to choose your teacher wisely.
Oh, and I've just thought of a fourth! I think when you are talking about Tantric practitioners that is something else again. As I understand it, any sexual union taking part within this yana is a culmination of a great deal of preparation and training. It should never involve abuse of any kind. If it does that seems totally counter to what it's aims are."