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Sorry Guy. I don't get involved in useless conversations with people who turn out to be conspiracy thinkers.
... Having attempted to correct my error can you please forgive me and grant me the honor and privilege of engaging in respectful dialog with you?
I'll keep an open mind, watch the discussion, and if it appears that reentering it would be beneficial, I'll do so. But that will not occur if the discussion is merely conspiracy thinking.
I'll keep an open mind, watch the discussion, and if it appears that reentering it would be beneficial, I'll do so. But that will not occur if the discussion is merely conspiracy thinking.
Again, by definition, even the Official 9/11 Commission Report supports "conspiracy thinking".
The theory that a group of radical Muslims operating out of cave hideouts in the hills of Afghanistan conspired against the most powerful nation in the world and successfully pulled off one of the most elaborate terrorist attacks in history is, by definition, a "conspiracy theory".
By definition, everyone involved in this discussion could arguably be called a "conspiracy theorist" (including you if you believe the 9/11 Commission Report), rendering the term meaningless. So why don't we put the name-calling aside and have an intelligent discussion?
GuyC, Why are you asking us to disprove you? Why are you making us to show the burden of proof?
Show me you evidence supporting your theories. A video claiming a guy said this is not EVIDENCE! The burden of proof is on YOU and not us. I am not going to debate you anymore until you give me valuable evidence to support your claim.
I suggest you watch this and LEARN:
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
The theory that a group of radical Muslims operating out of cave hideouts in the hills of Afghanistan conspired against the most powerful nation in the world and successfully pulled off one of the most elaborate terrorist attacks in history is, by definition, a "conspiracy theory".
Learning to fly planes and use boxcutters to frighten the passengers into submission isn't that elaborate.
I only watched the first of the architects videos but he went through 10 or so reasons why WTC7 was demolished and from my limited knowledge most of them would be the same as if the building collapsed on itself from structural damage. He also talked about an office fire not being hot enough to melt steel, this is were I tuned out since the tower fires weren't office fires they were jet fuel fires. At that point it seemed apparent to me that he had an agenda and was looking for evidence that supported his already held conclusion instead of accumulating evidence and trying to come to some conclusion.
I want to hear physical, first-hand evidence from a civilian in the war zones that there is a powerful Al Qaida that is truly a threat. Otherwise it is just as likely to be propaganda as anything else. A friend of mine from Egypt is sure that the CIA started their protests that kicked their ruler.
Amelia, that's what my adopted Pakistani friends ALL said...that the CIA executred 911. How come you believe the enemy's propaganda?
I haven't formed my opinion either way. I just know that there are many sides to the story and I am trying to keep up. I do feel that we are more accountable in these situations than we let on. I don't consider my friend "the enemy". He and his family moved here because he couldn't practice Christianity as comfortably in Alexandria as he used to.
Debunking videos prove nothing about the masterminds behind 9/11. 9/11 was used for unrelated invasions of Iraq and Afganistan. The US govt lied about the reasons for these invasions. The US govt was backed heavily by oil industry interests and, itself, was comprised of ex-oil executives, it appears. I have heard, as there is a trend today, that Iraq was behind plans to start an oil exchange where oil trading was not conducted in US dollars. This would have dire effects on the US economy and interests given the US would have to earn foreign exchange for their oil trading rather than their current practise of simply printing US dollars via the printing press :orange:
US govt backed by oil industry trend for no US currency dire effect on US economy
Those seem all of them circumstantial rather than causally connecting to a crime.
I would point out that lack of confidence in the stability of the world is in fact not good for the economy. It is through the economy that people make money (I state that in case you did not know of that).
Yes, I did watch the videos (I've seen them before). I'm not a structural engineer, but I've seen at least two other very credible pieces of evidence that refute just about everything the "9/11 Truth" group presents. Frankly, just their name makes their motives suspect in my mind. They're out looking for a smoking gun - proof of their conspiracy theory. It's a well known fact that if you go looking for specific evidence, you'll very likely find it. If you go into something with an open mind (as the American Society of Structural Engineers did), you'll more likely find the actual facts, not pieces of evidence here and there to support your pre-concieved notions of the facts. The circumstances behind the structural failure of the two towers are pretty much established scientific fact.
If I'm convinced that drinking Coca Cola causes a certain type of rare brain tumor, and that's the evidence I go looking for, I have absolutely no doubt I could find compelling evidence (no matter how little or how tenuous it might really be) to support my theory. I could undoubtedly find "experts" to support me, especially if doing so would make them famous (even in their own minds) and get their faces on TV or YouTube. It's the same thing. Go looking for something with an agenda behind you, and I can guarantee you'll find it. That's what these folks are doing. They've got a conclusion first, then look for "facts" to support it. That's not investigation, that's fabrication. And that's what all of the conspiracy theorists work on. They "know" what "really" happened, so they find "facts" to back up their version of reality.
True scientific inquiry does *not* work the way these folks work. Thank goodness they're not in law enforcement. These are the same types of people who are just sure human caused global climate change can't possibly exist. They've got all kinds of "evidence" to support their theory, it's just that none of it passes scientific muster, and all of it flies in the face of established scientific (peer reviewed) fact.
I benefited from the large amount of rain this June which caused my hops plants to grow more rapidly.
That is circumstance. It does not mean that I caused it to rain more.
Now the argument is that the oil industry is making more numerous profits since the 9/11. First of all lets ask ourselves? Is that part even true. As far as I know the oil industry has been doing fine for some time and it didn't just all the sudden receive a great benefit.
So the theory is that the oil industry benefits. Now what individuals in the oil industry? Who are these people and what do they get out of killing so many people? Is it rational to think that someone with a family would kill 4000 people. Start a war costing countless lives and 4 trillion dollars. Now what does that guy get out of it? What exactly does he get? I mean is he going to be poor if he doesn't blow down the trade center? Whats the motivation? He/she is already rich and powerful.
Ok so now lets look the second part. Even if the oil industry profitted that doesn't show causality of a plot any more than my benefiting from the rain shows a plot on my part to control the weather.
Cheney was chairman and CEO of Halliburton Company from 1995 to 2000.
Halliburton is the world's second largest oilfield services corporation with operations in more than 70 countries. It has hundreds of subsidiaries, affiliates, branches, brands and divisions worldwide and employs over 50,000 people.
In 1998, Halliburton merged with Dresser Industries, which included Kellogg. Prescott Bush was a director of Dresser Industries, which is now part of Halliburton; his son, former president George H. W. Bush, worked for Dresser Industries in several positions from 1948 to 1951
I would point out that lack of confidence in the stability of the world is in fact not good for the economy. It is through the economy that people make money...
During it's first day of trading after the attacks, the market lost over 680 points, the single biggest one day drop in the exchanges history. While the drop only accounted for a little over 7 percent, it is still considered a major event. By the end of that first week back open, the Dow Jones had lost over 1360 points or 14 percent of its value. It would go down as the worst week in market history. The total money losses during that time were estimated to be around 1.2 trillion.
Your having trouble with this concept. No stock prices don't justify a war. blowing down the trade center lowers global stability global instability hurts the stock market
I am having no trouble at all.
War & economic disaster serves certain interest groups.
Economic disaster is a way to consolidate corporate interests via market domination and destroying competitors.
Wall St caused the GFC, with some banks shorting the stock market.
Wall St now is the largest interest group in the Obama govt
It has been reported this also occurred prior to the Great Depression, with certain groups shorting the market
When the Glass Steagles Act was repelled by US govt, this disasterous move allowed the big banks to swallow up the smaller banks.
You seem to be having trouble with these concepts.
Yeah a good economic strategy is to lose 1.4 trillion. So that you can recover it 'anyway'.. Usually when I lose 1000 dollars I just say "oh well I can just recover it next paycheck" sure
I guess I'll put one of these :eek2: for the heck of it because it might substitute for a lack of good argumentation. Maybe I will even put a picture of a chicken or bozo??
Thanks I like that. Remember I have my ongoing battles with the midwesterners beer brewing forum
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I believe there are opportunistic people who are willing to make a buck on anything and don't care about the effects on others. Their actions are despicable, that doesn't mean 'they' (the mysterious and shadow they) coordinated a mass conspiracy to destroy the WTC it just means that 'they' took advantage of a situation for their own personal gain.
I'll go so far as to acknowledge the possibility that 'they' had some knowledge of an attack but stood aside so 'they' could use the chaos and nationalistic fervor in their favor. I don't think thats what happened but I wouldn't be all that surprised to find out it did.
The theory that a group of radical Muslims operating out of cave hideouts in the hills of Afghanistan conspired against the most powerful nation in the world and successfully pulled off one of the most elaborate terrorist attacks in history is, by definition, a "conspiracy theory".
Learning to fly planes and use boxcutters to frighten the passengers into submission isn't that elaborate.
What about flying a Boeing 747 at incredibly low altitude narrowly missing power lines, tree tops and buildings which is something that professional pilots admit they themselves could not do, let alone amateurs. One of the alleged hijackers who crashed the plane into the Pentagon was, according to his flight instructor, one of the worst students he has ever had - yet he pulled off nearly impossible (if not altogether impossible) maneuvers successfully crashing it into it's target.
Oh, by the way, on September 10th 2001 Donald Rumsfeld admitted that 2.3 TRILLION dollars went missing from the military budget. Then, the next day, a plane crashes into the financing department of the Pentagon with incredible precision - hours later conveniently shifting the attention of the public to the Middle East and how long it was going to be before they "serve justice".
Debunking videos prove nothing about the masterminds behind 9/11. 9/11 was used for unrelated invasions of Iraq and Afganistan. The US govt lied about the reasons for these invasions. The US govt was backed heavily by oil industry interests and, itself, was comprised of ex-oil executives, it appears. I have heard, as there is a trend today, that Iraq was behind plans to start an oil exchange where oil trading was not conducted in US dollars. This would have dire effects on the US economy and interests given the US would have to earn foreign exchange for their oil trading rather than their current practise of simply printing US dollars via the printing press :orange:
Unfortunately its still circumstantial... cooking books in pentagon isn't evidence of the governemnt perpetrating the plane crashing into the pentagon!
Unfortunately its still circumstantial... cooking books in pentagon isn't evidence of the governemnt perpetrating the plane crashing into the pentagon!
I didn't intend for it to be conclusive evidence in any way, shape or form. But due to the fact that 9/11 unfolded a day after this announcement was made - which presumably many American citizens would be outraged upon hearing - the outrage quickly shifted to the Middle East.
This doesn't prove that those in the Pentagon are guilty of perpetrating 9/11 - but - you have to admit, it was a remarkably "lucky" ("lucky" for those who were responsible for losing $2.3T, that is, not "lucky" for anyone else) coincidence that Al-Qaeda decided to attack the WTC/Pentagon the following day.
When 3000 people die, other problems tend to pale into insignificance. Apparently this is true because many people are surprised when I mention what happened on September 10th.
Metta,
Guy
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I've heard about waste in military spending forever, $600 for a hammer, $1,000 for a toilet seat. To me thats all this seems to be, they don't say that a lump sum of 2.3T went missing, they were talking about waste. I'm sure a nice portion that was lost to corruption as well but if the administration was funneling that money for some nefarious purpose related to 9/11 I seriously doubt they'd make it public at all.
In the summer of 2001 the news was all about Gary Condit and Chandra Levy and shark attacks were the big thing. So maybe 9/11 was orchestrated by Gary Condit and a secret cabal of hyper intelligent sharks to bury the story of their secret plan to take over the world.
"So maybe 9/11 was orchestrated by Gary Condit and a secret cabal of hyper intelligent sharks to bury the story of their secret plan to take over the world."
In the summer of 2001 the news was all about Gary Condit and Chandra Levy and shark attacks were the big thing. So maybe 9/11 was orchestrated by Gary Condit and a secret cabal of hyper intelligent sharks to bury the story of their secret plan to take over the world.
Sounds about as plausible as "Al Qaeda did it", in my opinion.
In the summer of 2001 the news was all about Gary Condit and Chandra Levy and shark attacks were the big thing. So maybe 9/11 was orchestrated by Gary Condit and a secret cabal of hyper intelligent sharks to bury the story of their secret plan to take over the world.
I am not going to debate you anymore until you give me valuable evidence to support your claim.
I have given you evidence. One example of some hard evidence found which supports the controlled demolition theory is that there was dust found with traces of thermite surrounding ground zero. Unfortunately most of the scrap metal was speedily and conveniently shipped off to China to get rid of the evidence.
I said yesterday that I wanted to ask some questions about the debunking article. Here's my first question:
If the pancaking theory is true, then why do the buildings collapse at (or, at least, very close to) free-fall speed? Why is there virtually no resistance?
Did you ever notice that some people resort to insulting other people, calling them names, even if some of the stuff they are bringing up is very thought-provoking?
Comments
The theory that a group of radical Muslims operating out of cave hideouts in the hills of Afghanistan conspired against the most powerful nation in the world and successfully pulled off one of the most elaborate terrorist attacks in history is, by definition, a "conspiracy theory".
By definition, everyone involved in this discussion could arguably be called a "conspiracy theorist" (including you if you believe the 9/11 Commission Report), rendering the term meaningless. So why don't we put the name-calling aside and have an intelligent discussion?
Metta,
Guy
Show me you evidence supporting your theories. A video claiming a guy said this is not EVIDENCE! The burden of proof is on YOU and not us. I am not going to debate you anymore until you give me valuable evidence to support your claim.
I suggest you watch this and LEARN:
I only watched the first of the architects videos but he went through 10 or so reasons why WTC7 was demolished and from my limited knowledge most of them would be the same as if the building collapsed on itself from structural damage. He also talked about an office fire not being hot enough to melt steel, this is were I tuned out since the tower fires weren't office fires they were jet fuel fires. At that point it seemed apparent to me that he had an agenda and was looking for evidence that supported his already held conclusion instead of accumulating evidence and trying to come to some conclusion.
US govt backed by oil industry
trend for no US currency
dire effect on US economy
Those seem all of them circumstantial rather than causally connecting to a crime.
I would point out that lack of confidence in the stability of the world is in fact not good for the economy. It is through the economy that people make money (I state that in case you did not know of that).
If I'm convinced that drinking Coca Cola causes a certain type of rare brain tumor, and that's the evidence I go looking for, I have absolutely no doubt I could find compelling evidence (no matter how little or how tenuous it might really be) to support my theory. I could undoubtedly find "experts" to support me, especially if doing so would make them famous (even in their own minds) and get their faces on TV or YouTube. It's the same thing. Go looking for something with an agenda behind you, and I can guarantee you'll find it. That's what these folks are doing. They've got a conclusion first, then look for "facts" to support it. That's not investigation, that's fabrication. And that's what all of the conspiracy theorists work on. They "know" what "really" happened, so they find "facts" to back up their version of reality.
True scientific inquiry does *not* work the way these folks work. Thank goodness they're not in law enforcement. These are the same types of people who are just sure human caused global climate change can't possibly exist. They've got all kinds of "evidence" to support their theory, it's just that none of it passes scientific muster, and all of it flies in the face of established scientific (peer reviewed) fact.
That is circumstance. It does not mean that I caused it to rain more.
Now the argument is that the oil industry is making more numerous profits since the 9/11. First of all lets ask ourselves? Is that part even true. As far as I know the oil industry has been doing fine for some time and it didn't just all the sudden receive a great benefit.
So the theory is that the oil industry benefits. Now what individuals in the oil industry? Who are these people and what do they get out of killing so many people? Is it rational to think that someone with a family would kill 4000 people. Start a war costing countless lives and 4 trillion dollars. Now what does that guy get out of it? What exactly does he get? I mean is he going to be poor if he doesn't blow down the trade center? Whats the motivation? He/she is already rich and powerful.
Ok so now lets look the second part. Even if the oil industry profitted that doesn't show causality of a plot any more than my benefiting from the rain shows a plot on my part to control the weather.
As for the oil interests:
Cheney was chairman and CEO of Halliburton Company from 1995 to 2000.
Halliburton is the world's second largest oilfield services corporation with operations in more than 70 countries. It has hundreds of subsidiaries, affiliates, branches, brands and divisions worldwide and employs over 50,000 people.
In 1998, Halliburton merged with Dresser Industries, which included Kellogg. Prescott Bush was a director of Dresser Industries, which is now part of Halliburton; his son, former president George H. W. Bush, worked for Dresser Industries in several positions from 1948 to 1951
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburton
:orange:
When the economy collapsed in michigan it was bad for his business because he was in michigan.
Does that mean that there is a 'curse' on my family line that caused the auto industry to fail in michigan..
Your reasoning is equally foolish.
You misunderstand.
Global instability is NOT good for the economy. Do you think the stock market went up after the world trade center?
Iraq was not connected to 9/11. Yet 9/11 was also used to justify its invasion.
Rise in stock market does not justify a baseless war.
You sound very attached rather than with objective view. :buck:
Self-cherishing :-/
blowing down the trade center lowers global stability
global instability hurts the stock market
NEXT
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/826583
War & economic disaster serves certain interest groups.
Economic disaster is a way to consolidate corporate interests via market domination and destroying competitors.
Wall St caused the GFC, with some banks shorting the stock market.
Wall St now is the largest interest group in the Obama govt
It has been reported this also occurred prior to the Great Depression, with certain groups shorting the market
When the Glass Steagles Act was repelled by US govt, this disasterous move allowed the big banks to swallow up the smaller banks.
You seem to be having trouble with these concepts.
You may believe in conspiracies if you wish
I guess I'll put one of these :eek2: for the heck of it because it might substitute for a lack of good argumentation. Maybe I will even put a picture of a chicken or bozo??
What I am say is it is all circumstantial, including the alleged "terrorists"
But all of the lives killed, wounded & mamed in Iraq is not circumstantial
This is a fact
But all of the lives killed, wounded & mamed in Iraq is not circumstantial"
Agree
It is irrelevant whether the market goes up or down; those in the know can make massive profit either way.
Metta,
Guy
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws."
- Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
Metta,
Guy
I'll go so far as to acknowledge the possibility that 'they' had some knowledge of an attack but stood aside so 'they' could use the chaos and nationalistic fervor in their favor. I don't think thats what happened but I wouldn't be all that surprised to find out it did.
Oh, by the way, on September 10th 2001 Donald Rumsfeld admitted that 2.3 TRILLION dollars went missing from the military budget. Then, the next day, a plane crashes into the financing department of the Pentagon with incredible precision - hours later conveniently shifting the attention of the public to the Middle East and how long it was going to be before they "serve justice".
I don't know...sounds pretty elaborate to me.
Metta,
Guy
Are you saying that the plane was at a low enough altitude to hit a tree top?
"Oh, by the way, on September 10th 2001 Donald Rumsfeld admitted that 2.3 TRILLION dollars went missing from the military budget."
Citation please.
Ok this is of interest I shut off pandora to watch it.
This doesn't prove that those in the Pentagon are guilty of perpetrating 9/11 - but - you have to admit, it was a remarkably "lucky" ("lucky" for those who were responsible for losing $2.3T, that is, not "lucky" for anyone else) coincidence that Al-Qaeda decided to attack the WTC/Pentagon the following day.
When 3000 people die, other problems tend to pale into insignificance. Apparently this is true because many people are surprised when I mention what happened on September 10th.
Metta,
Guy
In the summer of 2001 the news was all about Gary Condit and Chandra Levy and shark attacks were the big thing. So maybe 9/11 was orchestrated by Gary Condit and a secret cabal of hyper intelligent sharks to bury the story of their secret plan to take over the world.
Excellent point. :coffee:
Metta,
Guy
I said yesterday that I wanted to ask some questions about the debunking article. Here's my first question:
If the pancaking theory is true, then why do the buildings collapse at (or, at least, very close to) free-fall speed? Why is there virtually no resistance?
Metta,
Guy
No signal