Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Consciousness without surface (outside space and time)
Consciousness without surface (viññanam anidassanam):
This term appears to be related to the following image from SN 12.64:
Personally, I doubt the Buddha ever taught viññanam anidassanam.
Viññanam anidassanam is found in two anti-Brahmanical suttas and was probably composed after the Buddha's passing.
SN 12.64 focuses on non-attachment. It is the whole mind, just not consciousness, which does not 'land' anywhere. Why does it not land? Because the mind (citta) is non-attached.
The later Buddhists focused more on consciousness rather than the citta, whereas the Buddha for the most part described liberation of the citta (mind-heart).
The later focused more on consciousness because they were looking for something to ascribe rebirth to whereas the Buddha never said anything was "reborn", apart from the results of action
This consciousness thus differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. And, as SN 35.23 notes, the word "all" in the Buddha's teaching covers only the six sense media, which is another reason for not including this consciousness under the aggregates. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud I.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud VIII.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time.
Oh dear. Thanissaro has really lost the plot here.
The Buddha did not describe a consciousness outside of the sense media.
In fact, Thanissaro completely contradicts himself with his dodgy translations because, in the Pali, what he translates as "dimension" is "ayatana", which is the actual term used for the sense spheres.
Nibbana is an 'ayatana", namely, an object of the mind, that is, a sense object of mind consciousness (mano vinnana).
Thanissaro has got it all wrong when he translated 'objects' as 'ideas' when translating the mind ayatana as 'intellect', 'intellect consciousness' and 'ideas'
For example, a feeling (vedana) is not an "idea" yet it is known/sensed/experienced by mind consciousness
The pure urge of craving/lust is not an "idea". the mood of fear is not an "idea"
the proper translation is mind, mind consciousness and mind-objects
mano vinnana is the knowing mind. mano = knowing (and not 'the intellect')
As for citta (intellect), mano (mind) and vinnana (consciousness), the commentarial tradition of Theravada considers them to be synonymous based upon this passage from SN 12.61:
They are not synonymous, which is why the commentarial tradition of Theravada is obviously wrong. Each three serve a different function, which is why each three has a different name.
"Sick", "ill" and "unwell" are synonymous. Citta, mano & vinnana are not synonymous.
In SN 12.61, they simply share the same transience, but differ in function.
To assert they are synonymous slanders the Tathagata.
“Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ, na viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ, na ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ, na nevasaññā- nāsaññāyatanaṃ, nāyaṃ loko, na paraloko, na ubho candimasūriyā. Tatrāpāhaṃ, bhikkhave, neva āgatiṃ vadāmi, na gatiṃ, na ṭhitiṃ, na cutiṃ, na upapattiṃ; appatiṭṭhaṃ, appavattaṃ, anārammaṇamevetaṃ. Esevanto dukkhassā”ti. (Udāna v 71)
“Monks! There is that faculty (āyatana) that has no elements of earth, water, fire, and air. It is neither the realm of Infinity of Space, nor the realm of Infinity of Consciousness, nor the realm of Nothingness, nor the realm of Neither Perception nor Non-perception. It is neither this world nor other worlds. No moon nor sun shines there. Here, monks, I say there is no going or coming. It has no foothold or residence. It is deathless, unborn, and unformed. It has no abode. Nothing ever occurs there. It has no sense-objects. It is the end of suffering.”
To claim that they are “mere synonyms” is, very crudely speaking, rather like claiming that the words “steam”, “liquid”, and “ice” are all “mere synonyms”. To be sure, they may all refer to forms of “water”; but it would be plainly and simply wrong to claim that they are therefore merely “synonymous”.
Not even that. They cannot even be compared to “steam”, “liquid” and “ice”.
Water becomes ice; ice becomes water; water becomes steam; steam becomes ice.
But citta cannot become vinanna. Citta cannot facilitate seeing, hearing, smelling, touching & knowing.
Citta and vinnana are miles apart.
That is why the Satipatthana Sutta instructs contemplating (anupassi) the citta.
Consciousness & mano contemplate the citta. The citta possesses and creates greed, hatred, delusion, love, etc.
Consciousness cannot generate greed, hatred, etc
Consciousness is just sense awareness
Ice transforms into water; steam transforms into ice; but citta cannot transform into vinnana and vinnana cannot transform into citta.
When you have been quoting my posts, you are posting them like they are words I said. I'm just offering different quotes from other translators. My personal opinion coincides very well with what you have stated thus far. As I said in a much earlier post, "I am not sure If I agree with the quote I provided in the OP." It's just food for thought brought on by previous discussion.
In my experience (that is my personal reflection and contemplation and my studies) the Citta, Manas, and Vinnana are certainly not synonomous. They are used in different contexts to refer to entirely different processes of the mind.
As for citta (intellect), mano (mind) and vinnana (consciousness), the commentarial tradition of Theravada considers them to be synonymous based upon this passage from SN 12.61:
They are not synonymous, which is why the commentarial tradition of Theravada is obviously wrong. Each three serve a different function, which is why each three has a different name.
"Sick", "ill" and "unwell" are synonymous. Citta, mano & vinnana are not synonymous.
In SN 12.61, they simply share the same transience, but differ in function.
I agree, which is why I said, "I'm more inclined to agree with Nizamis' assessment than the commentarial tradition's suggestion that they're synonymous; although I do think that citta, mano and vinnana are more alike in character than, say, steam, liquid and ice.
In fact, Thanissaro completely contradicts himself with his dodgy translations because, in the Pali, what he translates as "dimension" is "ayatana", which is the actual term used for the sense spheres.
Nibbana is an 'ayatana", namely, an object of the mind, that is, a sense object of mind consciousness (mano vinnana).
Thanissaro has got it all wrong when he translated 'objects' as 'ideas' when translating the mind ayatana as 'intellect', 'intellect consciousness' and 'ideas'
For example, a feeling (vedana) is not an "idea" yet it is known/sensed/experienced by mind consciousness
The pure urge of craving/lust is not an "idea". the mood of fear is not an "idea"
the proper translation is mind, mind consciousness and mind-objects
mano vinnana is the knowing mind. mano = knowing (and not 'the intellect')
Nibbana is a mind object
I'm inclined to agree. This, at least, seems consistent with the third definition of ayatana in the Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary. Maybe Thanissaro was utilizing the first definition (i.e., stretch, extent, reach, compass, region; sphere, locus, place, spot; position, occasion) in his translation Ud 8.1 for some reason?
I think its dangerous to say which lineages are buddhist and which not. It leads to sectarian fighting and disharmony.
To pat each others backs is political harmony, it doesn't lead to Buddhahood. Debate and forced disharmony in order to get to the nitty gritty level of understanding is part of the practice of the Gelupa tradition, in order to test a persons mind state in the face of opposition as well to test a persons level of insight into the dharma of the Buddha.
I think 'debate' can rapidly turn into hurt feelings or junior high or even into a cross between kindergarten and an outhouse should it get that far :buck:
I thoroughly agree with Vajraheart on the value of the practice of the Gelupa tradition. I also think the Gelupa tradition is infinitely more kind and gentle than I! I would be inclined to hand all practitioner debaters an overtired screaming colicky baby in desperate need of a diaper change... to observe their practice in action!
Thanks @Vajraheart, for posting Nagarjuna's Mahamudra Vision Homage to Manjusrikumarabhuta. It is so beautiful, so observable, so true, and so well stated. Sigh. Yes, indeed.....
19. "When the wheel of mind ceases to turn..."
one will have finally, (finally!!) learned! In the meantime, that mountain of subjects left to study certainly looks a lot like Everest. I had better get back to it.
Yeah I think Vajraheart made a good point about leading to buddhahood. My point I feel was also valid in that when the environment becomes too difficult to bear we become expelled from it rather than learning the lesson. If the teaching were presented with purity of motivation we would not be expelled. What expels us is the motivations reactive of anger, jealous, greed, pride, ignorance, and striving.
@aura , my parents already did that with my little brother when I was 13 and 14, as well as older. Having to take care of him at such an age when all I wanted to do was go out and skateboard, hang out with friends, whatever, was very difficult indeed!
@Vajraheart: ah yes, good practice! Hard practice! And at a young age... good for you!
Speaking of studying, might you happen to have any guesses for where to start looking through scriptures to find a description of what the rainbow body actually looks like beyond just the description "rainbow body"? I was wondering if it is all the colors that merge into the white light, or if it is perhaps all the colors that merge into the gold light...and a friend was saying no no no, that it is the golden violet/purple light, but she didn't give a reference. Any guesses on where to start looking would be appreciated as I am presently contemplating shoveling the Sahara with a spoon here.... Thanks!
@Vajraheart: ah yes, good practice! Hard practice! And at a young age... good for you!
Speaking of studying, might you happen to have any guesses for where to start looking through scriptures to find a description of what the rainbow body actually looks like beyond just the description "rainbow body"? I was wondering if it is all the colors that merge into the white light, or if it is perhaps all the colors that merge into the gold light...and a friend was saying no no no, that it is the golden violet/purple light, but she didn't give a reference. Any guesses on where to start looking would be appreciated as I am presently contemplating shoveling the Sahara with a spoon here.... Thanks!
"Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" I think it's clear light though of emptiness and awareness the clear luminosity.
The order goes pure space is signified by the lapis lazuli blue then air is green water is white fire is red earth is gold
I haven't actually read my Heart Drops book yet. But, this is how we do the practice in my dzogchen transmission starting with Ah. You've gotta get transmission though and really it has to be shown to you through lineage empowerment, otherwise it won't really work, unless you really do have the good merits from previous lives, which if you do generally you find a teacher to teach it to you in this lifetime due to that merit.
To go at this stuff alone is not really recommended.
Comments
Imagine you're like, "Oh... I've realized emptiness." You have this experience of realizing emptiness, now empty that too.
.....
This might be obvious to plenty, but not to others.
yeah I'm willing to switch over.. how about I create a post summarizing the posts on emptiness?
Viññanam anidassanam is found in two anti-Brahmanical suttas and was probably composed after the Buddha's passing.
SN 12.64 focuses on non-attachment. It is the whole mind, just not consciousness, which does not 'land' anywhere. Why does it not land? Because the mind (citta) is non-attached.
The later Buddhists focused more on consciousness rather than the citta, whereas the Buddha for the most part described liberation of the citta (mind-heart).
The later focused more on consciousness because they were looking for something to ascribe rebirth to whereas the Buddha never said anything was "reborn", apart from the results of action
The Buddha did not describe a consciousness outside of the sense media.
In fact, Thanissaro completely contradicts himself with his dodgy translations because, in the Pali, what he translates as "dimension" is "ayatana", which is the actual term used for the sense spheres.
Nibbana is an 'ayatana", namely, an object of the mind, that is, a sense object of mind consciousness (mano vinnana).
Thanissaro has got it all wrong when he translated 'objects' as 'ideas' when translating the mind ayatana as 'intellect', 'intellect consciousness' and 'ideas'
For example, a feeling (vedana) is not an "idea" yet it is known/sensed/experienced by mind consciousness
The pure urge of craving/lust is not an "idea". the mood of fear is not an "idea"
the proper translation is mind, mind consciousness and mind-objects
mano vinnana is the knowing mind. mano = knowing (and not 'the intellect')
Nibbana is a mind object
:coffee:
"Sick", "ill" and "unwell" are synonymous. Citta, mano & vinnana are not synonymous.
In SN 12.61, they simply share the same transience, but differ in function.
To assert they are synonymous slanders the Tathagata.
Water becomes ice; ice becomes water; water becomes steam; steam becomes ice.
But citta cannot become vinanna. Citta cannot facilitate seeing, hearing, smelling, touching & knowing.
Citta and vinnana are miles apart.
That is why the Satipatthana Sutta instructs contemplating (anupassi) the citta.
Consciousness & mano contemplate the citta. The citta possesses and creates greed, hatred, delusion, love, etc.
Consciousness cannot generate greed, hatred, etc
Consciousness is just sense awareness
Ice transforms into water; steam transforms into ice; but citta cannot transform into vinnana and vinnana cannot transform into citta.
:wtf:
Spiny
In my experience (that is my personal reflection and contemplation and my studies) the Citta, Manas, and Vinnana are certainly not synonomous. They are used in different contexts to refer to entirely different processes of the mind.
to observe their practice in action!
Thanks @Vajraheart, for posting Nagarjuna's Mahamudra Vision Homage to Manjusrikumarabhuta.
It is so beautiful, so observable, so true, and so well stated. Sigh.
Yes, indeed.....
19. "When the wheel of mind ceases to turn..."
one will have finally, (finally!!) learned!
In the meantime, that mountain of subjects left to study
certainly looks a lot like Everest.
I had better get back to it.
@aura , my parents already did that with my little brother when I was 13 and 14, as well as older. Having to take care of him at such an age when all I wanted to do was go out and skateboard, hang out with friends, whatever, was very difficult indeed!
Speaking of studying, might you happen to have any guesses for where to start looking through scriptures to find a description of what the rainbow body actually looks like beyond just the description "rainbow body"? I was wondering if it is all the colors that merge into the white light, or if it is perhaps all the colors that merge into the gold light...and a friend was saying no no no, that it is the golden violet/purple light, but she didn't give a reference.
Any guesses on where to start looking would be appreciated as I am presently contemplating shoveling the Sahara with a spoon here.... Thanks!
"Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" I think it's clear light though of emptiness and awareness the clear luminosity.
The order goes pure space is signified by the lapis lazuli blue
then air is green
water is white
fire is red
earth is gold
I haven't actually read my Heart Drops book yet. But, this is how we do the practice in my dzogchen transmission starting with Ah. You've gotta get transmission though and really it has to be shown to you through lineage empowerment, otherwise it won't really work, unless you really do have the good merits from previous lives, which if you do generally you find a teacher to teach it to you in this lifetime due to that merit.
To go at this stuff alone is not really recommended.
Good luck!
I had never seen the gold light before... yes, it was clear, gold, light.
Thank you very much!