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Why did no one tell me about chakra's? What else am I missing?
Actually Tantra was no part of Buddhism and is just a later adoption. For sure it is older. I think its important to divide practice which leads maybe to Buddha Dharma and practice that is made when actually reached Buddha Dharma. The last is called simply the noble Eightfold Path. Dharmachakra. :wave:
Where do you derive the idea that Tantra was no part of Buddhism when anthropological evidence states otherwise?
Tantra became part of every major school of Indian thought by the 3rd century AD. Buddhas will always evolve Buddhism according to the needs of the masses. The Buddha, as in Shakyamuni, wasn't even the first Buddha... according to Mahayana.
Maybe the same resource as you: "Tantra became part of every major school..."
"...according to the needs of the masses", is maybe an idea of somebody after Buddha, but I dont think his own. As well he was quite aware that his teachings are not understandable by the mass.
"The Buddha, as in Shakyamuni, wasn't even the first Buddha... according to Mahayana.", so was it told by the Buddha himself, and every school is normally aware of it. He did not quote him self as an inventor but as somebody who is able to retell what every liberated being would know but sometimes not be able to teach. :wave:
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I have to say @Hanzze, how much your English has improved since you joined us but a short time ago. Earlier this month, in fact.... Your early posts clearly show a poor command of English, yet here you are, speaking English as fluently (almost) as anyone else here.
Wow...
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
For example: A post earlier this month:
"Well pure land I guess is easy for many to except. Let me say, I am talking about Dhamma. There is not one asian, who do not like to go west haha and not one western, who likes to go more western and end up in the so called east :-)
Go west never die and grow, but Dhamma-understanding... Did you know that Afghanistan was a Buddhist country. So much great teaching and understanding that one time there nearly haven't be people left. :-)
Beware, the good will disappear!"
And today, just days later, we had this:
"I guess the problem is that many misunderstand folkloric tradition and adoption of Dharma elements into existing believe systems it self as Vajrayana. We always need to wash the cultural defilement out first. But actually mostly we grasp on that what is needed to wash out, we love to identify our self's."
Maybe the same resource as you: "Tantra became part of every major school..."
"...according to the needs of the masses", is maybe an idea of somebody after Buddha, but I dont think his own. As well he was quite aware that his teachings are not understandable by the mass.
"The Buddha, as in Shakyamuni, wasn't even the first Buddha... according to Mahayana.", so was it told by the Buddha himself, and every school is normally aware of it. He did not quote him self as an inventor but as somebody who is able to retell what every liberated being would know but sometimes not be able to teach. :wave:
Sure, that also gives space to the idea that Tantra in Buddhism pre-existed the Buddhas teaching of Buddhisms basics. Also, it gives space to the idea that Tantra was possibly taught by the Buddha to various rare adepts within a different mind space than the popularly accepted physical paradigm.
Maybe the same resource as you: "Tantra became part of every major school..."
"...according to the needs of the masses", is maybe an idea of somebody after Buddha, but I dont think his own. As well he was quite aware that his teachings are not understandable by the mass.
"The Buddha, as in Shakyamuni, wasn't even the first Buddha... according to Mahayana.", so was it told by the Buddha himself, and every school is normally aware of it. He did not quote him self as an inventor but as somebody who is able to retell what every liberated being would know but sometimes not be able to teach. :wave:
Sure, that also gives space to the idea that Tantra in Buddhism pre-existed the Buddhas teaching of Buddhisms basics. Also, it gives space to the idea that Tantra was possibly taught by the Buddha to various rare adepts within a different mind space than the popularly accepted physical paradigm.
I guess there is endless space for fairy tale, as much space as there is in universe. Fore sure its not mad to find one time to the noble eightfold path. Cleaning the storage rack mindfully could also lead to this. So let it be a secret for the special one, as it is very special. *smile* Some not so special could easily misunderstand it, thinking cleaning the racks leads to peace.
Maybe the same resource as you: "Tantra became part of every major school..."
"...according to the needs of the masses", is maybe an idea of somebody after Buddha, but I dont think his own. As well he was quite aware that his teachings are not understandable by the mass.
"The Buddha, as in Shakyamuni, wasn't even the first Buddha... according to Mahayana.", so was it told by the Buddha himself, and every school is normally aware of it. He did not quote him self as an inventor but as somebody who is able to retell what every liberated being would know but sometimes not be able to teach. :wave:
Sure, that also gives space to the idea that Tantra in Buddhism pre-existed the Buddhas teaching of Buddhisms basics. Also, it gives space to the idea that Tantra was possibly taught by the Buddha to various rare adepts within a different mind space than the popularly accepted physical paradigm.
I guess there is endless space for fairy tale, as much space as there is in universe. Fore sure its not mad to find one time to the noble eightfold path. Cleaning the storage rack mindfully could also lead to this. So let it be a secret for the special one, as it is very special. *smile* Some not so special could easily misunderstand it, thinking cleaning the racks leads to peace.
This is why most aren't ready for the efficiency of Vajrayana.
Maybe the same resource as you: "Tantra became part of every major school..."
"...according to the needs of the masses", is maybe an idea of somebody after Buddha, but I dont think his own. As well he was quite aware that his teachings are not understandable by the mass.
"The Buddha, as in Shakyamuni, wasn't even the first Buddha... according to Mahayana.", so was it told by the Buddha himself, and every school is normally aware of it. He did not quote him self as an inventor but as somebody who is able to retell what every liberated being would know but sometimes not be able to teach. :wave:
Sure, that also gives space to the idea that Tantra in Buddhism pre-existed the Buddhas teaching of Buddhisms basics. Also, it gives space to the idea that Tantra was possibly taught by the Buddha to various rare adepts within a different mind space than the popularly accepted physical paradigm.
I guess there is endless space for fairy tale, as much space as there is in universe. Fore sure its not mad to find one time to the noble eightfold path. Cleaning the storage rack mindfully could also lead to this. So let it be a secret for the special one, as it is very special. *smile* Some not so special could easily misunderstand it, thinking cleaning the racks leads to peace.
This is why most aren't ready for the efficiency of Vajrayana.
It's good to have experts. Imagine if there would be more that one captain on the sinking ship. They would die all together waiting till the end. :wave:
It's good to have experts. Imagine if there would be more that one captain on the sinking ship. They would die all together waiting till the end. :wave:
And the wheel goes on...
"You first!" "No, you!" Thinking: "I am the one!"
Ok, I don't see how this pertains to anything I've said, considering that anyone who's experienced emptiness is humbler than a worm digging through dirt.
As it's said, "A person ready to serve is fit to lead." If there are many on a ship as such realized to that degree, they would all agree to get off at the same time according to their personal capacity, helping each other along the way through example.
I know that many wait on for the next Buddha. But the Buddha taught not to do so.
Simply attachment and wrong view. If one is really form that size he would not invite others if there is a easier way. That is just continue harming for the sake of doing good. What an excuse. :wave:
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
The vast majority of those who practice Dharma do so with no reference to the chakras at all. Even a majority of Vajra students never give them a second thought.
I have to say @Hanzze, how much your English has improved since you joined us but a short time ago. Earlier this month, in fact.... Your early posts clearly show a poor command of English, yet here you are, speaking English as fluently (almost) as anyone else here.
I noticed the same thing. Maybe he's taking evening classes.
I just put in "chakras" in a google search and there are 9,670,000 hits. Somebody is paying attention to them.
They've become trendy.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Hanzze you are incorrect (buddhist) yoga aims to balance the 5 indiryas and thus develope mindfulness (smirti), energy, concentration, prajna (wisdom), and sradda (taking the teachings home - faith).
The vast majority of those who practice Dharma do so with no reference to the chakras at all. Even a majority of Vajra students never give them a second thought.
Hanzze you are incorrect (buddhist) yoga aims to balance the 5 indiryas and thus develope mindfulness (smirti), energy, concentration, prajna (wisdom), and sradda (taking the teachings home - faith).
Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.
Yoga is a compensation of "not right yet" livelihood nothing else *smile* One would not need such things if he turns to virtue.
Yoga is a compensation of "not right yet" livelihood nothing else *smile* One would not need such things if he turns to virtue.
Where have I read a post very similar to this? :scratch: Someone was wont to say that if the students observe virtue, there's no need for ethics rules for the teacher. Who was it who said that...?? :scratch:
Yoga is a compensation of "not right yet" livelihood nothing else *smile* One would not need such things if he turns to virtue.
Where have I read a post very similar to this? :scratch: Someone was wont to say that if the students observe virtue, there's no need for ethics rules for the teacher. Who was it who said that...?? :scratch:
Maybe there was written that its important to understand them rather to follow words and rites without understanding. *smile*
Buddhism Connect to the rescue! (a free weekly/biweekly email of teacher/student)
Summary: Lama Shenpen explains how students must take responsibility for themselves if they adopt special practices that are outside what is normally taught in her Sangha. They can have unforeseen consequences.
A student asks:
Some time ago I decided I would like to learn the practice of inner heat. Firstly because I often feel cold, especially my hands, and I thought it would help me meditate more easily when my body feels cold, and give me more energy. Secondly, I have started practising yoga again and it suddenly felt quite logical to go from yoga to Tantra. I had heard that many monks and other practitioners in Tibetan Buddhism do the practice of inner heat, and that it is "nothing special". However, after reading a book about it, it appears that this is very special indeed, and seems to be the fastest way to achieve enlightenment! So I thought, well, if it is that efficient, there have to be side effects or there must be other reasons not to do it. Or else, everybody would be doing it, wouldn’t they?
Lama Shenpen replies:
Good thinking. In general the practices that are said to be the fastest means to achieve enlightenment depend on the disciple having an exceptionally good samaya with their teacher. Generally speaking success in Dharma depends mainly on the purity of one’s intention and vision. Techniques can be harnessed by yogins under the right circumstances to speed up some of the changes. However they might go wrong and cause distraction and disturbance and even worse can yield powers that increase the egocentricity of the practitioner instead of undercutting it. Well this can happen with any so called Dharma practice but some practices can do so more powerfully than others.
Student:
I have been trying out a light (less powerful) version for a few weeks, and it does seem to deepen my meditation. I also did various other practices like prostrations to prevent me from getting blasé about being a "special practitioner".
And if I practice it, should I tell other students about it or is there a danger that they get distracted from their main practice? I also wonder if I might get distracted from my main practice?
Lama Shenpen:
Well, the thing is that I don‘t know what this light practice is and I am not suggesting you do it. So you do it at your own risk so to speak. I take responsibility for what I teach and for the advice I give. I cannot really advise you on this one. In general the connection between body and mind is quite delicate and doing yogic exercises that affect that balance need to be carefully supervised. A lot of the time if not most of the time nothing much happens and the student simply experiences perhaps a better sense of shamata – at least up to a point. I know that in the West these days light versions of the six yogas are being taught without transmission or tantric empowerment and without supervision. I cannot answer for any of this. How could I? I do not know what is being taught and how the student is going to practice it and how the student is going to supervised.
Student:
I would really appreciate your opinion on this. I feel I should not be doing practices "outside the curriculum" without asking you first.
Lama Shenpen:
That is wise.
**********
Dharma: Truth or reality.
Samaya: Bond, as between teacher and students, or among students; connection, promise, commitment.
Shamata: Any meditation technique that leads to sustained peace and calm; unwavering concentration.
Tantra: Texts dealing with meditation techniques and magic.
Inner Heat practices shouldn't be undertaken so casually, IMO. If one is unsufficiently prepared (like most of us), it can be dangerous. Though the student seems to be approaching it cautiously, doing what he/she says is a "light" practice.
In case anyone's wondering, Inner Heat is about raising the Kundalini through the chakra system, so it does relate to the OP, tangentially. Maybe this comes under the "What else am I missing?" part of the OP. <--- Hanzze
"Summary: Lama Shenpen explains how students must take responsibility for themselves if they adopt special practices that are outside what is normally taught in her Sangha. They can have unforeseen consequences."
for sure it would have heavy consequences on the livelihood of the teacher. Think about it. I guess its always good and worthy to crosscheck things. *smile*
There is nothing special in practicing the noble eightfold path. But some might do not like to have their chicken fly.
Bottled Water, Spring Water
It's like putting water in a bottle and giving it to someone to drink. Once he's finished drinking it, he'll have to come back and ask for more — for the water isn't water in a spring. It's water in a bottle. But if you show the spring to the person and tell him to get water there, he can sit there and keep on drinking water and won't ask you for any more, for the water never runs out.
It's the same when we see inconstancy, stress, and not-self. It goes deep, for we really know, we know all the way in. Ordinary knowledge doesn't know all the way in. If we know all the way in, it never grows stale. Whatever arises, we know it correctly — and things disband. We know correctly without stop.
Special things might need special treatment, but the eightfold path is not special and its the way to liberation. So what should be the reason why somebody would teach something special beside it?
Economic beside the economic of Dana needs attachment, so maybe its just special, because its a special kind (different to the way taught of the Buddha) of economy.
Once knowing the spring, there could be no more business with bottles. *smile*
It don't must to be like that, but we need to be sure if there are not some strings and those strings causes the way of teaching.
I still don't know what you are talking about. Vaguely you are saying that yogic experience is not part of the eightfold path. I would disagree because the yogic experience includes all 8 folds. Right in the present it is working with the mind: concentration, mindfulness/smirti, right effort. Thus you are setting up a false dichotomy between yogic and the eightfold path.
Water is water. When you are in Europe it is in bottles with bubbles. When you are a dog it is in a bowl. Etc..
Well I know that less people have ever seen a spring, even are used to get there water by them self. *smile*
Vaguely I need to thinks so, that yoga has nothing to do with the eightfold path, but for sure it can lead also to it if it is taught with the right intention to lead people to it. Vaguely.
Maybe it has also to do with the use of the word yogi. When we speak about Dharma and refer to meditating people we use the word Yogi. The word has its origin from somebody who is practicing Yoga, but that is the Hindu part. For sure there is a lot of mix.
"The word is also often used in the Buddhist context to describe Buddhist monks or a householder devoted to meditation."
You aldready know. By yogic I mean observing your direct experience. Very simple. Rather than 'meditative hypochondria' like the thread I started in arts and writing.
In case anyone's wondering, Inner Heat is about raising the Kundalini through the chakra system, so it does relate to the OP, tangentially. Maybe this comes under the "What else am I missing?" part of the OP. <--- Hanzze</p>
Buddhism doesn't call it kundalini because we experience the energy differently. Thus, we are not trying to raise kundalini through the chakras, we are trying to subtlify awareness and empty the chakras of seeds of bondage, or burn them through heat and bliss, as well as insight and wisdom.
Buddhist tantra doesn't really experience kundalini sickness because we treat the chakras differently.
Kundalini is a monistic and eternalistic concept, so this would not be in conjunction with Buddhist cosmology.
The truth is in the details. There are some Buddhist scholars that like to think they are the same, but they are not... here's a brief article.
"In Buddhism the prana and shakti energy moving through the body are called the winds. Buddhist teachings do not focus on manipulating the kundalini shakti and they are not as focused on the unchanging aspect of the chakras, and their objective content ie. the fixed seed syllables and their corresponding bija mantras and gods and goddesses, which one finds in the Hindu Yoga system. The Buddhist system is more focused on the functions of the energy centers and that which flows through them."ie. , with the transformation of the cosmic or nature-energies into spiritual potentialities." In Buddhism the "seed mantras or primordial sounds" are associated with the continuous flow of energies and their interactions. The Buddha in his great wisdom taught his students to focus on, and work with the "prajna", the wisdom of the heart, because the wisdom of non-dual awareness tempers and brings harmony to the power of the kundalini shakti.
I have found that traditional Tibetan Buddhist monks do not have kundalini related problems and yet the energy is actively moving up the central channel. The Buddhist approach works safely and very effectively to purify the latent unconscious forces, associated with the different chakras. When these latent energies, the causes of the blockages and resistance are brought into consciousness and released into the light of awareness, the winds (shakti) will naturally, safely enter the central channel, and rise up the sushumna without the need for willful manipulation. The webs between the chakras dissipate in a natural way and this allows for illumination of the different levels of consciousness associated with the chakras.
One of the beginning practices in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is called shinay or tranquility meditation and it helps us train the mind to become more focused, and calm so we can experience true tranquility and openness of the mind. This makes the mind a more effective tool for the next level of meditation called lhaktong or insight meditation. Insight meditation involves acknowledging and uprooting the neurotic patterns and repressed emotions which cloud our true nature, allowing us to rest in the union of clarity and absolute awareness. There are many other Buddhist practices for purification and the development of greater love, compassion, and wisdom.
The traditional Buddhist approach works safely, efficiently and effectively to dispel the neurotic patterns, the illusions, the latent unconscious forces that create resistance to the flow of the kundalini shakti in the sushumna and the prana in the chakras and meridians. One learns very effective practical information and tools for accepting the physical, emotional and mental experiences, our fears and anxieties, as they arise and how to stop reacting to them. This brings detachment and freedom from our "stuff" and interestingly enough the problem with kundalini subsides. When you increase your understanding and awareness of the true cause of suffering, and then take appropriate, skillful action, you will gradually become free of illusion, the causal origin or source of suffering, and also free of your kundalini related symptoms.
Buddhism in America is changing, just as it has adapted to every country to which it has spread. American Buddhist practitioners come from many diverse cultural, religious, spiritual and non-spiritual backgrounds. We have psychological and emotional problems unique to our society. When the Dalai Lama first heard about how many people in America suffer from low or no self esteem he was very surprised, apparently this was not a problem in Tibetan culture. A growing number of American practitioners, who have already been involved with Kundalini Yoga Tantric practices or New Age approaches to working with the subtle energies, are moving into the Tibetan Buddhist tradition with kundalini related problems. The highly trained and traditional Tibetan Tantric masters may have little or no personal experience with the many kundalini associated problems, that have manifested for American practitioners. However, I have found that, from my personal kundalini experience and my experience from working with "kundalini sufferers," that the basic teachings of the Buddha are still one of the most effective ways for working with kundalini aggravated suffering. One does not have to be a Buddhist to benefit from the Buddha's teachings."
So the adoption of has to do with people effected by this confusing to come back to earth. Why send people on such a journey when there have not such confusion and wrong views now? *smile*
Isn't it nonsense to let people make extra turn? It would be better to tantrisice some modern worldviews.
There is quite a bit of difference between discernment and JUDGEMENT. The first considers what others say as important input in a conversation and then the person talks WITH the other person. JUDGEMENT does not listen to the other person, and responds with a set, inflexible teaching aspect to the other person. The first is a sign of maturity, the second is a sign of immaturity ( insecurity ). No one likes to be preached at, no matter how sure the preacher is about their position. No one knows for sure if Chakras are real or not, but some people will try to convince you one way or another. Everything does not need scientific validation to be valuable.
@Vajraheart I use the term "kundalini" as a shorthand. Vajrayana doesn't call it that, but it's working with the same thing. "Burn [the chakras] through heat and bliss", that's what others would call raising the kundalini. Anyway, I didn't intend to get into a semantic issue, I was just explaining to any mod or readers who saw the direction the posts were going in, that we are still on-topic.
In case anyone's wondering, Inner Heat is about raising the Kundalini through the chakra system, so it does relate to the OP, tangentially. Maybe this comes under the "What else am I missing?" part of the OP. <--- Hanzze</p>
Buddhist tantra doesn't really experience kundalini sickness because we treat the chakras differently.
Be this as it may, someone attempting to practice this without a guide and proper preparation could be at risk. I think it's one of those "don't try this at home, kids" kind of things. We're in agreement that preparation stages are necessary.
Kundalini is a monistic and eternalistic concept, so this would not be in conjunction with Buddhist cosmology.
And yet, it does come up in the literature on occasion, such as in your quotes below. It's so clear from the discription that Kundalini is what is being discussed. Call it what you like, or whatever is more appropriate to Buddhism (Tibetan lamas do use the term "Kunda"), my comments were directed at the uninitiated.
I have found that traditional Tibetan Buddhist monks do not have kundalini related problems and yet the energy is actively moving up the central channel. The Buddhist approach works safely and very effectively to purify the latent unconscious forces, associated with the different chakras. When these latent energies, the causes of the blockages and resistance are brought into consciousness and released into the light of awareness, the winds (shakti) will naturally, safely enter the central channel, and rise up the sushumna without the need for willful manipulation. The webs between the chakras dissipate in a natural way and this allows for illumination of the different levels of consciousness associated with the chakras.
The traditional Buddhist approach works safely, efficiently and effectively to dispel the neurotic patterns, the illusions, the latent unconscious forces that create resistance to the flow of the kundalini shakti in the sushumna and the prana in the chakras and meridians.
It works safely & effectively if one works with a teacher .
My attempt to prevent the thread from bogging down into a lengthy discussion of Kundalini/Inner Fire, etc. failed miserably. Oh well. I'll leave it up to the OP and the mods. *shrug* :-/
Thanks for the article, by the way. And, even more off-topic, I've found that some Tibetans do have low self-esteem and serious emotional problems. That's why the tradition constantly talks about eliminating hate and jealousy. Emotional issues manifest differently for Westerners than for Tibetans, in my observation.
Inching back toward the OP: @Vajraheart I think it might be splitting hairs to say tantra developed in Buuddhism first. The roots of tantra go way way back before Buddhism developed, back to Goddess worship, back to the Neolithic, some experts say. So at what stage in its develeopment do we label it "Tantra"? You may be reading different scholars on the subject than I am. Ronald Davidson says tantric influences came into Buddhism in India's medieval times. N. Bhattacharyya explains the development of tantra from ancient roots. I'd be interested in checking out your reading list.
In any case, it's here to stay in Buddhism, and it sounds by your description, people are getting a lot out of it, good, positive change. As long as they handle tantra responsibly, that's the kicker. Not everyone does, and not everyone has the same motives for practicing it.
Question: did the chakra "science" exist apart from tantra, or is it exclusively a tantric system of knowledge?
@Dakini, I believe chakras refer to a way to look at our actual experience, our minds and bodies. We have had that experience since the first humans or possibly, probably apes. But the question is what form was used to understand and express that experience. I imagine that it is a mixture of art and science. And that it is ancient. As I said I am sure some of shakyamuni's students had experience with this. I am sure they asked questions of buddha... so again where does an answer to a question end and an oral teaching tradition begin?
Remember Shakyamuni buddha was not an author of texts.
I think you're right, Jeffrey: I suspect that chakras are part of an ancient healing system, probably part of the shamanic tradition, as CW mentioned earlier. And I imagine some of the Buddha's students, if not the Buddha himself, had experience with it.
Earlier, when I said it wasn't part of the Buddha's teachings, I was going by the texts as we know them. That doesn't mean that the chakra system wasn't part of the culture that was the matrix in which the Buddha and his disciples lived.
Thanks for the article, by the way. And, even more off-topic, I've found that some Tibetans do have low self-esteem and serious emotional problems. That's why the tradition constantly talks about eliminating hate and jealousy. Emotional issues manifest differently for Westerners than for Tibetans, in my observation.
Well sure, individuals are individuals, but I haven't met any Tibetans with serious emotional issues that are truly practicing the tradition, quite the opposite actually. Only those without deep practice experience such psychological hardships it seems. But, I guess that goes for any tradition.
I agree with the bulk of what you're saying though, thank you for clarifying.
Inching back toward the OP: @Vajraheart I think it might be splitting hairs to say tantra developed in Buuddhism first. The roots of tantra go way way back before Buddhism developed, back to Goddess worship, back to the Neolithic, some experts say. So at what stage in its develeopment do we label it "Tantra"? You may be reading different scholars on the subject than I am. Ronald Davidson says tantric influences came into Buddhism in India's medieval times. N. Bhattacharyya explains the development of tantra from ancient roots. I'd be interested in checking out your reading list.
In any case, it's here to stay in Buddhism, and it sounds by your description, people are getting a lot out of it, good, positive change. As long as they handle tantra responsibly, that's the kicker. Not everyone does, and not everyone has the same motives for practicing it.
Question: did the chakra "science" exist apart from tantra, or is it exclusively a tantric system of knowledge?
It seems that Taoists have this knowledge too. St. Theresa of Avila expresses some Tantric experience in her Autobiography, but she doesn't call it by the same name. Also do Sufi mystics.
See... when it comes down to what came first... we are merely talking about this Earth, but when we get into Tantric cosmology, we are talking about endless cycles and different world systems where Tantra was practiced prier to the advent of humanity on Earth, so the texts say. I have experiences which give these theories credence though, so I don't really doubt these statements as much as the next person might?
I'm reading a book that says Tantra came to Buddhism and Islam via Christian proselytizing, but not by the kind of Christians we usually think of as proselytizers. It was taken east by Gnostic Christians, who spread throughout the Mid-East, had a community in Babylon, and spread as far as Western Tibet, now Ladakh, or thereabouts. They even got up into Central Asia and the oasis communities around those Buddhist caves north of Tibet.
I don't know if I believe this theory, but it's interesting.
Right, the Taoists had this knowledge, and they also had "longevity practices" (=tantra). I wonder if anyone knows how long they had that knowledge.
Comments
Tantra became part of every major school of Indian thought by the 3rd century AD. Buddhas will always evolve Buddhism according to the needs of the masses. The Buddha, as in Shakyamuni, wasn't even the first Buddha... according to Mahayana.
"...according to the needs of the masses", is maybe an idea of somebody after Buddha, but I dont think his own. As well he was quite aware that his teachings are not understandable by the mass.
"The Buddha, as in Shakyamuni, wasn't even the first Buddha... according to Mahayana.", so was it told by the Buddha himself, and every school is normally aware of it. He did not quote him self as an inventor but as somebody who is able to retell what every liberated being would know but sometimes not be able to teach. :wave:
Your early posts clearly show a poor command of English, yet here you are, speaking English as fluently (almost) as anyone else here.
Wow...
A post earlier this month:
"Well pure land I guess is easy for many to except. Let me say, I am talking about Dhamma.
There is not one asian, who do not like to go west haha and not one western, who likes to go more western and end up in the so called east :-)
Go west never die and grow, but Dhamma-understanding...
Did you know that Afghanistan was a Buddhist country. So much great teaching and understanding that one time there nearly haven't be people left. :-)
Beware, the good will disappear!"
And today, just days later, we had this:
"I guess the problem is that many misunderstand folkloric tradition and adoption of Dharma elements into existing believe systems it self as Vajrayana. We always need to wash the cultural defilement out first.
But actually mostly we grasp on that what is needed to wash out, we love to identify our self's."
That's a pretty impressive leap.
Context - or content - in this case is irrelevant.
But your comment now, is not consistent with your progress. Odd.
So no drawer to put it into?
Maybe the context could have some relevancy.
You have a good job. *smile*
Fore sure its not mad to find one time to the noble eightfold path. Cleaning the storage rack mindfully could also lead to this.
So let it be a secret for the special one, as it is very special. *smile* Some not so special could easily misunderstand it, thinking cleaning the racks leads to peace.
And the wheel goes on...
"You first!" "No, you!" Thinking: "I am the one!"
As it's said, "A person ready to serve is fit to lead." If there are many on a ship as such realized to that degree, they would all agree to get off at the same time according to their personal capacity, helping each other along the way through example.
Simply attachment and wrong view. If one is really form that size he would not invite others if there is a easier way.
That is just continue harming for the sake of doing good. What an excuse. :wave:
Even a majority of Vajra students never give them a second thought.
"They've become trendy."
Maybe it will as trendy as "handy" soon, "handy" gives 437mio. hits. So its for sure helpful.
Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.
For sure its popularity has a reason *smile*
1. Yoga is not wrong livelihood, nor compensation thereof
2. Yoga has much virtue - and a code of ethics virtually identical to Buddhism
Yoga and Buddhism may be ultimately separate paths, but they also contain much that complement one another along the way.
*No smile*
*smile*
Maybe there have been some yoga practicing vinaya Bhikkhus or Buddhas in the past.
Nothing wrong with it, as long as we don't miss the real way.
Summary: Lama Shenpen explains how students must take responsibility for themselves if they adopt special practices that are outside what is normally taught in her Sangha. They can have unforeseen consequences.
A student asks:
Some time ago I decided I would like to learn the practice of inner heat. Firstly because I often feel cold, especially my hands, and I thought it would help me meditate more easily when my body feels cold, and give me more energy. Secondly, I have started practising yoga again and it suddenly felt quite logical to go from yoga to Tantra. I had heard that many monks and other practitioners in Tibetan Buddhism do the practice of inner heat, and that it is "nothing special". However, after reading a book about it, it appears that this is very special indeed, and seems to be the fastest way to achieve enlightenment! So I thought, well, if it is that efficient, there have to be side effects or there must be other reasons not to do it. Or else, everybody would be doing it, wouldn’t they?
Lama Shenpen replies:
Good thinking. In general the practices that are said to be the fastest means to achieve enlightenment depend on the disciple having an exceptionally good samaya with their teacher. Generally speaking success in Dharma depends mainly on the purity of one’s intention and vision. Techniques can be harnessed by yogins under the right circumstances to speed up some of the changes. However they might go wrong and cause distraction and disturbance and even worse can yield powers that increase the egocentricity of the practitioner instead of undercutting it. Well this can happen with any so called Dharma practice but some practices can do so more powerfully than others.
Student:
I have been trying out a light (less powerful) version for a few weeks, and it does seem to deepen my meditation. I also did various other practices like prostrations to prevent me from getting blasé about being a "special practitioner".
And if I practice it, should I tell other students about it or is there a danger that they get distracted from their main practice? I also wonder if I might get distracted from my main practice?
Lama Shenpen:
Well, the thing is that I don‘t know what this light practice is and I am not suggesting you do it. So you do it at your own risk so to speak. I take responsibility for what I teach and for the advice I give. I cannot really advise you on this one. In general the connection between body and mind is quite delicate and doing yogic exercises that affect that balance need to be carefully supervised. A lot of the time if not most of the time nothing much happens and the student simply experiences perhaps a better sense of shamata – at least up to a point. I know that in the West these days light versions of the six yogas are being taught without transmission or tantric empowerment and without supervision. I cannot answer for any of this. How could I? I do not know what is being taught and how the student is going to practice it and how the student is going to supervised.
Student:
I would really appreciate your opinion on this. I feel I should not be doing practices "outside the curriculum" without asking you first.
Lama Shenpen:
That is wise.
**********
Dharma: Truth or reality.
Samaya: Bond, as between teacher and students, or among students; connection, promise, commitment.
Shamata: Any meditation technique that leads to sustained peace and calm; unwavering concentration.
Tantra: Texts dealing with meditation techniques and magic.
In case anyone's wondering, Inner Heat is about raising the Kundalini through the chakra system, so it does relate to the OP, tangentially. Maybe this comes under the "What else am I missing?" part of the OP.
"Summary: Lama Shenpen explains how students must take responsibility for themselves if they adopt special practices that are outside what is normally taught in her Sangha. They can have unforeseen consequences."
for sure it would have heavy consequences on the livelihood of the teacher. Think about it.
I guess its always good and worthy to crosscheck things. *smile*
There is nothing special in practicing the noble eightfold path. But some might do not like to have their chicken fly.
Bottled Water, Spring Water
It's like putting water in a bottle and giving it to someone to drink. Once he's finished drinking it, he'll have to come back and ask for more — for the water isn't water in a spring. It's water in a bottle. But if you show the spring to the person and tell him to get water there, he can sit there and keep on drinking water and won't ask you for any more, for the water never runs out.
It's the same when we see inconstancy, stress, and not-self. It goes deep, for we really know, we know all the way in. Ordinary knowledge doesn't know all the way in. If we know all the way in, it never grows stale. Whatever arises, we know it correctly — and things disband. We know correctly without stop.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms.html
Economic beside the economic of Dana needs attachment, so maybe its just special, because its a special kind (different to the way taught of the Buddha) of economy.
Once knowing the spring, there could be no more business with bottles. *smile*
It don't must to be like that, but we need to be sure if there are not some strings and those strings causes the way of teaching.
Water is water. When you are in Europe it is in bottles with bubbles. When you are a dog it is in a bowl. Etc..
Vaguely I need to thinks so, that yoga has nothing to do with the eightfold path, but for sure it can lead also to it if it is taught with the right intention to lead people to it. Vaguely.
Maybe it has also to do with the use of the word yogi. When we speak about Dharma and refer to meditating people we use the word Yogi.
The word has its origin from somebody who is practicing Yoga, but that is the Hindu part. For sure there is a lot of mix.
"The word is also often used in the Buddhist context to describe Buddhist monks or a householder devoted to meditation."
Buddhist tantra doesn't really experience kundalini sickness because we treat the chakras differently.
Kundalini is a monistic and eternalistic concept, so this would not be in conjunction with Buddhist cosmology.
The truth is in the details. There are some Buddhist scholars that like to think they are the same, but they are not... here's a brief article.
http://easternhealingarts.com/Articles/KundaliniTibet.html
"In Buddhism the prana and shakti energy moving through the body are called the winds. Buddhist teachings do not focus on manipulating the kundalini shakti and they are not as focused on the unchanging aspect of the chakras, and their objective content ie. the fixed seed syllables and their corresponding bija mantras and gods and goddesses, which one finds in the Hindu Yoga system. The Buddhist system is more focused on the functions of the energy centers and that which flows through them."ie. , with the transformation of the cosmic or nature-energies into spiritual potentialities." In Buddhism the "seed mantras or primordial sounds" are associated with the continuous flow of energies and their interactions. The Buddha in his great wisdom taught his students to focus on, and work with the "prajna", the wisdom of the heart, because the wisdom of non-dual awareness tempers and brings harmony to the power of the kundalini shakti.
I have found that traditional Tibetan Buddhist monks do not have kundalini related problems and yet the energy is actively moving up the central channel. The Buddhist approach works safely and very effectively to purify the latent unconscious forces, associated with the different chakras. When these latent energies, the causes of the blockages and resistance are brought into consciousness and released into the light of awareness, the winds (shakti) will naturally, safely enter the central channel, and rise up the sushumna without the need for willful manipulation. The webs between the chakras dissipate in a natural way and this allows for illumination of the different levels of consciousness associated with the chakras.
One of the beginning practices in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is called shinay or tranquility meditation and it helps us train the mind to become more focused, and calm so we can experience true tranquility and openness of the mind. This makes the mind a more effective tool for the next level of meditation called lhaktong or insight meditation. Insight meditation involves acknowledging and uprooting the neurotic patterns and repressed emotions which cloud our true nature, allowing us to rest in the union of clarity and absolute awareness. There are many other Buddhist practices for purification and the development of greater love, compassion, and wisdom.
The traditional Buddhist approach works safely, efficiently and effectively to dispel the neurotic patterns, the illusions, the latent unconscious forces that create resistance to the flow of the kundalini shakti in the sushumna and the prana in the chakras and meridians. One learns very effective practical information and tools for accepting the physical, emotional and mental experiences, our fears and anxieties, as they arise and how to stop reacting to them. This brings detachment and freedom from our "stuff" and interestingly enough the problem with kundalini subsides. When you increase your understanding and awareness of the true cause of suffering, and then take appropriate, skillful action, you will gradually become free of illusion, the causal origin or source of suffering, and also free of your kundalini related symptoms.
Buddhism in America is changing, just as it has adapted to every country to which it has spread. American Buddhist practitioners come from many diverse cultural, religious, spiritual and non-spiritual backgrounds. We have psychological and emotional problems unique to our society. When the Dalai Lama first heard about how many people in America suffer from low or no self esteem he was very surprised, apparently this was not a problem in Tibetan culture. A growing number of American practitioners, who have already been involved with Kundalini Yoga Tantric practices or New Age approaches to working with the subtle energies, are moving into the Tibetan Buddhist tradition with kundalini related problems. The highly trained and traditional Tibetan Tantric masters may have little or no personal experience with the many kundalini associated problems, that have manifested for American practitioners. However, I have found that, from my personal kundalini experience and my experience from working with "kundalini sufferers," that the basic teachings of the Buddha are still one of the most effective ways for working with kundalini aggravated suffering. One does not have to be a Buddhist to benefit from the Buddha's teachings."
Isn't it nonsense to let people make extra turn? It would be better to tantrisice some modern worldviews.
My attempt to prevent the thread from bogging down into a lengthy discussion of Kundalini/Inner Fire, etc. failed miserably.
Thanks for the article, by the way. And, even more off-topic, I've found that some Tibetans do have low self-esteem and serious emotional problems. That's why the tradition constantly talks about eliminating hate and jealousy. Emotional issues manifest differently for Westerners than for Tibetans, in my observation.
In any case, it's here to stay in Buddhism, and it sounds by your description, people are getting a lot out of it, good, positive change. As long as they handle tantra responsibly, that's the kicker. Not everyone does, and not everyone has the same motives for practicing it.
Question: did the chakra "science" exist apart from tantra, or is it exclusively a tantric system of knowledge?
Remember Shakyamuni buddha was not an author of texts.
Earlier, when I said it wasn't part of the Buddha's teachings, I was going by the texts as we know them. That doesn't mean that the chakra system wasn't part of the culture that was the matrix in which the Buddha and his disciples lived.
I agree with the bulk of what you're saying though, thank you for clarifying.
See... when it comes down to what came first... we are merely talking about this Earth, but when we get into Tantric cosmology, we are talking about endless cycles and different world systems where Tantra was practiced prier to the advent of humanity on Earth, so the texts say. I have experiences which give these theories credence though, so I don't really doubt these statements as much as the next person might?
I don't know if I believe this theory, but it's interesting.
Right, the Taoists had this knowledge, and they also had "longevity practices" (=tantra). I wonder if anyone knows how long they had that knowledge.