Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Portals of Nothingness

edited January 2012 in General Banter
Scientists say that the entire universe came from an infinitely small, and infinitely dense, singularity, which expanded out into what we call the Universe, which is still expanding today. Even as it continues to expand, it is still an expansion of that initial singularity. When we want to talk about who we truly are in this equation, we could say we are something like a portal, or a gateway. We are a nothingness, through which all information has the potential to pass through. What we like to call things are really thoughts, and what we like to call thoughts are really things. The two do not differ, in truth. The “thoughts” and “things” fight to sustain their existence, and since they are momentary phenomena, it is necessary for them to latch on to something in order to gain some sense of a lasting existence. They lack any inherent nature, and so beyond the fight to be sustained as entities, they need to be processed by us in order to be separate entities in the first place.

Information is the essential nature of all things. Pure information populates all of reality. Information is pointless without being processed, which is why it seeks a portal through which to be understood. The portal itself is nothing, but it is only through these portals of nothingness that the information can be processed. We are these portals of nothingness. The information cannot exist without the portals, for the nature of the portals is infinite potential, and a thing cannot exist without the potential for that thing first existing. The source for all things is the nothingness, and this nothingness manifests as portals for information to pass through, something like a black hole. Although the portals are essentially nothing, they contain within themselves all potential information, and therefore it is not so inaccurate to say that the portal is everything.

Any particular range of information is limited, which is why it is impermanent and cannot sustain itself. We, as portals, tend to identify with a limited range of information, which is why we ourselves feel so impermanent and insignificant. As information passes into your awareness, allow it to flow through you, without getting caught up in it. Recognize them for what they are, limited expressions of your potential as it expands, entering into the portal that is your consciousness. They are not who you are, and through your attachment you make them more than they are, while simultaneously making yourself less than you are.

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    This isn't Buddhism per se....
    Moved to General Banter.
    Please reserve matter relating to simple Buddhism for the 'Buddhism for Beginners' forum.
    Any other esoterically-themed discussion should go in this forum...

    Thank you.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Your thoughts resonate with me and on some level ring true. I have to ask though, where do you get your info from. I don't feel I can accept this idea without some other source.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Like Person, these thoughts resonate with me as well, however, I would also like to know where you get your information from. Thanks for sharing!
  • Portals of nothing coming from nowhere going nowhere.... When not analyzed here it is...
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Scientists say that the entire universe came from an infinitely small, and infinitely dense, singularity, which expanded out into what we call the Universe, which is still expanding today. Even as it continues to expand, it is still an expansion of that initial singularity. When we want to talk about who we truly are in this equation, we could say we are something like a portal, or a gateway. We are a nothingness, through which all information has the potential to pass through. What we like to call things are really thoughts, and what we like to call thoughts are really things.
    this is new-age nonsense...
    The two do not differ, in truth. The “thoughts” and “things” fight to sustain their existence, and since they are momentary phenomena, it is necessary for them to latch on to something in order to gain some sense of a lasting existence. They lack any inherent nature, and so beyond the fight to be sustained as entities, they need to be processed by us in order to be separate entities in the first place.
    ...and this makes absolutely no sense at all....
    Information is the essential nature of all things. Pure information populates all of reality. Information is pointless without being processed, which is why it seeks a portal through which to be understood.

    The portal itself is nothing, but it is only through these portals of nothingness that the information can be processed. We are these portals of nothingness. The information cannot exist without the portals, for the nature of the portals is infinite potential, and a thing cannot exist without the potential for that thing first existing. The source for all things is the nothingness, and this nothingness manifests as portals for information to pass through, something like a black hole. Although the portals are essentially nothing, they contain within themselves all potential information, and therefore it is not so inaccurate to say that the portal is everything.
    ....What?! :wtf:
    ..... and through your attachment you make them more than they are, while simultaneously making yourself less than you are.
    I'm sorry i was so blunt, but honestly....this is ridiculous...
    I'm with the others... where do you get all this from?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited January 2012
    I find this no more ridiculous than emptiness. "Emptiness is form, form is emptiness". "we have no inherent existence, everything arises based on conditions." "Awakened beings inhabit Absolute Reality, so their actions aren't comprehensible to those dwelling in mundane reality."

    Energy is matter, matter is congealed energy. Particles are waves and particles at the same time. The location of any given particle is unpredictable and unknowable until it becomes fixed by an observer.

    Gibberish.
  • "The Dharmakaya pervades all space." (Add to the above list.)
  • I like how my teacher teaches emptiness as an experience. The dharmakaya is something that can be found in your own experience, though I haven't found it in mine yet. Pema Chodron says we experience shunyata as a sense of 'no big deal'. It's amusing how people can get excited about 'emptiness' meanwhile they are making a big deal. Call me guilty of that one though, but I have a mood disorder.. sooo.. :coffee:
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Scientists say that the entire universe came from an infinitely small, and infinitely dense, singularity, which expanded out into what we call the Universe, which is still expanding today. Even as it continues to expand, it is still an expansion of that initial singularity. When we want to talk about who we truly are in this equation, we could say we are something like a portal, or a gateway. We are a nothingness, through which all information has the potential to pass through. What we like to call things are really thoughts, and what we like to call thoughts are really things.
    this is new-age nonsense...
    The two do not differ, in truth. The “thoughts” and “things” fight to sustain their existence, and since they are momentary phenomena, it is necessary for them to latch on to something in order to gain some sense of a lasting existence. They lack any inherent nature, and so beyond the fight to be sustained as entities, they need to be processed by us in order to be separate entities in the first place.
    ...and this makes absolutely no sense at all....
    Information is the essential nature of all things. Pure information populates all of reality. Information is pointless without being processed, which is why it seeks a portal through which to be understood.

    The portal itself is nothing, but it is only through these portals of nothingness that the information can be processed. We are these portals of nothingness. The information cannot exist without the portals, for the nature of the portals is infinite potential, and a thing cannot exist without the potential for that thing first existing. The source for all things is the nothingness, and this nothingness manifests as portals for information to pass through, something like a black hole. Although the portals are essentially nothing, they contain within themselves all potential information, and therefore it is not so inaccurate to say that the portal is everything.
    ....What?! :wtf:
    ..... and through your attachment you make them more than they are, while simultaneously making yourself less than you are.
    I'm sorry i was so blunt, but honestly....this is ridiculous...
    I'm with the others... where do you get all this from?
    I tend to agree with Federica on this one.

    First,"Scientists say". What part of the original post does this apply to?

    Second, this nebulous thinking, even if accurate, is not the kind of thinking a scientist would participate in. Nothing can be tested.



  • Scientists such as Carl Sagan do talk about the possibility of the universe starting as a singularity. The catch is that all of the laws of physics would necessarily break down in such a state. Thus density and volume wouldn't mean anything without any laws of physics applying.
  • I find this no more ridiculous than emptiness. "Emptiness is form, form is emptiness". "we have no inherent existence, everything arises based on conditions.".
    The difference is that the Buddhist idea of emptiness has been examined and demonstrated through logic by Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti and others and their work is hard to argue with or refute. @ImmersedOne 's view would not stand up to a logical examination.
  • Sounds like neo advaita vedanta.

    Dependent origination basically experientially and logically disproves a first cause.

    :(
  • edited January 2012
    Like Person, these thoughts resonate with me as well, however, I would also like to know where you get your information from. Thanks for sharing!
    To you and person, it's tough for me to point to a specific source. All of my writings and thoughts come from a great range of viewpoints and logical/spiritual systems that I have studied, as well as a great deal of independent thought, etc. Long ago have I moved beyond looking for justification from a specific source or person for my ideas, in part because it is an appeal to authority, which gives unnecessary credence to a particular conceptual-system, when the truth is not to be found in limited conceptual frameworks. My thoughts require an abandoning of all assumptions and beliefs you have acquired over time, and an open look into all things, without conceptual and linguistic attachments.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Thanks @ImmersedOne. You may be interested to know that there's a newer hypothesis that the universe sprang from nothing. This nothing doesn't sound to me like an absolute nothing but its a different take than the singularity.

  • But is a singularity really nothing? I thought it was something.
  • But is a singularity really nothing? I thought it was something.
    infinitely small and infinitely dense is akin to everything contained within "nothing." It is where infinity meets 0.
  • With a singularity all laws of physics break down. Thus we don't know what it is.
  • If it's infinitely dense, it's definitely something, it's not nothing. It's its density that is what allows it to explode into a universe.
  • There is no meaning to density if there are no laws of physics.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    The hypothesis that I was referring to involves quantum flux and isn't the same as the infinitly dense singularity.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Talk about an imponderable.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    @immersedone - your expression resonates very much like an expression of dzogchen for me... it feels like you're trying to express with your experience what the great natural perfection feels like to you...

    I'm not sure if this research is published as yet and for the life of me I cant remember the name of the team but I read something on black holes last year due to be published - singularity occurs at the 'end' of a black hole - physics breaks down at this point so nothing can be hypothesised about it - this is unacceptable to objective science - an alternative is to consider 'data' rather than energy - therefore energy is not lost to the event horizon and singularity at the end of the black hole, energy is 'materialised' data and it is the data that is left at the event horizon (the energy never really existed)... this deals with the fundemental problem of 'lost' energy in black holes

    So one proposition is that the material universe we as humans experience is a 2 dimentional representation of the true multidimentional 'data' - the 3rd dimention is time apparently... the maths to this assists in the singularity quandary and balances many other equations also apparently

    My understanding of the theory is that it says something like - there is source data (which by definition is all data) and expressions of 'data' which is material experienced in the universe by an observer... the interaction between the two occur along a timeline but time is relative to the observer...

    this sounds akin to thought and action coming together in the moment...? I guess that we are at the boundaries of science being expressed as a philosophy so it is inevitable that it will overlap with spiritual theories...

    That said, we are all made up of the matter of the universe and are indistinct in it - perhaps the rawest, purest spiritual expression is the true nature as experiencable by the subjective observer and something that objective science can never comprehend as the expression of the universe is inherently subjective and not objective... (as objectively nothing and everything collide into paradox)...
  • That is an interesting hypothesis, but here is the first and most important question any explanation of reality has to answer: is there any way of proving it right or wrong?

    If you take the term "information" and replace it with "Spirit" or "Mana" or "Illuminus" or "Oneness" or "Godhood" it would not change the message one bit. "The universe has an essential nature, that nature is called (fill in the blank) and this universal force permeates everything. Because of our limitations we cannot comprehend the true nature of (fill in the blank)." I'm not disparaging what you're saying, just pointing out that it's the same message with new clothes. I'd ask, how can you tell that your information theory is correct, and not the spirit one? Or would you say they are all talking about the same thing?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    To you and person, it's tough for me to point to a specific source. All of my writings and thoughts come from a great range of viewpoints and logical/spiritual systems that I have studied, as well as a great deal of independent thought, .......My thoughts require an abandoning of all assumptions and beliefs you have acquired over time, and an open look into all things, without conceptual and linguistic attachments.
    This is about as self-contradictory as you can get.....

  • That is an interesting hypothesis, but here is the first and most important question any explanation of reality has to answer: is there any way of proving it right or wrong?

    If you take the term "information" and replace it with "Spirit" or "Mana" or "Illuminus" or "Oneness" or "Godhood" it would not change the message one bit. "The universe has an essential nature, that nature is called (fill in the blank) and this universal force permeates everything. Because of our limitations we cannot comprehend the true nature of (fill in the blank)." I'm not disparaging what you're saying, just pointing out that it's the same message with new clothes. I'd ask, how can you tell that your information theory is correct, and not the spirit one? Or would you say they are all talking about the same thing?

    Quite true. And I would say they are all saying the same thing. I would in fact say that all concepts are describing the same thing, just different aspects of it. Thus there is only one fundamental "thing," whatever you would like to call it, but it manifests as an infinite number of apparently different things.
  • If it's infinitely dense, it's definitely something, it's not nothing. It's its density that is what allows it to explode into a universe.
    What's the closest possible number to 0?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    the number zero in pure maths - doesn't exist.....so I'm told.....
  • the number zero in pure maths - doesn't exist.....so I'm told.....
    You are told wrong. In pure maths, zero most certainly does exist. In fact, if you had to pick the MOST important number we have, it would be a very strong candidate.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero

    But if you want to get real funky, check this out:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number

    These are numbers such as the square root of -1, which according to the basic arithmetic we learn in school, shouldn't exist (because the square of any number supposedly should always be positive) ... and yet, by applying such 'imaginary' concepts, pure maths provides many solutions to real-world problems.
  • What's the closest possible number to 0?
    It wouldn't be a regular number, but you could express it as a function such as:

    x = 1- 1/2 - 1/4 - 1/8 - 1/16 ... etc.

    X thus approaches a limit of 0 but never reaches it. With proper maths notation using algebra (instead of the long-hand version I have given), X is effectively the closest possible number to 0.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    the number zero in pure maths - doesn't exist.....so I'm told.....
    You are told wrong. In pure maths, zero most certainly does exist.
    I think it exists as far as any other abstract concept does but I think its a fiction in that zero is the empty set (so substance given to nothing) - my understanding of this is that it is a fiction employed to assist calculations as the notion of nothing is tough to understand...
  • The beautiful thing about maths is that abstract concepts end up having very real applications.
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    Hey, can someone tell me why can't we divide by 0? I could never understand it...
  • Hey, can someone tell me why can't we divide by 0? I could never understand it...
    You can't divide potential that doesn't fall into is or isn't.

    Each symbol has a referent. Zero has no true referent. Well no thing really does.

    You need reference points which are minds projections. What reference points does zero have? And in fact all number have no reference points other than what the mind asserts. 1 and 2 have no inherent linkage.

    A construct asserted is always a divisiable puzzle. Always in relation. Interdependence is seperation, yet containing all potential.
  • If we have zero apples then there is no appleness and we are at the same existentially as zero oranges. Therefore zero apples = zero oranges. Even though 1 apple does not equal 1 orange.

    On the other hand there are subtle differences between each apple. Apple is only a mental label. Thus all we ever have is describable but not any certain category. Or rather the assignment of a category is a projection.
  • From the Vimalakirti Sutra:
    “The nature of all things is like illusion, like a magical incarnation. So you should not fear them. Why? All words also have that nature, and thus the wise are not attached to words, nor do they fear them. Why? All language does not ultimately exist, except as liberation. The nature of all things is liberation.”

    I like that quote; I don’t understand it though.
    All language; all things, just liberation.

    These words describing “Portals of Nothingness” can be seen as liberation, but when they’re taken for something else, they’re just another prison cell.


  • From the Vimalakirti Sutra:
    “The nature of all things is like illusion, like a magical incarnation. So you should not fear them. Why? All words also have that nature, and thus the wise are not attached to words, nor do they fear them. Why? All language does not ultimately exist, except as liberation. The nature of all things is liberation.”

    I like that quote; I don’t understand it though.
    All language; all things, just liberation.

    These words describing “Portals of Nothingness” can be seen as liberation, but when they’re taken for something else, they’re just another prison cell.


    I like that quote! As I said in OP, all things and words are lacking in inherent nature. This is to say these "things" don't actually exist, at least in the way we consider "things" to exist. Thus you could say they are like illusions. The same is said of words, and thus the wise neither attach to words nor fear them. A wise individual does not get caught up in specific words, does not enter into a mind where he would believe that one individual must accept a certain word, or series of words. These are just words, illusory, without real meaning. Neither does the wise individual fear words, though. He must be free to use words as temporary representations of truth, properly given to certain individuals with certain dispositions which can then be used as a means of liberation; thus the nature of all things/words is liberation, in that they hold the potential to liberate an individual of certain dispositions.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    See... I knew it was something like that.... I just didn't know how to put it into words.... :D
  • @zenff

    Thank you for that quote. Made my whole weekend/night.
  • Hey, can someone tell me why can't we divide by 0? I could never understand it...
    Because you can't split something into 0 parts. It's meaningless.

  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    Hey, can someone tell me why can't we divide by 0? I could never understand it...
    Because you can't split something into 0 parts. It's meaningless.

    What about myltiplying by 0? Isn't it making something "disappear"?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    no, because what you are multiplying already exists.
    However, it cannot be increased by something which doesn't.
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    Hmm, have to look at it more closely. I always assumed Buddhism and maths are like two different worlds, but maybe not so!
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    Once I read some interesting book about maths which contained philosophical discussions about whether mathematical principles are "created" by human mind, or "discovered" as a truth of the Universe. Interesting parallel with enlightenment, I'd say.
  • The mind can look at an object and see both the wholeness (one) and divisibility (parts) of the object.

    This is possible because it is only the minds projection of wholeness and parts. The whole contains the part and the part contains the whole. Projection is a whole projected on parts and wholeness projected onto parts to be considered parts. And so on and so on.

    The concept of zero is the same concept as emptiness. It points to the groundless ground. Multiplicity and singularity only exist as nominal projections. The appearance is just an interpretation based on dualistic projection. If one were to experience anything one would see that oneness and separation are merely projections. Reality lacks any intrinsic quality.

    Even labels such as permanence and impermanence are not applicable to reality. How is permanence possible if all is based on conditions. How is impermanence possible without a mind to link 1 to 2.

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandokai

    Identity of Relative and Absolute


    The mind of the Great Sage of India was intimately

    conveyed from west to east.

    Among human beings are wise ones and fools,

    But in the Way there is no northern or southern Patriarch.

    The subtle source is clear and bright; the tributary

    streams flow through the darkness.

    To be attached to things is illusion;

    To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.

    Each and all, the subjective and objective spheres are related,

    and at the same time, independent.

    Related, yet working differently, though each keeps its own place.

    Form makes the character and appearance different;

    Sounds distinguish comfort and discomfort.

    The dark makes all words one; the brightness distinguishes good and bad phrases.

    The four elements return to their nature as a child to its mother.

    Fire is hot, wind moves, water is wet, earth hard.

    Eyes see, ears hear, nose smells, tongue tastes the salt and sour.

    Each is independent of the other; cause and effect must return to the great reality

    Like leaves that come from the same root.

    The words high and low are used relatively.

    Within light there is darkness, but do not try to understand that darkness;

    Within darkness there is light, but do not look for that light.

    Light and darkness are a pair, like the foot before

    and the foot behind, in walking. Each thing has its own intrinsic value

    and is related to everything else in function and position.

    Ordinary life fits the absolute as a box ands its lid.

    The absolute works together with the relative like two arrows meeting in mid-air.

    Reading words you should grasp the great reality. Do not judge by any standards.

    If you do not see the Way, you do not see it even as you walk on it.

    When you walk the Way, it is not near, it is not far.

    If you are deluded, you are mountains and rivers away from it.

    I respectfully say to those who wish to be enlightened:

    Do not waste your time by night or day.
Sign In or Register to comment.