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Scientists Finally Conclude Nonhuman Animals Are Conscious Beings!!

DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
edited August 2012 in General Banter
I had this feeling all along! Especially with my dog Taj! Something about him, felt like he was human like! Much more conscious than anything else. What have been your experience with animals?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201208/scientists-finally-conclude-nonhuman-animals-are-conscious-beings
CloudArthurbodhi

Comments

  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    No shit !
    LostLightDaltheJigsawfederica
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    LMAO!
  • LostLightLostLight Veteran
    I'm pretty sure this was proven years ago as well...but I guess it's a good reminder to limit meat intake.
    DaltheJigsaw
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited August 2012
    More important, I think, is that within this declaration they recognize the "intentional behaviors" of animals, or animal free will. :D

    "along with the capacity to exhibit intentional behaviors"

    And of course most importantly are those repercussions alluded to about protecting animals from cruelty, inhumane treatment and what-not.
    DaltheJigsawLostLight
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Glad all of you agree!:)
  • musicmusic
    Moo!
    DaltheJigsaw
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Porpoises are very bright :p
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    And of course most importantly are those repercussions alluded to about protecting animals from cruelty, inhumane treatment and what-not.

    And being killed for food?
    DaltheJigsaw
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    Maybe some day. I think the number of vegetarians and vegans is growing, at least that's the sense I get.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    PedanticPorpoise said:

    Porpoises are very bright :p

    Of course, though they're very, very pedantic. :D

    person
  • poptartpoptart Veteran
    Cloud said:

    Maybe some day. I think the number of vegetarians and vegans is growing, at least that's the sense I get.

    But why should all those vegetables die?

    image
    CloudMaryAnneDaltheJigsawperson
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    Don't get too excited. When you look at the details of what the scientists are saying, they are not saying animals are people wearing fur and feathers. Scientists still haven't even defined what consciousness means to everyone's satisfaction. To a scientist, it does not mean what you want it to mean; that there is a person inside that body.

    While a century ago some biologists tried to treat animals like machines reacting to their instinctive programming, it's been a while since scientists have known some animals exhibit a limited range of behavior including emotions, memory, problem solving, and pattern recognition that we also have. We know animals can suffer. We know animals can have fun and play. To go on and conclude that an animal is self-aware is highly debatable in the scientific world right now.

    There is no human consciousness inside a dog. There is a dog consciousness, perfect in its dogginess.
    MaryAnneDaltheJigsaw
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Cinorjer said:

    Don't get too excited. .....it does not mean what you want it to mean; that there is a person inside that body.

    ......
    There is no human consciousness inside a dog. There is a dog consciousness, perfect in its dogginess.

    Dog Consciousness is good enough for me.
    Acknowledgement that there is a consciousness is still valid, in whichever way one might interpret it.
    How people interpret it, is immaterial. THAT they do - is positive.

  • ZeroZero Veteran
    Cinorjer said:


    To go on and conclude that an animal is self-aware is highly debatable in the scientific world right now.

    They won't be making that announcement any time soon... I can't remember who said it (it was a scientist) but something along the lines of 'people don't change their opinions, one convinces the new generation and the old generation die off and the change happens'... something like that.

    The tests that establish self awareness in humans are satisfied by a number of animals - the results do not immediately support self awareness as this is assumed for humans rather than universally defined.

    A key indicator of self awareness is 'planning'... in order to plan, one must have the context of a self to strive from... an abstract pin to put down and work around - automatons don't plan.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited August 2012
    federica said:

    Cinorjer said:

    Don't get too excited. .....it does not mean what you want it to mean; that there is a person inside that body.

    ......
    There is no human consciousness inside a dog. There is a dog consciousness, perfect in its dogginess.

    Dog Consciousness is good enough for me.
    Acknowledgement that there is a consciousness is still valid, in whichever way one might interpret it.
    How people interpret it, is immaterial. THAT they do - is positive.

    I agree with that. However, humanity goes around treating other humans in inhumane ways, so I don't see pointing out that animals are conscious as making much of a difference in the real world. After all, for most of our history slavery was accepted and the fact that the slaves were obviously conscious meant not a thing to most people. But there always were people who saw through the justifications, I think.

    If we can't as a species learn to treat each other with dignity and respect and compassion, I'm afraid we're facing a losing battle when it comes to other species.

    But then again, I'm feeling rather discouraged and cynical this morning. I've been told I'm a real downer when that happens. I'll feel better in a while.
    ZeroMaryAnneDaltheJigsaw
  • tmottestmottes Veteran
    Zero said:

    The tests that establish self awareness in humans are satisfied by a number of animals - the results do not immediately support self awareness as this is assumed for humans rather than universally defined

    Perhaps the assumptions that we have something that animals don't is only one-half of the show. I believe it goes both ways: other beings have things we don't have. The assumption that we are somehow beings+ has always given me cause to pause.

  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    just tumbling some ideas around:

    Let's assume we (humans) were wrong all along and all mammals have "consciousness" and awareness. Yes, I believe there should be a distinction between mammals and other types of living things... based on nothing scientific, just to keep it a little simpler for my simple mind. :)

    So let's assume we were wrong all along... Now some of us are assuming this means there should be some sort of discontinuation of what we call "The Food Chain" and humans will no longer eat the meat of other mammals.

    But does that /did that stop all the other mammals from participating in The Food Chain?
    If they have consciousness and awareness, why are they still operating on well, 'instinct' and killing/eating mammals (below them) on the food chain?
    Does consciousness change the food chain at all?

    If we've been wrong all along, then obviously The Food Chain continued - regardless of the level of "consciousness and awareness" we assumed other mammals had - or didn't have.
    I'm not sure declaring mammals have 'consciousness' - alone - can be the deciding factor for eliminating the desire, the instinct, or the necessity to eat meat......

  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Just lost my cat this morning to say they are not as conscious as us is simply wrong and Im glad they have finally come to this conclusion it was sad to see no light in his eyes this morning. :(
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    so sorry for your loss.... losing pets is so very difficult. :(
    I've been there myself too often.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    Unless animals start talking, I really don't think the public at large will ever really stop eating meat... Although I do agree that veg/veganism is growing.

    @caz So sorry to hear that. :( As an animal lover, I've been there and it sucks, but just try to draw comfort from the fact that you gave him a great life. That's the best any of us can hope for. *hugs*
    tmottes
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    caz said:

    Just lost my cat this morning to say they are not as conscious as us is simply wrong and Im glad they have finally come to this conclusion it was sad to see no light in his eyes this morning. :(

    I'm so sorry for your bereavement. it hurts as much as the loss of anyone dear, does,


  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    not only animals have conciousness

    they (specially pets) are our own relations or friends in their/our previous births :)
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I think there is a distinction between concious and self aware. There is something called the en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test where a mark is placed on the face of an animal and then they can look at themselves in a mirror, if they reach for the mark on their own face that is considered a sign of self awareness. Apes, dolphins, orcas, elephants and magpies have shown this trait. So I'd say that a dog or cat has conciousness but apparently not self awareness.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited August 2012
    Food for thought, but I think all the mirror test proves is the recognition/knowing that you're looking at a reflection. I think cats and dogs and other life-forms do know themselves from things that are not themselves... they just don't recognize the property of reflection nor do they know what they look like as reflected (they never see themselves that way in life experience). Anything they see in a mirror is going to seem as if it's something else. If they were intelligent enough to correlate their movements and the movements in the mirror, they'd know reflection. So it's really a matter of intelligence alone. There's no difference other than intellect.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    @caz....so sorry for your loss.
  • musicmusic
    What's the difference between awareness and self awareness?
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Well my cat had heard many Mantra's over the years so he has more positive causes then some humans I know. :)
  • OneLifeFormOneLifeForm Veteran
    Cloud said:

    Food for thought, but I think all the mirror test proves is the recognition/knowing that you're looking at a reflection. I think cats and dogs and other life-forms do know themselves from things that are not themselves... they just don't recognize the property of reflection nor do they know what they look like as reflected (they never see themselves that way in life experience). Anything they see in a mirror is going to seem as if it's something else. If they were intelligent enough to correlate their movements and the movements in the mirror, they'd know reflection. So it's really a matter of intelligence alone. There's no difference other than intellect.

    A cat may be intrigued for a little bit with a reflection in the mirror but eventually it will understand that it is simply that.

    My chickens found their reflection on my computer screen to be quite interesting and they were pecking at it so I put it away. Not sure what they would have done if I let them continue on.
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