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Right Livelihood

BunksBunks Australia Veteran
in Buddhism Basics
A buddhist teacher I know was giving me a hard time (somewhat jovially) the other day because I work in the superannuation (employee benefits (USA) / pension schemes (UK)) industry here in Australia.

Basically he was saying that it was funny that I worked in an industry that's objective was to enhance the wealth of people for retirement to death in this life and considered myself a buddhist!

Any thoughts / comments on this? I was in no way offended as I tend to agree with him. I've been thinking of changing industries anyway.

Happy for people to be brutally honest with me.

Comments

  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited October 2012
    So people should retire poor? That doesn't make any sense. I don't think I understand your job :lol:
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Change your teacher!
    Bunkssova
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I don't think there is a prohibition on wealth in Buddhism. I would suppose there is someone or other in the Suttas who was wealthy.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    lobster said:

    Change your teacher!

    He's not my teacher....

    lobster
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    I don't think there is a prohibition on wealth in Buddhism. I would suppose there is someone or other in the Suttas who was wealthy.

    Yeah, true.

    I heard a discussion on TV the other night about the statement in the Bible, something along the lines of "It is more likely that a camel can pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man get into heaven" - apparently some christians have interpreted that as "the eye of the needle" is the name of a gate in Jerusaleum(?) - the show was refuting this.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I might be dense, but I am a bit confused on exactly what was meant by "to death in this life"? It costs a lot of money to live for 20,30, 40 years without having a steady income, people definitely need guidance on how to do that. Like anything there can be better or worse ways to go about achieving the goal.
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Yeah, I heard that about the eye of the needle.

    I've also heard that scripture translated as prideful man rather than wealthy man, but I might be confusing it with the "blessed are the poor in spirit" and "blessed are the poor in pride" translations.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    You're not dense @karasti. It was my poor English.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    It doesn't hurt to examine your method of livelihood to see if it supports
    the precepts that you wish to live by. I don't think I heard that teacher suggesting you do anything more than that.
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Those rich in unawareness are impoverished by external wealth.
    Those mindful of their riches find the setting immaterial.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Bunks said:

    A buddhist teacher I know was giving me a hard time (somewhat jovially) the other day because I work in the superannuation (employee benefits (USA) / pension schemes (UK)) industry here in Australia.

    Basically he was saying that it was funny that I worked in an industry that's objective was to enhance the wealth of people for retirement to death in this life and considered myself a buddhist!

    Any thoughts / comments on this? I was in no way offended as I tend to agree with him. I've been thinking of changing industries anyway.

    Happy for people to be brutally honest with me.

    I think he might have been pulling your chain a bit ;)
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    RebeccaS said:

    Yeah, I heard that about the eye of the needle.

    I've also heard that scripture translated as prideful man rather than wealthy man, but I might be confusing it with the "blessed are the poor in spirit" and "blessed are the poor in pride" translations.

    I think the statement has to do with not sharing the wealth.

    @Bunks;

    I don't think I quite understand your job either... It sounds to me like you help retired people with finances. It isn't a get richer, quicker scheme is it?

  • JohnGJohnG Veteran
    Well If I could be a cop, then what's wrong with your proffession? It's up to those who use your service that is responsable for what they use their finances for; if it's personal wealth at all cost, then Karma will be the finale judge on what will be next.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited October 2012
    I think this teacher needs to look up Right Livelihood, @Bunks

    http://buddhism.about.com/od/theeightfoldpath/a/rightlivelihood.htm
    In the Vanijja Sutta (this is from the Sutra-pitaka of the Tripitaka), the Buddha said, "A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison."
    "To practice Right Livelihood (samyag ajiva), you have to find a way to earn your living without transgressing your ideals of love and compassion. The way you support yourself can be an expression of your deepest self, or it can be a source of suffering for you and others. " ... Our vocation can nourish our understanding and compassion, or erode them. We should be awake to the consequences, far and near, of the way we earn our living." (Thich Nhat Hanh, The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching [Parallax Press, 1998], p. 104)
    But I'm not entirely sure that I understand what is involved with your job... Does your job seem to violate the above examples?
    RebeccaS
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    What does business in human beings mean? Was he talking about slaves, or is customer service out the window, too?
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    @RebeccaS Yes, he meant the slave trade, lol.
    RebeccaS
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    Right livelihood means not harming others.
    I cannot see how retirement monies harm others.
    Just who is being harmed by the work that you do?

    Right livelihood does not mean that you are supposed to expect the rest of the world to think like Buddhists do.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    No no! It's nothing dodgy.

    In Australia it's compulsory for an employer to pay 9% of an employees salary into a superannuation fund.

    That's the industry I'm in.

    Thanks for all the feedback people.
  • MetallicaMetallica
    There are alot of people claiming they are "Buddhist teachers". Whats this person like?

    It's not un-right livelihood to work for the goverment. Unless your from the torture and interrigation department.
    Bunks
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Metallica said:

    There are alot of people claiming they are "Buddhist teachers". Whats this person like?

    It's not un-right livelihood to work for the goverment. Unless your from the torture and interrigation department.

    I was probably being a little generous calling him a teacher. He just takes the odd class when a monk is away.

  • MetallicaMetallica
    There all these so called sangha groups all over Australia. What sort of group is it?
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    Bunks said:

    Metallica said:

    There are alot of people claiming they are "Buddhist teachers". Whats this person like?

    It's not un-right livelihood to work for the goverment. Unless your from the torture and interrigation department.

    I was probably being a little generous calling him a teacher. He just takes the odd class when a monk is away.

    This makes a lot of sense, I've definitely been in similar situations before. So, moral of the story... relax. :) Nobody wants to starve when they're old so I would think that your job is a necessary and helpful industry to be in.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Funnily enough, the article below pops up just days after I start this thread.

    I don't work in the investment side of things mind you. More the IT / back office area.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-31/kohler-australia-super-disgrace/4343108
  • lamaramadingdonglamaramadingdong Veteran
    Bunks said:

    Funnily enough, the article below pops up just days after I start this thread.

    I don't work in the investment side of things mind you. More the IT / back office area.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-31/kohler-australia-super-disgrace/4343108

    The key to happiness- count on nothing.
    Bunks
  • SilouanSilouan Veteran
    That fact is we will always displace beings in a negative manner as part of our existence, but we work to minimize it. Also, it is the love of money that is called the root of evil not money.
    lillymac61
  • lillymac61lillymac61 Explorer
    @Bunks, perhaps he is referring to the folly of accumulating money as a symptom of insecurity, which is something that we all live with because we are subject to the changes of cause and effect, our future is unknowable. Having said that, after retirement we must fend for ourselves so creating a nest egg makes good sense. I agree with others, he was probably having a go at you. It's not for you to judge your clients motives anyway. On changing industries: even before I started following the path I realised working in advertising was not a Right Livelihood for me. I felt like I was participating in an industry which ran on lies and deception and preyed on peoples insecurities. One day you'll recognise what you are doing is unsustainable and you'll move on. Good luck!
    Bunks
  • lillymac61lillymac61 Explorer
    Silouan said:

    Also, it is the love of money that is called the root of evil not money.

    @Silouan, right on!
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    lillymac61 said:

    @Bunks, perhaps he is referring to the folly of accumulating money as a symptom of insecurity, which is something that we all live with because we are subject to the changes of cause and effect, our future is unknowable. Having said that, after retirement we must fend for ourselves so creating a nest egg makes good sense. I agree with others, he was probably having a go at you. It's not for you to judge your clients motives anyway. On changing industries: even before I started following the path I realised working in advertising was not a Right Livelihood for me. I felt like I was participating in an industry which ran on lies and deception and preyed on peoples insecurities. One day you'll recognise what you are doing is unsustainable and you'll move on. Good luck!

    Thanks @lillymac61. It's interesting that you worked in the advertising industry. I actually started a thread a little while ago on that exact topic!

    http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/297509/#Comment_297509
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