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The Truth

musicmusic
in Philosophy
Unconditioned consciousness ... that's our true nature.

Our present status ... conditioned by a million limitations. It is what Christians call 'fall from grace' - pure consciousness becoming conditioned. This is the meaning of the fall.

As long as we are in the body/mind/senses, we are going to be conditioned beings. And so fear, sorrow, anxiety etc. will persist. The only freedom is freedom from the body (and mind etc.). This is the truth. Anyone who believes in experiencing nibanna or some transcendental experience (while still in the body) is fooling themselves. Only mundane experiences are possible while in the body, since our consciousness is a prisoner of limiting adjuncts. You can't see infrared with your human eye. You can't experience transcendence with limited instruments like mind, intellect.

Hence, we have no option but to wait it out. This is the truth.

Comments

  • andyrobynandyrobyn Veteran
    Yes ... and No, IMO. There is much to be enjoyed in this life. It is also a wonderful opportunity to learn and practice throughout our days, to use our senses.
  • mfranzdorfmfranzdorf Veteran
    music said:

    Unconditioned consciousness ... that's our true nature.

    Our present status ... conditioned by a million limitations. It is what Christians call 'fall from grace' - pure consciousness becoming conditioned. This is the meaning of the fall.

    As long as we are in the body/mind/senses, we are going to be conditioned beings. And so fear, sorrow, anxiety etc. will persist. The only freedom is freedom from the body (and mind etc.). This is the truth. Anyone who believes in experiencing nibanna or some transcendental experience (while still in the body) is fooling themselves. Only mundane experiences are possible while in the body, since our consciousness is a prisoner of limiting adjuncts. You can't see infrared with your human eye. You can't experience transcendence with limited instruments like mind, intellect.

    Hence, we have no option but to wait it out. This is the truth.

    I disagree somewhat. I do agree that as a human living our daily lives, we won't be striding the earth in a state of nirvana 24/7. We are just too bound. However, I have been enlightened, no doubt about it. I have not strived for it, but it has happened. I went outside this morning and fed the woodpeckers that have been living in my tree. They thanked me for it. That's all I need. Anything else is a wish.
    Bunkslobster
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    edited December 2012
    @Music, here's a relevant quote from the Buddha... kinda contradicts your Truth a bit.
    I declare that it is in this fathom—
    long carcass, with its perceptions
    and thoughts, that there is the world, the
    origin of the world, the cessation of the
    world, and the path leading to the cessation of the world.

    (Anguttara Nikaya 4:45)
    lobster
  • RodrigoRodrigo São Paulo, Brazil Veteran
    edited December 2012
    You can't experience transcendence with limited instruments like mind, intellect.
    Let your mind go, then. ;)
    lobster
  • robotrobot Veteran
    music said:

    Unconditioned consciousness ... that's our true nature

    You can't experience transcendence with limited instruments like mind, intellect.

    Hence, we have no option but to wait it out. This is the truth.


    What do you imagine that you will experience transendence with?
    howlobster
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    I agree that the mind won't get you the whole way. But I don't think your body can hold you back. Otherwise, what's the point in having one in the first place? The body is merely a vehicle, a bag of meat. Consciousness supports the body, the body doesn't support the consciousness.
    mfranzdorf
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Practice.

    Don't fret and fumble and doubt.

    Just practice.

    And see what actually happens.
    lobster
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited December 2012
    till we are in human body and mind, only till then unconditioning of the conditioned mind is possible. Nirvana(in Buddhism) or Self-Realization(in Hinduism) or knowing our true nature - cannot be done after death, but only while living in the human body. But the only thing is that this spiritual path is travelled not in outside world, rather in our inside world.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    @music

    There is no "we" that fell from grace.
    What you call "we" is just a formulation of the 5 skandha's.
    Either this matrix of attachments is supported or it is let go.
    "We" is no more cohesive or individually eternal beyond death than it was before birth.
    Waiting for transcendence is like waiting to wake up when there was never a sleeper.
    lobster
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    music said:


    Only mundane experiences are possible while in the body, since our consciousness is a prisoner of limiting adjuncts.. You can't experience transcendence with limited instruments like mind, intellect.

    And yet, the Buddha did experience transcendence, and made the effort to show others how they could, too. I guess he was lying, and leading others on a wild goose chase? This is only the truth as you see it.

    I can't help but notice a depressive tone throughout your OP's, music. Are you ok?

  • musicmusic
    @Dakini, Buddha taught a way to be liberated from the cycle of birth and death. He did not say, 'follow these tricks, and you'll experience this or that state.' This is what new age gurus do. Buddha, otoh, was concerned with absolute freedom.
    Jeffrey
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    music said:


    Unconditioned consciousness ... that's our true nature.

    Hence, we have no option but to wait it out. This is the truth.

    If they are reciprocally dependent as your statement suggests, 'waiting it out' would be a crass definition of 'life'.
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    This is the truth.
    If you have found 'the truth', you can be sure it is a lie . . .
    . . . is that true enough . . .
  • FullCircleFullCircle Explorer
    I'm really tired but I'm gonna post anyway. I'm not very articulate nor feeling all politically correct n worried about hurting anyone's feelings so can I just say that Music you are a trip. Lol so you know the truth? Do you meditate? Have you seen beyond the mind? I see by another post of yours that you've actually already identified your problem- You are identified with your intellect. You are a thinker. And yes it's great to be smart etc but thinking and thinking and trying to figure it all out will Never get you anywhere. Many super intelligent people can't accept that they're IQ is of zero help in awakening- but it's Not! And when one isn't humble enough to accept that then they're stuck just forever thinking about it all. So good luck best wishes and much peace- but it'll never come from the thinking mind - and if you're a Christian didn't Jesus say be still and know? As in - meditate--- not think. Huge difference. Metta:)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2012
    Trungpa liked the name 'sitting bull' (the western indian) because it reminded him that we touch the base nature of the earth. We are in this one at our death. And then we go to another. Buddha touched the earth when Mara tempted him that enlightenment were not possible (or something like that).
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    music said:



    Anyone who believes in experiencing nibanna or some transcendental experience (while still in the body) is fooling themselves.

    are you sure?



    :)
  • DeepankarDeepankar
    edited January 2013
    Anyone who believes in experiencing nibanna or some transcendental experience (while still in the body) is fooling themselves.
    Agree to disagree your knowlege of the above. You are applying your own understanding of Christianity which may contempt of your own literature. There is alot to learn from Buddhism text to truly harness the Christianity faith in its truth as Buddhism has a very structured self, no self etc in an extremely awesomical philosophical explanatory to lead one into its truth. The experience of nibana and transcendental for many is not fooling itself, due to the truth of non dualism :D
  • FlorianFlorian Veteran
    Your view. music. seems to be that Buddhism is nonsense. Fair enough.

    But what do you think Jesus and Mohammed meant when they said 'die before your death'? One thing they must have meant is don't wait until it's too late, as you advise us to do. The quote from JamestheGiant makes it clear that for Buddhists it is here and now we need to make progress, and that waiting would be the same as giving up.

    As for the idea put forward above that if we think we find truth then we are fooling ourselves, this is only true if we have not actually found it. To say we cannot find it is to call ten thousand sages liars and cheats, and even some people here. What about Al-Halaj, who was crucified for claiming 'I am truth'. Another cheat and a liar? Or another person who reached the same place as everybody else who said the same?

    Besides, even if a pessimistic view of truth is correct then there would be no way to show it is correct. Buddhism is a claim about what is true and what is not, and if it is not based on knowledge it is useless. 'The Unknown is not the Unknowable', say the Upanishads. It would be impossible to show that this is not true, so anyone who claims otherwise is clearly guessing. I see no point in guessing.
    lobster
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