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Zen mudra

From what I've studied, the Buddha had his right hand over his left when in meditation (http://meditationtampa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/meditation-mudra.jpg). Why then do Zen practitioners teach us the reverse (left hand over right)? Is there any basis for this instruction?

Comments

  • I read somewhere that only the buddha can have it that way and that as we are learning we do it the other. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with right and left brains?
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    I'm sure someone will respond with an actual answer with historical evidence for tradition, but before they do... I'm just going to say... The question nearly sounds like a koan in itself. Maybe you're supposed to wonder about the mundra and then realize... oh, it's just a hand position...
    Lucy_BegoodInvincible_summerBeej
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    When I first read this I checked the way I placed my hands and found I've been putting the right hand on top for many years, no wonder I'm not enlightened yet! I checked here: http://www.wildmind.org/posture/hands and it says to put the right hand over the left, no excuses now.
    zombiegirl
  • Do it one way or another, but do it.
    Lucy_Begoodlobster
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    edited April 2013
    You require a degree of insight and ritual resonance to make use of mudra. Hand positions left on right or left on right can be dependent on gender and left/right brain dominance. Right on left feels more natural and at ease for me.



    I am currently doing Llahtong meditation as part of the online aro meditation course. Hands face down on thighs for this.
    Jeffrey
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2013
    That's (hands face down) the mudra milarepa used and is the one my sangha does. It's called touching the earth mudra also. It's on the knees though rather than the thighs come to think of it. I actually feel a better 'circuit' with it on my thighs though to be honest.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    I have heard that the right hand is below in zen because right side of the body is associated with left side of the brain, and the left side of the brain is responsible for conceptual thinking and in zazen we are putting conceptual thinking down. Or something like that. :)
    sova
  • I'm not sure exactly what, but it says something profound about the need for the mind to find some stimulation no matter what, that a bunch of bored Zen meditators managed to create an entire ritual language around the way we hold our hands during meditation.

    I mean, just how bored does someone have to be, before we start worrying about if the right hand should go above or below the left? I've been on meditation retreats where I have been exactly that bored out of my mind. Does holding the hands one way or another result in a different meditation experience? Not that I can tell, but then other meditators might have a different experience from me.
    riverflowInvincible_summer
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Does holding the hands one way or another result in a different meditation experience?
    For me very much so. For example in the complete 21 Tara puja, there are ritual muddra offerings to Tara of flowers, two types of water, perfume music etc.

    Hand positions can be very opening, or self containing. Sounds strange and for some it may just be ritualistic association . . .

    :wave:
    sova
  • I have found that I have learned to associate the muddra with deep relaxation found during zazen and use it all the time when needed- on the airplane, at a tense meeting, etc. Just by putting my hands in the position it instantly helps me calm.
    I find it very useful and don't stress about the deeper meanings of which hand is on top. Right hand on the bottom for me out of habit.
    zombiegirllobster
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    Cinorjer said:

    I'm not sure exactly what, but it says something profound about the need for the mind to find some stimulation no matter what, that a bunch of bored Zen meditators managed to create an entire ritual language around the way we hold our hands during meditation.

    I mean, just how bored does someone have to be, before we start worrying about if the right hand should go above or below the left? I've been on meditation retreats where I have been exactly that bored out of my mind. Does holding the hands one way or another result in a different meditation experience? Not that I can tell, but then other meditators might have a different experience from me.

    Honestly, I feel the same. The difference for me is that some are more comfortable and some are not... But I'm not claiming to be any sort of expert, so take that with a grain of salt...
    Cinorjer
  • Thanks for your inputs. I do realize that the difference is probably trivial, and I'm not so concerned about which is "right". I was just curious as to why Zen practitioners believe they should do something the Buddha didn't. Didn't the Buddha attain perfect enlightenment? Shouldn't he have known which hand position to use? On what authority do they believe their way of doing it is better? There's probably not an answer to this...perhaps it's just a cultural thing...I just thought someone might know the answer.
  • I have been told it that it is a sign of respect to the Buddha, in a way it is acknowledging that we are his students and not his equal.
    lobstersova
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    That's (hands face down) the mudra milarepa used and is the one my sangha does. It's called touching the earth mudra also. It's on the knees though rather than the thighs come to think of it. I actually feel a better 'circuit' with it on my thighs though to be honest.
    The yogic mudras are too open for me at present and yes from knees to thighs may make a difference.

    In the corpse pose (yoga), we are very open. I was taught a variation of crossing the feet at the ankle and grasping a wrist on the stomach that closes the energy and is more relaxing for some people.
    sova
  • Last week at a sangha meetup I thought I would do meditation with simply one palm over the other (left on top of right). In the past I've used the "cosmic" or traditional zen mudra. Sometimes being too self-conscious, I feel like there is a great deal of tension in my thumbs, so I thought I would try having just having relaxed open palms.

    The meditation lasted 30 minutes. Over the course of that time, my hands thumbs had gradually gone up and connected and my hands were in the cosmic mudra! Muscle memory I suppose.
    JeffreyInvincible_summersova
  • FlorianFlorian Veteran
    edited May 2013
    I thought it had to do with the giving and receiving of knowledge. Philip Kapleau talks about it in 'Three Pillars' but my memory has failed.
    sova
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    @riverflow - I've noticed that happens to me too. Zen brainwashing is what it is.

    riverflowsova
  • Yes its just muscle memory. Nothing more.
    riverflow
  • Often in Buddhist mudra the left and the right hands represent skillful means (compassion) and the active principle, wisdom and stillness, respectively. There is also an association with these qualities and female and male energy (so, descending from hindu thought, the female is active- in contrast to western thinking).

    I have often wondered about why one way here, and the other there, especially coming from a tibetan mahayana to a soto zen Sangha. I get it 'wrong' all the time. Sensei described the other day that tibetan mahayana emphasises compassion, so the left hands sits on the right, while zen tends to emphasise the wisdom aspect, so the right sits on the left (wisdom over compassion). I had not heard that reasoning before. I don't know about the 'compared to Buddha' line of reasoning though. Touching the thumbs emphasises the connection between the two- in the mudra this is above both (that might mean something if being on top is somehow better, as the above reasoning implies, of course, what would that be? Maybe what's underneath is the really important thing!)

    Either way, Bringing the hands together at the centre of the body embodies the centring and drawing in of the senses and the mind. Placing the hands together also represents the combination of wisdom and compassion which are the method and the fruit of awakening. Each supports the other. Both are essential. And it feels quite nice too.
    Invincible_summerperson
  • FlorianFlorian Veteran
    Thanks anterelic. Useful stuff. I've wondered about this for a while.

  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    Good thread!

    I've never educated myself on the various hand mudras and their meanings and effects. I've always held my hands in what has come to be a comforting position; in my lap in the Dhyana mudra.

    image
    sova
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    image

    Here is an unusual variation that arose this morning
    It is sometimes known as the bull or cow seat
    sova
  • anterelic said:

    Often in Buddhist mudra the left and the right hands represent skillful means (compassion) and the active principle, wisdom and stillness, respectively.

    I have often wondered about why one way here, and the other there, especially coming from a tibetan mahayana to a soto zen Sangha. I get it 'wrong' all the time. Sensei described the other day that tibetan mahayana emphasises compassion, so the left hands sits on the right, while zen tends to emphasise the wisdom aspect, so the right sits on the left (wisdom over compassion).

    Well this is embarrassing. I've gotten left and right confused in the above- if you swap them around it is truer: Left=wisdom, right=compassion; Zen = left resting on right.

    Apologies for the confusion (and for the somewhat pointless thread bump).

    I did say I get it wrong all the time.
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    @lobster i also have a shirt with a huge tiger face on it! +5 points :)

    bull seat is something I do to stretch the hamstrings, like knee over knee. Although to stretch I usually press gently on the knees. I'll try sitting with my hands on the feet like that. Thanks for the illustrative picture.
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