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But What is the cause for our monkey mind?

So its pretty obvious that theres a delusional idea of "self"...but why does our mind jump around from thought to thought so randomly all the time? What is the cause for this monkey mind? its roots?
ignorance?

Comments

  • BeejBeej Human Being Veteran
    Constant referencing?
  • Seems like constant referencing to "me myself I and mine", But where does that come from?
  • Craving and delight for sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch and ideas/thoughts/fantasies.
    riverflowInvincible_summer
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    From the Assutavā Sutta (emphasis mine):
    It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
    Because the sutta mentions "by day and by night," it almost sounds like it's suggesting the "monkey mind" is a natural process of being too caught up with our 'self' or with the mind. The sutta tells us that the Four Elements are constant, giving a more solid foundation to contemplate.

    Also note how the sutta talks about the "uninstructed run-of-the-mill person." So perhaps it's saying that more advanced meditators may very well be able to tackle the mind head-on (pun not intended), cultivating insight?
    Jeffreykarmablues
  • This seems to link up with the 12 links of arising. Is that correct?
    JeffreyriverflowInvincible_summer
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I think so @kashi
  • We think of the self as a permanent, stable, separate, independent and essential entity. Meditation is a way to see that everything (including what we take to be "self") is an impermanent, unstable, nonseparate (from any "other"), interdependent and relational entity. The contrast between these two perceptions can be shocking-- and the monkey mind is what especially reveals this contrast.

    Being deluded beings, we are often always this monkey mind, but because we are caught up in a whirlwind of activity, we rarely notice it. Meditation is a way of actually noticing that it has been there all along. Over time, observing the monkey mind (rather than indulging it or repressing it), we don't cling to the idea of the self (as a permanent, stable, separate, independent and essential entity), but learn to let go of it.
    kashikarmablueslobsterChrysalid
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    kashi said:

    So its pretty obvious that theres a delusional idea of "self"...but why does our mind jump around from thought to thought so randomly all the time? What is the cause for this monkey mind? its roots?
    ignorance?

    It's the natural quality of the mind. The left brain dominates, which is where the chatter comes from, unless discipline is introduced via meditation, as a way to still it. When the left brain is quiet, the intuitive qualities of the right brain come to the fore.

    A good book to read on this is: My Stroke of Insight, written by a neurologist who suffered a stroke that affected only her left brain. Fascinating stuff. The sense of oneness with everything comes from the right brain, too, she reports.

    riverflow
  • @karmablues
    Is that why the Buddha taught the meditation on the 32 parts of the body? If we understand the nature of body, the mind becomes dis-enchanted with form, due to its decay and passing away, therefore one less "branch" for this monkey to swing from, and then this would lead to the understanding of the links of arising in its entirety? or just certain aspects of co arising?
    pegembara
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Not only mind, but mental states are also not the self.
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    @karmablues - Thanks for the awesome reading of the sutta. I'm still new to reading them, and it's hard to wrap my head around the way they're translated/written most of the time.
  • BeejBeej Human Being Veteran

    Constant referencing?

    I guess i was actually describing "monkey mind" instead of actually diagnosing its cause. The cause is biologically derived from our brain wave functions <---- Monkeying around ----> ;)
    kashi
  • I know that monkeying around can get us in alot of trouble sometimes
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I think monkey mind is afraid of the space and stillness. It wants to fill it up with stuff. It's based on anxiety and suffering.
    BeejlobsterkashiStraight_Man
  • interesting jeffrey..maybe the monkey is afraid and trying to run...or heres a theory, maybe he keeps swinging from tree to tree because they are all banana trees, and he is trying to eat them all...and each banana is yet one more view/ attachment he clings to.
    riverflowlobsterkarmablues
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    The monkey mind can become very subtle, very refined. In Buddhism it is still bananas.

    Part of the reason we stop swinging, peeling and chest beating, is formal practice. Calming the ape. We begin to recognize our and consequently others monkey tricks. It allows us compassion for our family tree.

    Buddhism in essence is very simple. Animals are guided by instinct. Humans are often capable of rising above the animal. Buddhas are awake to the innate turmoil and have overcome its vagaries.

    If we watch our behaviour with the same discernment and 'objectivity'' we reserve for others we become aware of our monkey, human and Buddha Natures.

    Me Jane, You Tenzin
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenzin_Palmo
    kashi
  • footiamfootiam Veteran
    kashi said:

    So its pretty obvious that theres a delusional idea of "self"...but why does our mind jump around from thought to thought so randomly all the time? What is the cause for this monkey mind? its roots?
    ignorance?

    Yes, why, it is not even a frog. Could it be some chemicals in our body or what?
  • I have noticed when the monkey stuffs himself with bananas he gets very sick, stomach pain and suffers. And yet even when he is hunched over, full to his throat with bananas, offer him another, and he will stuff down that one as well.
    seeker242lobster
  • kashi said:

    @karmablues
    Is that why the Buddha taught the meditation on the 32 parts of the body? If we understand the nature of body, the mind becomes dis-enchanted with form, due to its decay and passing away, therefore one less "branch" for this monkey to swing from, and then this would lead to the understanding of the links of arising in its entirety? or just certain aspects of co arising?

    @kashi

    I normally associate the meditation on the parts of the body as a form of meditation on the unattractiveness of the body although I don't believe the realization of the body's unattractiveness would lead directly to insight on dependent origination. The purpose of this meditation seems merely to focus on becoming disenchanted with the body as a means to overcome the hindrance of sensual desire.

    As a form of contemplation on non-self, separating the 32 parts of the body can help us to negate the view of the body as one whole entity that embodies the self. We learn to see the body as a constituent of parts and that within each constituent part there cannot be something called the self. So you can look at hair and reflect, "Am I the hair?", then you can look at your nails and reflect, "Am I the nail?" and so on. In this way, I think we are supposed to reach a realization that since there is no "I" in any of the body's constituent parts, the whole body - made up of these constituent parts - also does not contain a self (and this conclusion would be further supported by reflection on the fact that the body is also merely a congregation of the four elements). Again, however, I don't see a direct link of this type of contemplation to the understanding of dependent origination.

    However, it appears that the Maha-satipatthana Sutta does say that mindfulness of the body (including the meditation on the parts of the body) can be used as a basis for meditation on dependent origination leading eventually to full release. Thanissaro Bhikkhu gives an explanation about it here (see the introductory section)

    lobsterkashiInvincible_summer
  • jlljll Veteran
    This is what ajahn brahm said.

  • Thanks for that, @jll. Very entertaining. Different kind of monkey mind, maybe. :)
  • footiam said:


    Yes, why, it is not even a frog. Could it be some chemicals in our body or what?

    Pretty much. The mind operates by a sort of feedback loop, if it's not getting input from a sense, say vision, to base it's operations on then it has to generate it's own input. You can't eliminate the monkey mind, if you did so you'd lose conscious awareness, instead meditation focuses the mind on something specific so that it's not forced to generate random input to keep the thought process flowing.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited May 2013
    kashi said:

    So its pretty obvious that theres a delusional idea of "self"...but why does our mind jump around from thought to thought so randomly all the time? What is the cause for this monkey mind? its roots?
    ignorance?

    A few thoughts on the subject.

    Have you observed your own mind in action? The mind is a series of processes all working together that in Buddhism is called the skandhas. One of those processes is "consciousness". This doesn't just mean being awake. It's awareness. The focus of your attention. You are reading this and focused on it right now. Your consciousness has settled on these words and the act of reading through your eyesight to focus your awareness on.

    But emotion is also a skandha, and a thought pops into your mind about something that happened at work today because you're worried and stressed about it and your emotions keep insisting your mind does something to solve the problem. So the consciousness is dragged along and you lose the thread of this message and have to go back and figure out where you left off. And habits are also one of the skandhas and you keep checking the clock because it's almost time for the kids to come home from school, and your consciousness is once again dragged back and forth. And finally, form is also one of the skandhas and your stomach tells your brain that you're hungry and the mind is once again dragged along into thinking about what to do for supper.

    It's the way your mind works, that's all. You can teach it to ignore the constant demands for our attention by training the consciousness part of it to focus on the here and now, but that doesn't eliminate the other parts of the mind which are still there and working away, trying to keep us alive. And in some cases we don't want to eliminate this shifting attention span. The awareness of the mind has a default scan mode built in by evolution because you don't want that lion to sneak up on you while you're trying to get a drink of water. In today's world, you don't want that speeding car arriving from the left to slam into you at the intersection because you're focused on the light turning from red to green.

    On the other hand, not being able to concentrate on one thing for very long even has a name now in psychiatry: Attention deficit disorder.
    kashiInvincible_summer
  • Ive read about the skandhas in the nikayas a number of times and from what I recall The Buddha always gave 5 examples. Is it only 5 or is it all defilements in their totality?? What do the skandhas become if one is enlightend?
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    kashi said:

    Ive read about the skandhas in the nikayas a number of times and from what I recall The Buddha always gave 5 examples. Is it only 5 or is it all defilements in their totality?? What do the skandhas become if one is enlightend?

    Well, I guess the answer depends on your tradition. While there are 5 skandhas talked about in the sutras, the Theravadan school goes on to further define the mind by defilements and consciousnesses and senses, etc. For my own Mahayana tradition, it's enough that we penetrate to the ultimate emptiness of the skandhas and thus realize the mind itself has no independent existence.

    As to what happens to the skandhas when one is enlightened, to me that's like asking what happens to your mind. It's still there. You don't lose your memories or emotions or such. A Theravadan would probably have a different answer.


  • Cinorjer said:

    kashi said:

    Ive read about the skandhas in the nikayas a number of times and from what I recall The Buddha always gave 5 examples. Is it only 5 or is it all defilements in their totality?? What do the skandhas become if one is enlightend?

    Well, I guess the answer depends on your tradition. While there are 5 skandhas talked about in the sutras, the Theravadan school goes on to further define the mind by defilements and consciousnesses and senses, etc. For my own Mahayana tradition, it's enough that we penetrate to the ultimate emptiness of the skandhas and thus realize the mind itself has no independent existence.

    As to what happens to the skandhas when one is enlightened, to me that's like asking what happens to your mind. It's still there. You don't lose your memories or emotions or such. A Theravadan would probably have a different answer.


    Thanks for the response and insight. Theravada or mahayana its still insightful

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Form -> ethics
    feeling -> concentration
    perception -> wisdom
    formations -> liberation
    consciousness -> knowledge of liberation
  • kashi said:

    Ive read about the skandhas in the nikayas a number of times and from what I recall The Buddha always gave 5 examples. Is it only 5 or is it all defilements in their totality?? What do the skandhas become if one is enlightend?

    Answering from a Theravadin perspective, though I am not really a Theravadin, all conditioned phenomena can be analyzed in terms of the five skandhas. It is a gloss on the early phases of dependent origination. From Wings to Awakening:

    The five aggregates are form, feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness. These five categories cover the entire range of experience that can be adequately described...

    The five aggregates, on their own, do not constitute suffering or stress. They are stressful only when functioning as objects of clinging/sustenance....

    MN 44 [MFU, pp. 44-45] makes the point that the act of clinging is neither the same as the aggregates nor entirely separate from them. If clinging were identical with the aggregates, there would be no way to experience the aggregates without clinging, and thus there would be no way for an awakened person to return to the conditioned level of experience after Awakening. If clinging and the aggregates were totally separate, clinging could exist independently of the aggregates and would count as a separate part of describable experience. If this were so, the transcending of the aggregates at the moment of Awakening would not constitute the transcending of the fabricated realm, and thus the task of comprehending suffering would not yet be finished....

    What this interdependence means in practical terms is that one must examine the aggregates in such a way as to realize fully that they are not worth clinging to. One does this by focusing on two of their common characteristics: their instability and their complexity.

    Observing and understanding the complex interrelationships among feeling, perception, and consciousness leads one into the area of dependent co-arising, which forms the essence of the second truth. As one's understanding grows more sensitive, it drives home the point that all clinging to these interrelated phenomena should be abandoned. This understanding — that phenomena taking part in such relationships are unworthy of clinging — forms the essence of the path. The full pursuit of this path, in which one abandons all passion and desire for the five aggregates, brings about knowledge of the cessation of stress.

    Cinorjerkashi
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