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Kill the Buddha

kashikashi
in Philosophy
http://www.ordinarymind.com/html/kill_the_buddha.html when I first came to zen this idea was too perplexing. When I came to theravada this idea seemed blasphemy. ..now that im open minded to both types of practice it makes sense.

Comments

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Open minded eh?
    Be careful the Buddha does not fall out. ;)

    I never meet someone who requires being born, let alone killing, grilling or filling.

    As I said to the Buddha only this morning - 'you again?'

    Good thing no one was listening. :wave:
    BeejMigyur
  • kashikashi
    I really read your comment about 6 times and I honestly don't know what your saying
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    I think our crustacean friend is essentially saying that we're all Buddhas and always were Buddhas, so don't kill yourself. :skeptic:
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    Maybe Lobster will become a Pratyekabuddha / Paccekabuddha.
    That is, a fully enlightened Buddha, but unable to communicate it to others! :D:p
    lobsterriverflowpersonSillyPutty
  • kashikashi
    @Nevermind it does seem it's what he is trying to say... is this correct lobster?
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    . . . a fully enlightened Buddha, but unable to communicate it to others
    Get behind me Buddha!

    How to convey or kill our existing internal fantasy z z z Buddhas?

    You can not kill the awakening because it does not meet us on the road. It is the road. You can not communicate it because that would be thing and it is no thing . . .

    Let me put it another way . . .

    If you meet road kill - say, 'Yo Buddha, my man . . .'
    but not in so many words . . .
    riverflowmfranzdorfBeej
  • kashikashi
    Perhaps the "killing " is to destroy all concepts so one does not cling to "buddha" ...such as the idea of raft that takes us to the other shore. Let go of the raft.
    federicariverflowmfranzdorf
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    In one sense, it is all Buddha Mind. All Nirvana. All empty. All filling.

    It is also samsara.

    What are we to kill?
    riverflowmfranzdorfBeej
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Ironically, if anyones thinking about killing Buddhas they are breathing life into that part of the narrative.
    lobsterriverflow
  • John_SpencerJohn_Spencer Veteran
    edited May 2013
    Hey, @kashi - I think it means if you 'meet' the Buddha (ie fully 'meet' with him) He is no longer the Buddha - you are.
  • kashikashi
    Hmmm...that makes sense too
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    So many Buddhas, such little time?

    “Moral concepts practiced without understanding can be the greatest of obstacles to fulfilling the Bodhisattva’s vow of uncompromising compassion. Do not cultivate virtue and renounce vice. Rather, learn to accept all things as they arise. Penetrate the essence of each experience until you have achieved the one taste.”
    Mahasiddha Gandrapa
    http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/buddhas-dharma/vajradhara-and-84-mahasiddhas.html

  • mfranzdorfmfranzdorf Veteran
    This is the kind of discussion that keeps me coming back here. Sometimes this path leaves me frustrated. Today is not one of those days.
    Beejkashi
  • kashikashi
    edited May 2013
    I'm happy I can keep some people thinking outside the box.. ..as they say
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    John_Spencer said:

    Hey, @kashi - I think it means if you 'meet' the Buddha (ie fully 'meet' with him) He is no longer the Buddha - you are.

    Ah, Linji. His style of teaching seemed to be, "slap the crap out of the student to knock some sense into him". He was known for using the ever-present fly-whisk he always had in his hand to smack anyone who dared to ask him a question about Zen. It was he that most effectively spread the image of the Zen Master striking and shouting and smacking the student around to shock them into sudden enlightenment. I can imagine the bruises on the shoulders of his students and how they learned to cringe every time he raised that damned fly-whisk for another teaching moment.

    The actual passage in the Renzai record is this:

    Followers of the Way of Zen, if you want to get the kind of understanding that accords with the Dharma, never be misled by others. Whether you're facing inward or facing outward, whatever you meet up with, just kill it! If you meet a buddha, kill the buddha. If you meet a patriarch, kill the patriarch. If you meet an arhat, kill the arhat. If you meet your parents, kill your parents. If you meet your kinfolk, kill your kinfolk. Then for the first time you will gain emancipation, will not be entangled with things, will pass freely anywhere you wish to go.

    What could the old fart mean by this violent call to mass murder? It is shocking. You wanted peace and tranquility and the secret to enlightenment and he just...hauled off and gave you a smack on your mind...almost as if he's standing in front of you with that gleam in his eye, holding that fly-whisk.

    Linji's mind just hit your mind with his stick, from across a thousand years and half a world. All we can do is continue to bow and thank him for the teaching.

    lobster
  • kashikashi
    Question...
    If you fully meet the buddha, then he is no longer buddha because I am buddha, would I not instantly be not buddha too? my being buddha, does not take away the fact that buddha is buddha, and if he and I are buddha, then...who is to kill?
    riverflow
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    kashi said:

    Question...
    If you fully meet the buddha, then he is no longer buddha because I am buddha, would I not instantly be not buddha too? my being buddha, does not take away the fact that buddha is buddha, and if he and I are buddha, then...who is to kill?

    The reified self (the illusory self) and the concepts to which it cling are really the same "thing." In a sense, the self *IS* chasing-after/aversion. In that sense also, the self *IS* dukkha. Who is "killed" is the self clinging to a concept of Buddha (awakening). Awakening is not a concept nor can it be conceptualised. But you have to start somewhere, so you start with concepts. But the concepts must be let go of eventually.

    In killing the Buddha, the concepts of awakening, self, clinging, aversion, dukkha all are delusions. This is why the Heart Sutra APPEARS to negate the very foundation of Buddhism-- what it negates is the concepts which are initially needed.

    The recipe for a cake contain the instructions for baking a cake-- the recipe doesn't contain the cake and reading the recipe over and over again won't make a cake miraculously appear. We have to follow the instructions to bake our own cake. But then the recipe has served its purpose, because now you have that cake. The Buddhadharma is all upaya, skillful means in order to awaken. If we cling to the recipe, we won't be able to make the cake.

    [Apologies for the bizarre analogy haha]

    kashiJohn_Spencermfranzdorflobster
  • John_SpencerJohn_Spencer Veteran
    ..and when you have made the cake - put down the recipe.
    riverflowkashilobster
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    John_Spencer said:

    ..and when you have made the cake - put down the recipe.

    AND EAT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    kashiJohn_Spencerlobster
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    I want some chocolate cake now.
    kashi
  • kashikashi
    damn..me too
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    Walking across the street to the hospital cafeteria to get a slice now. I'll let you know if I meet any Buddhas by the side of the road!
  • John_SpencerJohn_Spencer Veteran
    ...so this non-attachment thing is going well then?
  • kashikashi
    I wonder what the historical buddha would actually say about this topic. In the pali cannon one sure fire way to be reborn in hell is to do anything harmful to buddha...but obviously this is not to be taken in the literal context of killing.
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    John_Spencer said:

    ...so this non-attachment thing is going well then?

    Its a part of my digestive tract now. Cake and I are now one. No attachment now!!
    John_Spencermfranzdorf
  • John_SpencerJohn_Spencer Veteran
    ...until the next cake.
    riverflow
  • John_SpencerJohn_Spencer Veteran
    We could start a new cake-based belief system!
    riverflowkashi
  • kashikashi
    @John_Spencer
    Im down with that if cookies and brownies are part of the deal
    John_Spencerriverflow
  • MigyurMigyur Norway N 69,23 E 18,23 Explorer
    @Kashi I heard this the first time in a lecture from Osho In the late 80th.
    "If you meet Buddha on your way cut him down, if you met Mahavir on your way cut him down and if you met Jesus Christ , than Jesus Christ."
    in this lecture it was pointed out that you have to find "your" Buddhanature inside you. Do not copy anybody and search inside yourself not in the outer world.
    Maybe this is the history behind this saying
    riverflowkashiJeffrey
  • kashikashi
    @Migyur
    everything ive been reading and hearing on this subject seems to be pointing at that
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