Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Mindfulness is NOT enough
betaboy
Veteran
in Philosophy
Most people have the wrong idea that mindfulness is an end in itself. It is not. We become mindful in order to change things. Without being mindful of my flaw, say envy, I wouldn't be able to change that. So change is the issue, not mindfulness. How does change come about?
Here's where disagreements crop up - some might say mindfulness itself is an agent of change, while others may say that change is an act of will. I go with the latter. We make the effort to change, we fail, we make the effort ... and so it goes. Eventually, we will succeed, but it is an act of will. Mindfulness plays a small role, if any.
Discuss.
Here's where disagreements crop up - some might say mindfulness itself is an agent of change, while others may say that change is an act of will. I go with the latter. We make the effort to change, we fail, we make the effort ... and so it goes. Eventually, we will succeed, but it is an act of will. Mindfulness plays a small role, if any.
Discuss.
1
Comments
Let's investigate what each of us means by mindfulness...
I'm guessing this is about the mindfulness movement, which typically emphasizes developing a meditative, mindful practice, but doesn't entail the B word (Buddha), nor much of anything else? (i.e. usually no ethical system, no talk about karma or rebirth, etc)
I've been on the 1 fold path of wisdom for two decades, also known as reading books from the Buddhist section of the bookstore. Recently I finally started meditating a few times a week. It's worked for me, no way I would have signed up for a program to do it all on day one.
It's important to realize that everyone has to start somewhere and if you expect others or yourself to do all practices on day one, it won't necessarily be motivating or enticing to others. There is a reason why single practice Buddhism became so popular in the Kamakura era and why mindfulness is such a big deal in the west at the moment.
Providing it's equally balanced with the other 7 'virtues'.........
Should I start a new thread about what *we* think of when we say *mindfulness*?
I did not say the sense gates were hindered, just their data input.
The manipulator of that input is Ego, identity or whatever you want to call that which keeps us in a delusive snooze..
Indeed, mindfulness can play a very insignificant role in acts of will. No arguments there!
If a person begins practicing Buddhism to change themselves into a new and improved person, then mindfulness can only get you so far.
*****tongue removed from cheek*****
When I was very young, in my twenties and earlier, all of my intention was focused upon 'becoming'. Mindfulness served Will. Maybe that was appropriate; we are conditioned psychologically to 'become' someone by both native instinct and the culture we are born into. But there is a natural conflict between the Buddha's central teachings and the imperative of 'becoming' someone, which we are intent to do until . . .
Until you get to be my age and older. I did the 'becoming' thing, and now, just like Carl Jung said a hundred years ago, I'm working just as hard as I did then to take it all back apart! Jung once said in a letter to someone "If a gentleman over the age of 45 comes to me for analysis, and I discover he is a devout Catholic, I tell him he does not need analysis but to further pursue his Catholicism. If a gentleman over the age of 45 comes to me and has no religious tradition, I invite him into analysis because he has no religion."
The first and last half of life have different demands, and I can't help but opine that Buddhist practice will not look the same to a twenty two year old as it does to a 48 year old. Neither is 'wrong', probably, but when I first read Betaboy's post I wanted to copy, paste and link my favorite sources describing 'mindfulness', you know, to edumacate the young lad
I'm not looking forward anymore to 'becoming' an improved potential of myself. I did that, and it was interesting, full of adventure, I reproduced a male and female offspring and have the unparalleled pleasure of a grandchild.
I want to take it all off, to get to the Source, the Truth, the Absolute, because that's where I'm going. Rather, that's where I am, always have been, I was just too busy building my sand castle, you know? I needed to explore the limits of this genome, this environment, this karma. And now . . .
Mindfulness breaks Will like Rock breaks Scissors in the last half of my life, anyway.
Does anyone else over the age of mid-forty-something relate?
Thanks for your post @Betaboy
Gassho
... If a novice applies himself to the practice of [this] ... exercise, he will see that his everyday actions become harmonious, graceful, and measured. Mindfulness becomes visible in his actions and speech. When any action is placed in the light of mindfulness, the body and mind become relaxed, peaceful, and joyful. [This] ... exercise is one to be used day and night throughout one's entire life.
Thich Nhat Hanh
That idea promotes self cherishing and the desire which rises from self grasping is the source of suffering. So yes mindfulness is not the goal. Realization is. However, it is just about impossible to see past the delusion of discursive thought. Without mindfulness we are like a man in a foreign country. We can't even ask for food or water
and we can't hear the native when he tells us where to go. So first we have to understand the chatter and move through the clutter of our own mind. That takes mindfulness. Then we can look to the generation and completion stages and start Lamrim.
So mindfulness is just a tool but a necessary tool and meditation is just a tool but it is what the Buddha showed us (Vipassana), as the way to enlightenment.
I appreciate your input. You are stimulating. MTGBY
Does anyone else over the age of mid-forty-something relate?
I agree. I don't practice at 66 as I did at 18 or 25. At eighteen I searched at 25 I meditated. At 66 I take the path as meditation and that is pretty informal. I haven't done formal meditation for years...however I'm always pretty mindful so I take the path.
I really liked the Ah of compassion, night practice. It helped me develop pristine cognition. I don't take myself seriously anymore. My death seems inconsequential and my further enlightenment seems unimportant. I mostly want to be a better guide and helper to those around me-I love this group. But sometimes I fondly remember fireflies and the melting bliss and I tell myself, I'll get back to that sometime. But then, that just seems far away and a little selfish. Things do change. But I love life and I will miss the light so I keep my thoughts pure and work hard to do right action. Someday I'll experience Bliss again and then I'll remember to dwell on emptiness. I'm pretty lucky because I love my life and my family and I am comfortable. I have time to work at what I love too. mtgby
Food for thought.
Why do people choose to be unconscious? Because they are turning away from the present moment for one reason or another. Perhaps their situation or even their life doesn't match up to the list of shoulds they identify with. So instead of savouring this moment they live in the past, when they felt happy/rich/loved or whatever, or else in an imaginary future when they will be happy/rich/loved or whatever.
Without mindfulness everything is delusion.
@betaboy: You may need others' help, but accepting you are drinking too much is the first important step. Whether you can conquer the addiction depends on many things, but you will certainly not conquer it without the awareness that you have a problem.
What steps will you choose to do if you're not aware in the first place? Sounds to me like one can't expect action before mindfulness- nor without mindfulness.
Good Luck @betaboy. Remember, One Day At A Time...
"Often the word Sati is used with Sampajanna implied, they have to go together really."
If we're talking about the 8-fold path then in the suttas samadhi ( concentration ) is usually defined in terms of jhana, for which samatha is an important foundation.
And sati ( mindfulness ) is usually defined in terms of the 4 foundations of mindfulness, ie body, feeling, mind-state and mental objects.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html
The suttas are riddled with descriptions of jhanas and their necessity for liberation.