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Enlightened or not

bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
edited February 2014 in Buddhism Basics
When a person that keeps saying that they are enlightened
and says things that are in my opinion sometimes inscrutable to the point of stupidity when this person is trying to appear enlightened, the good thing for someone like that is i bet they find it a never ending source of amusement.

So what do you think are the characteristics of someone who is truly enlightened

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I couldn't possibly comment.
    lobsteranataman
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Knowing whether someone ELSE is enlightened means precisely nothing/squat/zip/zero/nada ... unless you are enlightened ... in which case the question wouldn't arise in the first place.

    Talk about "inscrutable to the point of stupidity!"
    bookwormEthan_McCune
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    karasti said:

    From what little I know and understand about enlightenment/awakened states, the person doesn't need to advertise or televise. Those who need to will recognize the inherent awakeness. No one else need apply, really. I don't think an enlightened person would feel it necessary to convince anyone.

    I am glad you said that without starting IMHO.

  • lamaramadingdonglamaramadingdong Veteran
    Enlightenment is assuming you're not.
    lobsterEthan_McCune
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    Never assume anything, as they say.
    bookwormEthan_McCune
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I've never met anyone who has said they were enlightened. How often does this come up?
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    No where but here. lol
    bookwormvinlynDandelionEthan_McCune
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    anataman said:

    No where but here. lol

    lol good one anataman
    anataman
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited February 2014
    Someone I can see as opposed to someone I can't.

    Now if we switched the word to awakened, I'd be stumped.
    anataman
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    The minute someone says that they are awakened, run away, runz far away.

    An awakened person will never say they are awake.
    bookwormanataman
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    It's happened here at least once, someone started a thread saying "I'm enlightened,I was wakened on X date. Ask me questions." and when he was told to just join in and contribute like anyone else, he never came back.
    lobsteranataman
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Jayantha said:

    The minute someone says that they are awakened, run away, runz far away.

    An awakened person will never say they are awake.

    I agree with your first statement.

    But didn't Buddha teach that he was enlightened?

    Jeffrey
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Jayantha said:

    The minute someone says that they are awakened, run away, runz far away.

    An awakened person will never say they are awake.

    I agree with your first statement.

    But didn't Buddha teach that he was enlightened?

    this is true, however his excuse would be that this is how he brought the dhamma to be known and practiced enough so that it would last beyond him. There would really be no good reason to proclaim it these days.
    bookwormanataman
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    lamaramadingdong said:

    Enlightenment is assuming you're not.

    xxx
    My new year resolution was to become unenlightened. ;)

    Where is that emptiness when it needs a form . . . and where is that enlightenment when it needs an emptying?

    What is that Mr Cushion? Nobody asks you?
    What would you say?
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Nothing I've read (which is a very small % of what is out there of course) said that Buddha walked around proclaiming he was enlightened, but more so when people would ask what/who he was, he said he was awake and they could be, too. He wasn't out there proclaiming and hawking himself.
    anataman
  • bookwormbookworm U.S.A. Veteran
    @karasti I was talking about people who keep bragging on the internet that they are enlightened and that made me wonder if an enlightened person would say that he or she is enlightend.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    bookworm said:

    @karasti I was talking about people who keep bragging on the internet that they are enlightened and that made me wonder if an enlightened person would say that he or she is enlightend.

    I wouldn't think so, no.

    But then, sometimes on forum we hear some that go on about how unenlightened they are... In a funny way, it's like a pat on the back.



    bookworm
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    bookworm said:

    @karasti I was talking about people who keep bragging on the internet that they are enlightened and that made me wonder if an enlightened person would say that he or she is enlightend.

    I became awakened today, about 6:30am.
    bookwormlobsteranatamanDharmaMcBum
  • wangchueywangchuey Veteran
    bookworm said:

    So what do you think are the characteristics of someone who is truly enlightened

    Unique is all i can think of. Like finding an oasis. A gift from nature.
    bookworm
  • betaboybetaboy Veteran
    There is no rule that an enlightened person cannot make a statement (reg. his enlightenment) on the internet.
  • ysmaelysmael Explorer
    being enlightened for me is knowing whether one is or is not and knowing the difference.
    lobster
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    Everybody wants to be a somebody
    Nobody knows how to be a nobody
    If ever there is a 'somebody'
    Who knows how to be a nobody
    Then that nobody is a real somebody.

    If you ever want to be a nobody
    Then follow that somebody
    Who already is a 'nobody'
    Later, let go of everybody
    Even that somebody
    Who already is a nobody
    Eventually, you will be a real nobody.


    Rev Acara Suvanno Maha Thero
    1921-11 March 2007
    In Memorial
    seeker242lobsteranatamanBunks
  • betaboybetaboy Veteran
    edited February 2014
    pegembara said:

    Everybody wants to be a somebody
    Nobody knows how to be a nobody
    If ever there is a 'somebody'
    Who knows how to be a nobody
    Then that nobody is a real somebody.

    If you ever want to be a nobody
    Then follow that somebody
    Who already is a 'nobody'
    Later, let go of everybody
    Even that somebody
    Who already is a nobody
    Eventually, you will be a real nobody.


    Rev Acara Suvanno Maha Thero
    1921-11 March 2007
    In Memorial

    Must have been an interesting trip.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    vinlyn said:

    I've never met anyone who has said they were enlightened. How often does this come up?

    We get it occasionally, on this forum. I had one about a month ago. Needless to say, the thread was dumped....

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    bookworm said:



    So what do you think are the characteristics of someone who is truly enlightened

    No greed, no hate, no ignorance. :)

    DairyLamapegembara
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    No greed, no hate, no ignorance.
    Perhaps. Perhaps not.

    No humanity? No flaws? No reality?
    Good luck with finding an enlightened teacher. No doubt you have one and no doubt he casts no shadow.

    Sometimes we need people who are awake sufficiently, rather than fantasy Buddhas.

    Let me put it another way:
    Is 'greed' for others progress just a subtle form of clinging?
    or hatred of ignorance, hateful?
    or no ignorance . . . an enlightened universe . . . godhood?

    and now back to fantasy enlightenment . . . :)
    anataman
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    and now back to fantasy enlightenment
    Sounds like a good game, a bit like 'fantasy football' how do you play it? Straight down the line, or over their heads.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited February 2014
    lobster said:

    No greed, no hate, no ignorance.
    Perhaps. Perhaps not.



    No perhaps about it. It's a classic description of Nibbana. Sure, finding somebody who is enlightened ( enough ) to teach us is a challenge, but that's a separate question.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    No perhaps
    Perhaps. Perhaps not.

    The question was about either/or
    in fact there is a third option and fourth.

    Neither one thing or another. Things are just that. However the 'condition' of enlightenment does not reside in or outside of imperfection, that would place it.

    Now where shall we limit it?
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    lobster said:

    No perhaps
    Perhaps. Perhaps not.


    I think you're fudging the question. The OP question was actually this: "So what do you think are the characteristics of someone who is truly enlightened?"

    "No greed, no hate, no ignorance" is both correct and succinct.
    bookworm
  • betaboybetaboy Veteran
    SpinyNorman said:

    lobster said:

    No perhaps
    Perhaps. Perhaps not.
    I think you're fudging the question. The OP question was actually this: "So what do you think are the characteristics of someone who is truly enlightened?"

    "No greed, no hate, no ignorance" is both correct and succinct.

    I can only agree with the 'no ignorance' part. Greed and other things may be due to force of habit rather than due to lack of enlightenment.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    You show your ignorance.
    Those are the three poisons or defilements, which keep us in 'dukkha'. Only by transcending these three, can one attain enlightenemnt. It's not an either/or matter.
    anatamanJeffrey
  • betaboybetaboy Veteran
    federica said:

    You show your ignorance.
    Those are the three poisons or defilements, which keep us in 'dukkha'. Only by transcending these three, can one attain enlightenemnt. It's not an either/or matter.

    A person could be enlightened and still be defiled by a few weaknesses. As long as the person is in the world, that's always a possibility. Even the buddha wasn't immune to it.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2014
    No.
    That's the whole point in being enlightened.
    An enlightened person cannot be defiled by ' a few weaknesses'.
    They can be exposed to the weaknesses of others and comment on them, but they themselves are beyond defilement.

    Where can you indicate that the Buddha wasn't immune to it\?

    Please give quotation, reference, and link.

    I'd be interested to know.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Another way to look at this..
    Enlightenment describes the manifestation of liberation
    whereas a person describes a manifestation of it's lack.
    Perhaps what I think of as enlightenment is really
    where that which defines what a person is..can no longer be found.
    anataman
  • betaboybetaboy Veteran
    federica said:

    No.
    That's the whole point in being enlightened.
    An enlightened person cannot be defiled by ' a few weaknesses'.
    They can be exposed to the weaknesses of others and comment on them, but they themselves are beyond defilement.

    Where can you indicate that the Buddha wasn't immune to it\?

    Please give quotation, reference, and link.

    I'd be interested to know.

    Trungpa was enlightened but he had his weaknesses. There were many others like him. Buddha wasn't exactly a believer in equality ... that's a flaw in his character, yet he was enlightened. Point is, an enlightened person is a human being and human beings have weaknesses. Doesn't mean he can't be enlightened ... enlightenment makes you wise, not necessarily strong.
    Tosh
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited February 2014
    betaboy said:

    Trungpa was enlightened but he had his weaknesses. There were many others like him.

    We're not talking about 'Trungpa' or 'others like him'. We're talking about the Buddha.
    Buddha wasn't exactly a believer in equality ... that's a flaw in his character,
    Ah. You're talking about his reluctance to accept women into the sangha? Yes, that's hotly disputed by Historians. Most people believe that to have been added subsequently, and after the buddha's death....
    yet he was enlightened. Point is, an enlightened person is a human being and human beings have weaknesses.
    before enlightenment, yes, I'd agree. After?
    I don't think so. They're just a mirror to the weaknesses in others....
    Doesn't mean he can't be enlightened ... enlightenment makes you wise, not necessarily strong.
    Enlightenment is an amalgam of Wisdom, Compassion and Moral fortitude. It makes you morally stronger than an unenlightened being.

    I really think I need these quotation/references links, please, as requested.
    it is not acceptable - certainly on this website - to make what may amount to spurious claims and not be able to back them up....
    bookworm
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    This is an interesting read/podcast by a bloke who may - or may not be enlightened:

    Buddhist Geeks:

    http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2012/07/bg-260-enlightenment-is-capable-of-endless-enlargement/

    To me, being enlightened sounds like optimal mental health. I think it would be nice if some kind enlightened folk talked about it some more; I'm sure it would help us with our motivation to practice.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Ah. You're talking about his reluctance to accept women into the sangha? Yes, that's hotly disputed by Historians. Most people believe that to have been added subsequently, and after the buddha's death....
    I think that can be a danger to cherry pick the dharma. Whatever is upsetting is a later addition and whatever is pleasing to the person is Better and More authentic than the other streams.
    anataman
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Tosh said:

    -To me, being enlightened sounds like optimal mental health. I think it would be nice if some kind enlightened folk talked about it some more; I'm sure it would help us with our motivation to practice.

    Optimal mental health or optimising mental stability is a good description. People do talk about it all the time . . .
    Enlightenment describes the manifestation of liberation
    whereas a person describes a manifestation of it's lack.
    Perhaps what I think of as enlightenment is really
    where that which defines what a person is..can no longer be found.
    The great problem is the paradoxes involved. Most of us need someone to teach us to be kind to ourselves to start with. You have to face yourself and you have to accept what is there. That is a hard truth. From that alone, compassion arises. In that constant facing we begin to know our nurture/nature/real being and in that process, bit by bit we move towards awakening. :wave:

    bookworm
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    betaboy said:


    A person could be enlightened and still be defiled by a few weaknesses.

    Sorry, but that's just plain wrong. Could I suggest you spend some time with basic Buddhist teachings?
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Sorry, but that's just plain wrong.
    It is?
    Perfect!

    SPEECH-SILENCE
    Chinese Chan master Yiduan (I-tuan, 9th century), a disciple of Nanquan, declared: “Speech is blasphemy! Silence is a lie! Above speech and silence, there is a way out.”
    http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/Zen_Humor.html
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    lobster said:


    Chinese Chan master Yiduan (I-tuan, 9th century), a disciple of Nanquan, declared: “Speech is blasphemy! Silence is a lie! Above speech and silence, there is a way out.”
    http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/Zen_Humor.html

    Intriguing! So what is above speech and silence? I would like to find the "way out". ;)
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    lobster said:


    The great problem is the paradoxes involved. Most of us need someone to teach us to be kind to ourselves to start with. You have to face yourself and you have to accept what is there. That is a hard truth. From that alone, compassion arises. In that constant facing we begin to know our nurture/nature/real being and in that process, bit by bit we move towards awakening. :wave:

    You make it sound simple (but not easy), Lobster. What's the method? The 8fold path?
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Tosh said:

    You make it sound simple (but not easy), Lobster. What's the method? The 8fold path?


    The easy questions first . . .
    There are two basic methodologies among spiritual paths. Top down and top up. Buddhism on the whole works on the top down method. Opening the enlightened being through the mind and subsequently developing 'right speech, right emotions, right body. Very loosely this is opening the top 'chakra' and then if prepared making rapid progress through the other chakras.
    The other method uses a gradual polishing, development of virtue, behaviour, aspects of the 8 fold path or other integrated change according to the tradition.
    This very roughly is how it works. You probably know all this. You have read the same things in so many different ways . . .
    In Sufism they start with the Heart, with Love. A mid range chakra . . .
    . . . However this is a Buddhist forum.
    The problem with premature or unprepared opening is you may need a butter meditation or similar . . .
    http://zentalks.blogspot.co.uk/2008/04/zen-sickness.html

    Do we actually want enlightenment or do we just like the idea? Because the truth is Nothing is in our way. It never has been . . .
    Maybe our efforts are half hearted? Maybe we like samsara, after all it is not so bad and sometimes quite nice thank you . . .
    Toshbookworm
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