Once tasting the sweet nectar of the Dharma, there's no going back........Or is there?
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Kia Ora,
Experience tells me I'm on the right track/path...In the conventional sense it's like "seeing is believing"...It's hard to imagine ever reverting back to how things were before the Dharma....It would be like lying to myself, trying to deny the truth that I've "experienced" ...There no wishful thinking on my part...Just experiential evidence...
I've read a few account of people who had been Buddhist practitioners for quite a number of years, then all of a sudden (midlife crises whatever) they become disenchanted with the Dharma and not only do they go back to their old ways or old religion they once belonged to, they become highly critical of Buddhist teachings...
Others might drift backwards and forwards on a raft made up of doubt (No doubt quite a few do this when testing the waters)
It's possible some just don't find the non theistic aspect of Buddhism that appealing -there's no safety net under the tightrope and they have to rely solely on the Dharma balancing pole(The Middle Way) for support which understandably can be a scary thing to contemplate...
There are some people whom for whatever reason just can't 'grasp' the essence of the teachings, but are for want of a better term 'more suited' to one of the Abrahamic religious beliefs or their own version of events...It would seem that the Dharma's not everybody's cup of chai ....
However the thing I'm interested in is how a person can after many years just drop the teachings and revert back to their old ways....
Do you think it is possible for a person who has "experienced" the Dharma to deny it (that is give up on the teachings)?
Or do you think they must never have 'truly' experienced it in the first place ?
I should point out, "each to their own" one size does not fit all, it is not judgement on my part, just curiosity...Whatever floats ones boat, floats ones boat...and I can only wish them a safe journey and that their boat don't capsize and sink...
Metta Shoshin . 
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Comments
Believers can move about, to and fro. Seers are less prone to wanderlust.
Yes, I've seen it happen. Sometimes people come up against things they can't or don't want to deal with. Sometimes they would just rather be doing other things.
Or do you think they must never have really 'truly' experienced it in the first place ?
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There is a third possibility: Denial through aversion, or reluctance to accept what is smacking them in the face with a dill pickle.
There is the person who turns away, or rejects the Dhamma outright, because they simply don't want to put in "The Work" required to implement the teachings; the thought of having to 'sacrifice' or 'let go' of the things they cling to, is such an abhorrence to them, they simply decide that they'll read and learn, but say that everything is just fine, and they don't need to do ~this~ for themselves.... it's fine, honestly....
Yeah. Right.
This is how it feels for me too.
You probably knew but... there is a point of no return on the path? Sotapatti? Which denotes a true deep understanding of the Dhamma.
Before that it is possible to turn away on different accounts.
/Victor
Hmm. I don't have anything to turn back TO.
Kia Ora,
Woo hoo...Just going with the flow... .
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Metta Shoshin .
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If in your experience the taste of Dharma is that of freedom then I don't think it possible to turn away. Once in never out.
It's like that for some people. For others it isn't.
It seems to me that if one is "properly" following most any religion, they will eventually be forced to face aspects of themselves that they are not comfortable with. However, Buddhism insists on it, and it is pretty much unavoidable. Other religions offer enough distractions that you can worry about (I'm going to protest against others getting abortions rather than deal with the fact that I have no relationship with my children) so that you don't have to face yourself.
Though in some cases, it's not the dharma itself they turn from but the trappings that some areas of Buddhism have. Rather than focus on the part where they are working on themselves, they focus on deities in the wrong way. Some were people who had bad experiences with false teachers which skewed their view of Buddhist. Much the same way my view of Christianity was skewed by the teachers and church leaders I experienced.
I imagine people go in (and thus out) for a lot of different reasons. Yoga is much the same. A lot of people in the US do yoga solely for the exercise aspect. One can hardly tell them they are doing it wrong, they are free to use it how they wish. However, they are missing aspects that make yoga what it is. Afterall, it means union and to lack that and bypass it entirely is to miss what yoga REALLY is. Same with a lot of other things, including Buddhism.
@karasti. BKS Iyengar passed just the other day. You no doubt already knew this.
I can speak from my own experience. First, Buddhism is hard work, as @federica pointed out. You have to do everything yourself, no savior figure to rely on (at least not in the form that I practice). For years I "knew" that Buddhism was more or less correct, but I didn't put much effort into practicing it. Now I know that no one else can do the work but me.
Another thing is, since Buddhism denies an intrinsic self-nature to things, this teaching can sometimes be somewhat offensive to the ego. If a person happens to be a little full of himself (who...me?), the ego may say, enough is enough, get me out of here! Give me a religion with an immortal soul or Atman, like Christianity or Vedanta. That way I can be spiritual and yet still view myself as separate and special compared to others. Anatman is just too radical an idea for a lot of people to swallow.
Others may find that in a crisis situation, the emotional nature of the Abrahamic religions may offer more comfort to them than the more cerebral Dharma. But that last one is just a guess of mine.
Basically I think the Dharma just suits some personalities better than others.
This is close to how I 'see' it for myself.
Encounter(s) with Dharma changed me into a person who could not or WOULD not turn back -- like I said, turn back to . . . what? There's nothing there anymore. Whatever I needed to operate in that 'reality' is gone, thanks to how my practice has changed the structures I identify as ''me''.
The only way to 'go back' is if those past structures remain intact.
In my experience, many of those past structures do not remain at all, I've lost my ability to see them or maybe I see through them, a good question actually.
Not everything, of course. I have plenty of stubborn selfing and drama machinery yet intact and functioning quite well :buck: .
But as a 'whole' . . . life before my current dedicated practice of over a year (meditation, sutta study, audio teaching, reading on a daily basis) is not something I think I COULD go back to, because, mainly, it does not exist.
Whether that has anything to do with 'improvements' I've made, I could not say though I hope it is 'improvements' that obscure my way back (not that I want to go!).
@ Shoshin
That is too dangerous a thread for me to comfortable tread.
There are just too many examples out there of experienced Buddhist practitioners, who seemed to think they were beyond falling...just before they did.
It is a good question.
The path is nothing to do with Buddhism. If you practice Yoga at a high enough level, it is dharma, the same with Taoism, Sufism, gnostic religion, freemasonry etc.
They are all different approaches to the path. The differences that seem huge, in essence are superficial. If you are a practitioner, you practice, study, change, orientate towards an ideal or truth . . . anything else is heedlessness.
As a beginner it is not unusual when monkey minded and lost, to flit and half heartedly be a seeker (though normally we are shirkers at this stage). As we progress into a path we realise what work is entailed.
Everyone is on the path to Buddhahood. However how many are practicing the dharma? The spiritual path is more than a name, form or hobby . . . I guess we all knew that . . . :buck: .
The mara's of doubt and arrogance lay clever snares and traps. To some they say "you are incapable" To others "Surely you need not worry"
For myself my practice has been immensely beneficial to my life, I have found a good road map for this journey. I personally have the truths of the teachings manifest for me in my life and feel if even if I dropped my practice, it has shaped my perspective to such a degree, I wouldn't even know what I would go back to.
I think it would be difficult to unrealize things
I knew somebody who'd been practising seriously for 20 years, they got to a certain point in their lives and just walked away from it all. These things do happen. It was a bit of a shock, I assumed they were a "lifer", like me.
Yes, but it's not that difficult to stop practising.
You can't unlearn what has been learnt. However, it can be abandoned.
My Roman Catholicism is a prime example. Having left this practice behind, I no longer adhere to its tenets and teachings - however, much of what Catholicism TEACHES, via its core values in Christianity, and what that really means, is worth holding on to....
For me seeing is believing.
I think that when you see something directly it becomes unshakable. That aspect anyway.
I guess people could easily leave the path, any excuse works right. Look at eating healthy or exercise. People KNOW they should do these. But don't for any reason.
I am sure the same as Buddhism, we know we should practice but don't.
For me so far, i can't stray too far from the path. I always end up back on. I feel so fortunate
Hope you guys feel this way too!
Interesting thread. I suppose I'm an example of someone who became disenchanted with Buddhism (after having been fairly gung-ho about it) and had to step away for awhile. What happened is that I ran into sticking points that I couldn't resolve, and became convinced that my views were not aligned fully with the dharma.
Specifically -- as I explored the goal of nirvana, I started to feel that it only makes sense given a belief in rebirth, and I didn't believe in rebirth. A second reason is that I felt the abandonment of tanha is too extreme a goal. Taming it, yes. Learning not to be driven by it, yes. But abandoning it altogether? I didn't see why. I like sensual pleasures. And if there's no next life, I'll be abandoning them eventually anyway.
I can't say I've resolved these issues fully. Nevertheless, here I am, looking into Buddhism again. The thing is, despite my objections, my encounter with the dharma brought a lot of good into my life. So I feel that perhaps it was not necessary to "throw the baby out with the bathwater", as we say -- though perhaps it was necessary to go away from it for awhile so I could come back with a different perspective.
I change my perspective often, without feeling the need to go away and then come back. That's what I find so refreshing about Buddhism. It doesn't constrict you.
@Lazy_eye If Nirvana is the cessation of suffering, and not something mystical or supernatural, then you don't need multiple-lifetime rebirth to make sense of it. Rebirth can be viewed as the continual re-arising of such things as ignorance, craving, suffering, and the false self... all in this very lifetime.
Where I've seen people go wrong is when they fail to identify Nirvana as the cessation of suffering. They turn it into something else, even some place else, and then have problems arise with that view. Rebirth isn't nearly as much of a problem!
If you need more support in viewing Buddhism in a naturalistic context, a few of us have recently discovered a Secular Buddhism forum (just Google that). I don't like the forum that much, compared to here (it's friendlier here), but it's available and they're certain to have a ton of knowledge. You can also PM me anytime you want (I'll help in whatever way I can; I'm not an expert).
If you stop doing the appropriate practices, I think it becomes rather easy to fall back into old ways.
I would say by stopping the practices, for whatever reason, and losing the wisdom they previously gained from those practices. But from my experience, it not something that happens suddenly. From my experience it's a gradual fall back into old ways. Sometimes so gradual that it's even difficult to notice it's happening!
I believe that there is something for almost everyone in the teachings but this should not imply it is for everyone. So persons may appear to fall away when they are moving in the direction for what is more meaningful to them.
Yes, I agree. I think that was part of the problem I ran into.
It's better, I think now, to begin by looking into the fact of dukkha, and then seeing the Buddhist path in terms of understanding the causes of dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. Nirvana isn't a somewhere else, as you say.
Thank you, Aldris.
I'm not sure that I'm dead-set on the dharma having to be "secular" -- but it's important to me that it makes sense within a naturalistic context. That is, if the truth-value of the dharma hinges on the a priori acceptance of supernatural concepts, then I think it would be a dubious path to pursue.
But I don't think that's actually the way Buddhism works -- rather it proceeds by inference. We see how the dharma applies in the here and now, and this enables us to develop the conviction that the Buddha is a reliable guide.
@Lazy_eye Yes, keeping in mind that a doctor may heal your wounds in this world and actually know nothing of the supernatural.
Our conviction should be in whatever teachings show themselves to alleviate suffering, and therein may the Buddha guide us.
...as well as wisdom found elsewhere.
I've experienced a lot of Dharma of my own making in the last year, & as i practised/trained it became perfectly obvious why the 8 fold path should be followed....In my opinion a person can turn back when ever they want to turn back, & i reckon most people turn back because it's hard work & they will start losing most of their friends....The reason being is that as my own standards & morals etc rose & became "firm & solid & unshakeable", i found that most other people i know had low standards & morals & we're very shakeable....Now I'm not one to judge anyone because i know that they just haven't learnt yet, & are still mind identified so they do have my empathy....I'm to busy to be talking about the T.V & celebrities etc, & that's what most people talk about these days....Another reason peeps turn back even though they know is because they we're probably expecting a sign maybe even from the Buddha himself, that their going to be "sorted" or "looked after" for all their good deeds etc, they never received one & so gave up....For me personally if the Buddha or Jesus etc gave me a clear message, that if i follow the 8 fold path etc i will be saved i would be very annoyed....The main reason i follow the "right" path in life is because hardly anyone in the UK is doing it, & it's easily the hardest path to follow....Their all mostly following desiring chasing fame fortune & possessions which will one day possess them, & don't even consider the starving kids around the world getting murdered....People support celebrities that get paid millions while kids are starving, & there's no way I'm going to end up a little ego wannabe worshipping a big massive ego celebrity because none of those people are real people their all ego's....In fact we're all technically ego's until there are no starving people in this world, & we're all technically aiding & abetting in the destruction of the planet.
What is that?
@Victorious
thank you malli, (may be putha?)
as soon as i finish the translation i will post it
kr
I disagree, perhaps. "Practice" is a paradigm, a world view (and that's only until even that is released).
It is not simply what you do on the cushion, it's a constant all day every day sort of thing. To stop practicing would be impossible until the final extinguishing (Nirvana).
I suppose a person could go to temple, meditate daily and do prostrations or such sorts of things and not have an internal connection or be IMPACTED by these activities -- thus, walking away and 'stopping'.
Not disagreeing with YOU per se, I don't know this guy or whoever you are talking about. As an alert human being with a history of practicing, I think I can say with some authority that if practice can be tossed aside like a shirt then it wasn't practice at all.
That sounds SO much like what I loathe hearing from others "If she really believed, which she didn't, she wouldn't have XXX".
It's not the same thing. Is it? I can't just stop practicing. Maybe I should just say that. I wouldn't even begin to know HOW to stop, much less for the life of me want to stop!
But like I said, people are different. There are many distractions and other things can get in the way. Have we built up enough momentum with our practice to see us through the distracting times? Hopefully we have, but we can't be sure until it happens.
When you say a person who has tasted the sweet nectar of the Dharma then i'm guessing you mean a stream entrant who has opened the his Dharma eye, if so then even if he gives up on the teachings and the practice, and loses faith and stops practicing it would be because he has lost faith in himself, and not because he lost faith in Buddha and his enlightenment, but it could be that maybe he feels that he is not capable of accomplishing the supreme goal in his present life, if so then even if he goes back to heedlessness, he would be incapable of doing anything evil in his life that would cause him to lose his attainment, because he has had a glimpse of the unconditioned and he knows for himself that there is a way out of this mass of suffering like the Buddha said there is.
Ahh..The invincible Dharma kool aid is making the rounds again.
Excuse me for daring to step on Superman's cape but I've seen enough long term monks spiritually face plant while fully believing in their own placement in the four stages of enlightenment, to think we've strayed into propaganda land.
The catch 22 is that anyone who turns away from their practice is always proving that they have never really progressed far enough enough along the path to have stopped that from happening. My moneys on the Buddha rolling his eyes at that number at this point.
Why is its OK to spout off that everything changes...until you try applying it to something sacred.
@how. You make a very valid point. Somehow the sacred is never to be the subject of an objective view. If I take your point correctly.
Kia Ora,
I guess somewhere along the line/path the ever present karma & merits(credits) will come into play...
(And we all know how frustrating it can be when we run out of credit on our mobiles) .
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Metta Shoshin .
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Honestly, I've been feeling a little disenchanted (or something) with Buddhism for a while now. I don't really know how to explain it other than I just feel sort of exhausted and alone. With all of these changes in my life, I'm just surrounded by people who mostly are either hardcore Christians or really odd pagans. (I say odd because they literally put hexes on people and while I have experience with Wiccans as kind people, they are not Wiccan and it is slightly unnerving. I also never knew what Santeria was until I moved here.) It's just so hard to see eye to eye with people who have no remorse for causing suffering to others and having conversations about it is so exhausting. I could never go back to Christianity or anything, but my practice is sort of non-existent these days.
Sometimes Buddhism just seems like a lot of work or something. I feel like I'm speaking Greek to people around me. I feel like my interests/hobbies don't always align with the concept of the ethereal "good Buddhist." I feel guilty about that and guilty that I can't just force myself to get down on that cushion... and let's be real, the scorpions in my house aren't the only reason I can't do this, although it sure serves as a decent/easy excuse.
I feel like I'm sort of making a last ditch effort at reviving my practice, but if it doesn't take, I don't know. I do know that Buddhism has been such a big part of my life for so long that it's more or less a part of me. I cannot abandon that much of the ideals, but I do think that perhaps I should stop thinking of myself as a "practicing Buddhist" and maybe just... I don't know... spiritual or something? Or maybe I'm just depressed, heh.
Kia Ora @zombiegirl,
It's possible you are going through this stage...
"Others might drift backwards and forwards on a raft made up of doubt (No doubt quite a few do this when testing the waters)"
Sorry to hear you're on a bit of a downer, but remember "This to shall pass!"
Metta Shoshin .
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@zombiegirl. From time to time a return to a simple yet complete practice helps. Holding a stick of incense bowing with deep reverence to Shakyamuni reciting with a sincere intention that you are laying down the greedy mind, the hateful mind and the deluded mind brings you to a place of tranquility.
Encountering Santeria for the first time can be unsettling. In many parts of the southwest a very dark form is practiced. But even in the midst of that which is dark you can still walk in the light.
Interesting and honest.
You are adrift. It is perhaps like 'Buddhism, enlightenment . . . yeah whatever'. You don't even want to kick your own butt. What is the point . . .
This is beginner mind of the worst kind . . . we don't even have a self worth listening to. No point in offering advice that would be wrong speech and wasted effort.
Suffering/dukkha . . . ain't so bad is it really . . . just sort of numb . . . emotionally deadened . . .
Thank you for all of the kind words and advice here guys. I found myself nodding along to a lot of it. Yes. "This too shall pass." Perhaps a return to a more simple practice would benefit me. And @lobster I feel like you're inside my head, heh. Ennui. And then reading that over again, I realized that maybe I am just depressed. But being depressed, even if there are good reasons for it, makes me feel somewhat like a failure as a Buddhist... which just kind of makes me feel distant from the practice. Like, I do all of this studying and practicing and theoretically, have a decent grasp on concepts... and then real life rears it's ugly head and I fail. I feel like I should know better or something. And, indeed, Buddhism has helped me through depression before. I'm sure this will pass. I really didn't mean to derail the thread here, but I do appreciate the pep talk.
I feel like I'm speaking Greek to people around me. I feel like my interests/hobbies don't always align with the concept of the ethereal "good Buddhist." I feel guilty about that and guilty that I can't just force myself to get down on that cushion... and let's be real, the scorpions in my house aren't the only reason I can't do this, although it sure serves as a decent/easy excuse.
More contact with other Buddhists might be helpful - are there any meetings, groups, retreats you could get to? Even occasional contact can be very helpful.
Join the club. You can have mine for knocking some sense into the zombified.
Failure is an option. Just so.
However . . . this is a job for 'spooky stuff at a distance'. Are you open for that? Maybe a little . . .
At times like this I call on my future Buddha self to send a 'spiritual boot up the nether regions'. Doing prostrations I ask her to bring all her buddhis . . .
Now of course I can't be bothered to believe in such stuff but I do it anyway . . .
I am not going to send any metta your way. None. No point. Your practice. Your dilemma. It really is all about you . . . Others might be a little more compassionate with those in difficulties . . .
Oh I iz wikid . . . :buck: .