HHDL: No need for a successor.
Chaz
The Remarkable ChazAnywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1587682/dalai-lama-says-no-need-successor-report
In an interview with a German periodical, HHDL talked about the role of the Dalai Lama after his death.
I don't think this is news. Some years back the DL stepped down from his temporal/governmental role placing that power in the hands of the Tibetan government in exile. As I understand it, his activity since then has been primarily teaching.
I've also read that he's said that he may not take rebirth in a way that others may recognize. According to Tibetan tradition, highly realized beings are able to excercise some control over the circumstances of their rebirth, and will leave instructions for their closest disciples to follow to find the next incarnation. All HH would have to do is not leave instructions and declare so publicly.
Tibetan Buddhism doesn't really need a single, spiritual figurehead. The practice/teaching lineages tend to be independant and can abide by the DL's policies or not. He doesn't even hold sway over his own lieage (Gelug). The DL is still revered, but he doesn't have nearly as much control over Tibetan Buddhism as many percieve him to have.
Buddhism, generally, and Tibetan Buddhism in particular can and will get along just fine without a Dalai Lama. The world will go on spinning in greased grooves.
On the other hand it may be a blow to the Tibetan people, who still look to HH as the personification of their country and culture. Just the same they are a resilient people and they'll adapt. In fact, the absence of the Dalai Lama, long a lightingrod for the Chinese occupation, may be the best thing for Tibet to move forward.
Comments
Thanks @Chaz.
I will be curious to see what does happen once HHDL passes on.
My knowledge is limited however, as I understand it, the Chinese government have hand picked a successor? I can't imagine the Tibetan people "following" this person though.
Yes, it would be interesting, for sure.
The thing is HHDL could live for a LONG time yet. He has excellent doctors and unless something sudden andd unexpected happens, they'll keep him going. He'll live a lot longer than his predecessors. Whether or not he'll continue teaching is also a big question. He may retire at some point in the near future and go on permanent retreat, perhaps fading from the public's attention so that when he does die, his passing won't be quite as traumatic as it would if he were to die today.
With great auspiciousness may he (or she) take birth in a free country.
He's going to break the cycle by not feeding it. Good for him!
I think that they would look for him, anyway. The State Oracle would be consulted, they'd go through all the rigamarole anyway. DL's traditionally didn't leave instructions. But there would be signs, and those close to him would pay attention, looking for signs. And the Oracle would be consulted.
If you think about it, though, deciding not to reincarnate is essential at this time, in order to avoid a power struggle with the Chinese, which could turn into, if not a bloodbath, more protests, incarcerations, and self-immolations. The DL undoubtedly feels the weight of the events of the last 10 years on his shoulders, and feels he must do everything possible to stave off chaos after his death.
The last time he announced he wouldn't reincarnate, the Chinese had conniptions. They could still go through the charade of finding a successor, even if everyone within and outside Tibet knew it was fake. And the Chinese have a fake Panchen Lama (along with the real one), who can provide predictions as to where the "new" DL might be found, and officially recognize the fake one the Chinese select.
So all we can do is wait and see what happens. The DL will do his best to avoid the worst. But he can't control the Chinese.
It's a tricky spot he's in here because China has made it illegal to reincarnate there without the proper paperwork. Since he is in exile, if the Dalai Lama is found as a child, it will be immediately imprisoned.
But there's nothing wrong with the cycle. In fact, the cycle of birth and death will continue. HH sees there's no more need for a Dalai Lama and it can stop here, the karma that gave rise to the 14th DL will simply manifest differently after his death.
There's also been talk that the 17th Karmapa, Ogyen Trinley Dorje is being groomed to take on the DL's spiritual role. He's a young man and highly regarded by both western Buddhists as well as the Tibetan commuunity. He also enjoys decent relations with the Chinese.
The next 20 years are going to be very interesting for Tibetan Buddhism.
What? He has to have paperwork in order to reincarnate in China? Do you have a link for that info? But he can reincarnate anywhere in the world. Years ago, he was saying he'd reincarnate in the West. China has no control over him. But they'll probably file all the proper paperwork for whoever they, themselves, choose.
The next 20 years are going to be very interesting for Tibetan Buddhism.
I think this is true, it seems that he's being groomed. But that, too, could turn out to be messy, because there are other claimants to the title of 17th Karmapa.
After the DL passes (which may not be for another 20+ years), it will, indeed, be interesting times for TB. You know the ancient Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times!" The times will be a little too interesting, I'm afraid. :orange: .
So glad I'm a Theravadist-Secularist (whatever the heck that is)!
I'm on my phone but just Google "China bans reincarnation".
You're right, I could see it play out that we have two Dalai Lamas. One, the real deal and one that has been groomed.
... and you know what? So are we!
An oxymoron.
Yep, the dreaded Order #5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Religious_Affairs_Bureau_Order_No._5
It's just surreal! It would make a good Monty Python sketch. :rolleyes: .
It's quite a strange word really. I keep imagining an oxygen bottle with a really low IQ.
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It really is. Anyone who might think it's a good idea would have to have been doing needle drugs for years.
What they're trying to do, is gain some kind of temporal control over Tibet that the religious predispositions of the Tibetan people frustrate. The Chinese disappeared the Panchen Lama - the Lama responsible for locating the next DL - and placed their own man in that position. This PL will undoubetly pick a new DL that suits the needs of the Chinese.
This will fail in the outside of Tibet and very possibly China, but I don't think the Chinese care much about Tibetan Buddhism outside their sphere. They want to control Tibet's heart and soul and that is tied, inextricably, to HHDL.
What an interesting discussion. I am sure HHDL has meditated on this dilemma for a long time now. One thing is for sure and that is that he won't act in haste, and who knows, as the OP pointed out, we are living in interesting times, so who knows what might happen over the next few years. Nothing is permanent, is it?
But the DL has endorsed Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the Karmapa. That doesn't settle the controversy, but I'm pretty sure it's a done deal with the Gelug. So if the the DL were formally give OTD the nod a the spiritual leader of the Tibetan people, I doubt there'd be much argument from the large part of the Gelug lineage. I also believe that the DL has the authority to establish lineage holder status and could bestow that on OTD. We already see this between lineages - my Guru holds both Kagyu and Nyingma lineages. OTD could become a defacto Dalai Lama, without the title.
That's just one possible scenario. There are many more, I'm sure. That's what makes future developments around Tibet and the DL so damned interesting.
The Chinese respond to the interview!
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/china-tells-dalai-lama-again-respect-reincarnation-101256195.html
They want the Dalai Lama to respect the "historical practice of reincarnation" after the interview linked in the OP.
What hypocricy!
Well, yeah, that's what I thought. The last I heard, they were demanding that he reincarnate. They're mad, because by choosing not to, he's outmaneuvered them. And there's nothing they can do about it.
I couldn't resist this funny spin......
A comedian here (Stephen Colbert) volunteers to be 15th Dalai Lama because he's 'The Better Buddhist' ....lololololol
Watch him humbly make his case in the clip.....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/18/colbert-dalai-lama_n_5841964.html
He has, of course, achieved nothing, so he should be the next DL ..... or at least run for the job, and may the better Buddhist win!
Has the Better Buddhist Bureau taken a stance as of yet?
They have been informed and are considering the matter.
Looks like the Chinese weighed in ......
http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/09/china-will-make-the-dalai-lama-reincarnate-whether-he-likes-it-or-not/380003/
The 15th DL WILL take birth in Tibet regardless of what the 143th says.
I see I'm not the only one that thinks there will be two Dalai Lamas. One, an imposter assigned by an atheistic regime and another assigned by Tibetans.
However, if the current Dalai Lama decides to wade to the other shore, both will be fakes.
If reincarnation is real it is beyond the control of power hungry politicians.
If he says it is the end of his line, nobody will accept another except those who wish to gain or those too attached to their view.
Imagine trying to force a being to reincarnate against their will!
It's a joke even as serious as it could turn out to be.
This isn't news. This same scenario played out a few years ago, and generated a very similar thread on this forum, with very similar links. I guess it's a political game of cat-and-mouse the DL and China are playing and replaying. They're like an old couple who keep squabbling about the same stuff, locked into their little drama. Except this one is a slightly bigger drama, with geopolitical implications.
There can and probably will be 2 Dalai Lamas. There's a precedent set in the Kagyu lineage with 2 competeing Karmapas. Works ok for the most part, but one thing is missing - the Chinese didn't pick either of them.
People will follow the DL they want to follow. I suspect most Tibetans will follow the current DL's statement. ON the other hand, there will be those who follow the Chinese. In a couple generations, There will be a Dalai Lama who's a tulku of the DL installed by the Chinese.
We should keep in mind that the office of the DL was not the product of Tibetan thought. The first Dalai Lamas were installed by Mongolians, or so I'm told.
The "main" Karmapa was approved by the Chinese. That's one reason he's so important to the DL et al. The Chinese write him off, because he was considered to be "their" guy. And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese appoint a DL no matter what the current DL says.
And in the meantime, no one knows what's happened to the real Panchen Lama, but the Chinese have a fake one ready to endorse whoever they pick for DL. Kind of sad, all these machinations.
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Another machination here? http://www.patheos.com/blogs/americanbuddhist/2014/10/breaking-world-summit-of-nobel-peace-laureates-canceled-after-the-dalai-lamas-visa-refusal.html
They pull the same thing with a visa for the Karmapa (Orgyen Trinley Dorje) - unwilling to let him leave India because of Chinese pressure.
Another reason I think Politics stink.
Very interesting. South Africa denied the DL a visa about a year ago, when he wanted to attend his pal Bishop Desmond Tutu's birthday. hmm... South Africa is still an ANC government, isn't it? Still a revolutionary gov't. So it makes sense they'd side with the Chinese.
Nonsense. I'm sure it has less to do with the ANC being a 'revolutionary government' and more to do with the fact that China, as a major trading partner and investor in Africa, is putting a lot of pressure on South Africa. The Norwegian government, for example, which isn't a 'revolutionary government,' recently snub the Dalai Lama in May due to similar pressure. It's common for China to use diplomatic pressure and threats to get foreign governments to distance themselves from the Dalai Lama. After the UK granted him a visa in 2012 and he met with David Cameron, China essentially put diplomatic relations on hold for a whole year as punishment, and many governments are distancing themselves from him so as not to anger China. China, as a growing economic power, has a lot of weight to throw around these days.
I can still remember boycotting South African produce during the dark days of apartheid. Maybe I'll start again.
Seriously though, there are probably an increasing number of countries who won't want to upset the Chinese for economic and political reasons. It's depressing.
Oooh, you go, Bro'!!
Desmond Tutu pulls no punches, in roundly condemning the African Government's yellow-spined refusal of a Visa to HHDL...
Yes, it may be depressing about how the Chinese behave, but sometimes I think we need to give small third-world countries a bit of a break in how they react to the global chess game. Some of these countries -- I can't speak about South Africa in particular -- rely on investment from foreign countries for infrastructure related to clean water, medical facilities, roads and bridges, agriculture, etc. Not saying smaller countries shouldn't be criticized...they often should be...but just as often they are mere pawns for the big players.
This is the THIRD time SA has capitulated to Pressure from the Chinese... I don't think it's as much a criticism of SA, as an exposure of how corruptly the Chinese Government are, in their attitude and behaviour towards other countries.
They are bullies.
With that I agree.
:thumbsup: .