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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Yes, that's what I was saying except for the "nothing" bit. If we change it to "not a thing" so it actually makes sense and then it's a bit more logical.
Even "void" is not "nothing" as it signifies spacious emptiness. Can't be empty and nothing at the same time.
@Earthninja said: ourself damn it! I meant non self not no self. Obviously something exists. but it's not this damn 'person' haha. I now see why you were talking about no self as a concept. Non self is what I'm referring to.
I think these are all just ideas really, pointers. So we closely investigate our experience and see what it's actually like.
^^^
Exactly so. No thing, void, neti-neti, a pen not on a table, a mind settled on nothing in too much detail, all slightly different to suchness, I AM, God, Flying Spegetti Monster (PBUH) and Cecil the Ultimate Deity (my very own open source divinity) http://peace.wikia.com/wiki/Cecil ... or are they so different
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Really, it's the implication of "nothing" that gets me going as there is no such thing as nothing. It sounds all mystical and everything but it's nonsense.
I think "void" is a poor translation for sunyata. Sunyata is basically pointing to conditionality, it's not saying that things don't exist, it's saying that things don't have independent existence.
"No things, only processes" captures it quite well.
^^^ Avoid void? Not sure how to, what with my hinayanist and other mischievous tendencies ...
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
@SpinyNorman said:
Isn't void the same as nothing, practically speaking, an empty space? An empty space is defined by the absence of things.
No, because as we have agreed processes are not things, nor are they nothing. If there is the potential for change, it isn't nothing.
Emptiness is precisely form.
Nothing is not anything, form or otherwise.
If we can ever use "it" in place of "nothing" it isn't nothing.
Even space itself is not nothing. Space has properties.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
An empty space is like an empty cup which still consists of porcelain.
When I get to my desk top I'll find a link but just google properties of space and you'll see it is not deserving of the label "nothing".
Empty space is full to the brim with potential.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
@Earthninja said:
Absolutely right ourself . All there is/ is experience. When we try to describe reality we often get lost in believing words/thoughts
Have a great day!
True enough, but if we're mindful of it we see the labels as convenient tools of expression and nothing more.
It's still Right effort to use them as mindfully as we can as to avoid misunderstandings.
This is why I try to make the distinction between no-self and non-self or emptiness and nothingness. They do not mean the same things.
Until we develop telepathy, words and gestures are all we have.
I'm going to give it a go one more time just for kicks.
We are not the looker or the lookee... We are just looking.
Awakening is rare when we have the eye fixed on the goal, like the donkey following the carrot.
When we sit back, relax, observe, it is a common happenstance...
'we' see a post then a picture comes from 'our' own mind, a name to that picture comes from 'our' own mind and a meaning to that picture and name also comes within 'our' own mind
thinking all of them comes from outside, we react (write an answer)
are 'we' deluded or not?
can 'we' find an answer to above just by reading texts?
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Without intellectual understanding the 4 NTs would not even be with us.
Direct seeing is good but without being mindful of the labels we use we risk confusing a newcomer.
Surely you get that.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@SpinyNorman said:
Oh, allright then. Have I been guilty of "space-o-phobia"?
Being mindful is direct seeing in my understanding.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
@Earthninja said:
Being mindful is direct seeing in my understanding.
There is intellectual understanding of direct experience too.
Being mindful of this we use our labels carefully as to convey the experience as best we can without confusion.
Direct seeing can come from being mindful but being mindful doesn't automatically mean we are seeing directly.
@ourself said:Direct seeing can come from being mindful but being mindful doesn't automatically mean we are seeing directly.
So what's the difference?
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@ourself said:Being mindful is the practice of seeing directly as seeing directly is a consequence of being mindful.
Probably it's about paying attention closely enough to really see what's going on.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
Well, yeah.
I guess that's why having a meditation practice is so important.
I love this kind of intellectual gaming, but there is no way out other than siting it out it seems, so for now I'm gonna remain a mammal - I love you @shoshin for that one btw I've played it a few times now and it still gets me lol,,,❤️
Comments
@lobster;
Yes, that's what I was saying except for the "nothing" bit. If we change it to "not a thing" so it actually makes sense and then it's a bit more logical.
Even "void" is not "nothing" as it signifies spacious emptiness. Can't be empty and nothing at the same time.
I think these are all just ideas really, pointers. So we closely investigate our experience and see what it's actually like.
^^^
Exactly so. No thing, void, neti-neti, a pen not on a table, a mind settled on nothing in too much detail, all slightly different to suchness, I AM, God, Flying Spegetti Monster (PBUH) and Cecil the Ultimate Deity (my very own open source divinity) http://peace.wikia.com/wiki/Cecil ... or are they so different
@Earthninja;
Really, it's the implication of "nothing" that gets me going as there is no such thing as nothing. It sounds all mystical and everything but it's nonsense.
I think "void" is a poor translation for sunyata. Sunyata is basically pointing to conditionality, it's not saying that things don't exist, it's saying that things don't have independent existence.
"No things, only processes" captures it quite well.
^^^ Avoid void? Not sure how to, what with my hinayanist and other mischievous tendencies ...
Void is still better than nothing.
Absolutely right @ourself . All there is/ is experience. When we try to describe reality we often get lost in believing words/thoughts
Have a great day!
Isn't void the same as nothing, practically speaking, an empty space? An empty space is defined by the absence of things.
Ok guys, NOW I'm getting one of my headaches....!
Empty your mind! There is no spoon!
No, because as we have agreed processes are not things, nor are they nothing. If there is the potential for change, it isn't nothing.
Emptiness is precisely form.
Nothing is not anything, form or otherwise.
If we can ever use "it" in place of "nothing" it isn't nothing.
Even space itself is not nothing. Space has properties.
An empty space is like an empty cup which still consists of porcelain.
When I get to my desk top I'll find a link but just google properties of space and you'll see it is not deserving of the label "nothing".
Empty space is full to the brim with potential.
True enough, but if we're mindful of it we see the labels as convenient tools of expression and nothing more.
It's still Right effort to use them as mindfully as we can as to avoid misunderstandings.
This is why I try to make the distinction between no-self and non-self or emptiness and nothingness. They do not mean the same things.
Until we develop telepathy, words and gestures are all we have.
I'm going to give it a go one more time just for kicks.
We are not the looker or the lookee... We are just looking.
Free your mind (lovely cliche for you)
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vimokkha.htm
Oh, allright then. Have I been guilty of "space-o-phobia"?
Awakening is rare when we have the eye fixed on the goal, like the donkey following the carrot.
When we sit back, relax, observe, it is a common happenstance...
True enough, but if we're mindful of it we see the labels as convenient tools of expression and nothing more.
>
This is true, but it has to be a direct seeing. Not just another thought about the thoughts. Intellectual understanding won't help.
'we' see a post then a picture comes from 'our' own mind, a name to that picture comes from 'our' own mind and a meaning to that picture and name also comes within 'our' own mind
thinking all of them comes from outside, we react (write an answer)
are 'we' deluded or not?
can 'we' find an answer to above just by reading texts?
@Earthninja;
Without intellectual understanding the 4 NTs would not even be with us.
Direct seeing is good but without being mindful of the labels we use we risk confusing a newcomer.
Surely you get that.
Only if you're afraid of space having properties.
Being mindful is direct seeing in my understanding.
There is intellectual understanding of direct experience too.
Being mindful of this we use our labels carefully as to convey the experience as best we can without confusion.
Direct seeing can come from being mindful but being mindful doesn't automatically mean we are seeing directly.
I'm really not trying to rain on your parade.
@ourself nicely put! I don't mind my parade being rained on.
In fact I invite it by sharing my thoughts on this crazy forum
Thank you, skilled reply my friend.
An important modus operandi to use das olde Italiano lingo.
Language is important to bodhisattva dervish poets who express themselves across a range of meaning including:
Here is a link (fair warning may contain references to the 'big fish in the sky')
http://www.fountainmagazine.com/Issue/detail/love-in-sufi-poetry-may-june-2012
So what's the difference?
Being mindful is the practice of seeing directly as seeing directly is a consequence of being mindful.
Even with sudden satori I would imagine the necessary conditions would have to be there even if we didn't notice their arising.
Probably it's about paying attention closely enough to really see what's going on.
Well, yeah.
I guess that's why having a meditation practice is so important.
The Buddha said that the Dhamma is subtle.
I love this kind of intellectual gaming, but there is no way out other than siting it out it seems, so for now I'm gonna remain a mammal - I love you @shoshin for that one btw I've played it a few times now and it still gets me lol,,,❤️