Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
six elements and its movement
upekka
Veteran
in Meditation
four elements (earth, water, fire and air) in space (another element) change because of the change of consciousness (another element)
(food for thought, not for over-thinking but to observe through own six sense bases)
0
Comments
The six sense objects are sights, sounds, smells, taste, tactile sensations and mind objects.
The 4 elements belong to the 4th group("touch/temperature") above in terms of direct experience, doesn't it?
Could you explain this further?
The six elements are described in this sutta:: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html
see your post (consciousness), didn't let go of it, in other words hold on to it (another consciousnes) and typing an answer (more consciousnesses) movement of fingers (change four element of the body/ internal four elements) in space
which make an effect on external four elements in space
after we understand what is happening with six sensory bases,
what remain is to understand through six sensory bases which can be called practising the 'feelings in and of themselves'? because by this time we know everything is a mirage
and
because everything we experience comes back to the body as we were discussing in another thread related to pain?
jumping over 'that fence' is what we have to do?
@pegembara, @SpinyNorman, @namarupa and other members, your explanation will be much appreciated
thanks in advance
The Chachakka Sutta basically gives the lay out of the path from true understanding of how the "world" is build via the six sense bases.
Vinnana/namarupa paccaya salayatana --->phassa ---->vedana ---->tanha
The description is so analytical and dry. Like an experiment using the six senses and their objects as tools.
The default view of the unenlightened beings who be like this. I see, I hear, I taste, I smell, I feel, I think. I want/hate ...
The correct practice is described.
The crux of the matter lie with feelings or rather how one has to avoid getting pulled/pushed by them.
What is this clear knowing(sati sampajanna)?
http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_heed.htm
Verse 21. Freedom Is Difficult
Heedfulness is the Deathless path,
heedlessness, the path to death.
Those who are heedful do not die,
heedless are like the dead.
Explanation: The path to the Deathless is the perpetual awareness of experience. The deathless does not imply a physical state where the body does not die. When an individual becomes totally aware of the process of experiencing, he is freed from the continuity of existence. Those who do not have that awareness are like the dead, even if they are physically alive.
thanks @pegembara
i found that Buddha had talked about 18 elements (18 dhathu)
could you kindly provide the relevant sutta or suttas, if you aware of it/them
thanks in advance
As far as I know the so called 18 elements are just the six sense organs, six sense objects and six sense consciousness that make up our "world". Anything beyond cannot be known and lies beyond range.
In the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, the Buddha sets about deconstructing the "person" in these terms.
"'A person has six properties.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? These are the six properties: the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, the wind property, the space property, the consciousness property. 'A person has six properties.'
"'A person has six media of sensory contact.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? These are the six media of sensory contact: the eye as a medium of sensory contact, the ear... the nose... the tongue... the body... the intellect as a medium of sensory contact. '
"'A person has eighteen considerations.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? These are the eighteen considerations: On seeing a form with the eye, one considers a form that can act as a basis for joy, a form that can act as a basis for distress, or a form that can act as a basis for equanimity. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an aroma with the nose... On tasting a flavor with the tongue... On feeling a tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the intellect, one considers an idea that can act as a basis for joy, an idea that can act as a basis for distress, or an idea that can act as a basis for equanimity. Thus there are six considerations conducive to joy, six conducive to distress, & six conducive to equanimity. 'A person has eighteen considerations.'
These are the four determinations: the determination for discernment, the determination for truth, the determination for relinquishment, the determination for calm.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html
thanks @pegembara
you are an asset
if i say as follows:
there are six elements
moving of them is natural
knowing (consciousness) of the moving (within space) of four elements (apo, thejo vayo and patavi) is the only thing happening in this world (cosmos)
when we check what is happening within us and around us using our six sense media we can come to the conclusion that there is nothing in this world other than our thoughts/ perceptions about the things that we see, hear, smell, taste, feel and thought
thought/perception have no inherent quality, they are empty
that is why it says 'emptiness is form, form is emptiness'
what we see, hear, smell, taste, feel are forms (four elements and derivatives of them)
so only valid thing in this world (cosmos) is changing of six elements
this change is (aniththa) and it is itself 'dukka' (suffering) and if so who would want to say the change is my or mine or my soul
if we can be mindful about the above whenever a form arises, then there is no craving, so no becoming, so no birth, so no getting old, getting sickness etc.
@pegembara and other members, what do you have to say?
thanks in advance
Actually more importantly, what did the Buddha have to say?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.101.than.html
Of course one can choose to ignore the advice. After all some things are worth suffering for (or are they?)
I think it's worth noting that "letting go" here is a result of insight, and not an act of will or intellectual understanding. Directly observing the transience and conditionality of the elements is one method of developing insight.
"Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.
"Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.
"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html
Another form of insight is through direct experience.
The sorrows, lamentations,
the many kinds of suffering in the world,
exist dependent on something dear.
They don't exist
when there's nothing dear.
And thus blissful & sorrowless
are those for whom nothing
in the world is anywhere dear.
So one who aspires
to the stainless & sorrowless
shouldn't make anything
dear
in the world
anywhere.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.08.than.html
_ Lord, how could there not be an aberration in my faculties? My dear & beloved little son, my only child, has died. Because of his death, I have no desire to work or to eat. I keep going to the cemetery and crying out, 'Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone, my only little child?'"
"That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is — for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear."
"But lord, who would ever think that sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear? Happiness & joy are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear." So the householder, not delighting in the Blessed One's words, rejecting the Blessed One's words, got up from his seat and left._
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.087.than.html
i have just listened to a dhamma talk given by a Monk
He says even the consciousness is made up of four elements and there are only four elements in the space
in other words, even though we talk of our body and consciousness there are only four elements
only the wisdom faculty could see it and what the ordinary folks have to do is develop their faculties (confidence, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom)
to develop faculties one has to practice mindfulness (four frames of reference)
(this particular dhamma talk is given in sinhala, so no use providing the link here)
it is much appreciated if anyone can provide any relevant sutta/suttas
thanks
i found this in another thread
@seeker 242, could you please provide the source, it seems you have taken this from a sutta
thanks