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What is the ultimate goal?
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Nibbana is cooling down like the putting out of burning fire. Greed, ill-will and the delusion of an ego causes agitation like fire and should rightly be extinguished/nibbanaed. So I am in agreement.
P: Nibbana is cooling down like the putting out of burning fire.
S9: Do you see Nirvana as something that is gained 'all at once,' when we reach a critical mass of wisdom, or something that slowly seeps into us, one wise act at a time?
There are 2 schools of thought on this. One is called “Instant Enlightenment,” and the other is called “Slow Enlightenment.”
And:
Why?
Sincerely,
S9
I believe one can get enlightened sometimes by "grace" or "previous Karma", also through intense suffering and therefore instant enlightenment.
The normal way is through gradual mental training by the N8FP involving virtue without which no mental calmness is possible, concentration by various means to silence the mental chatter and finally through wisdom by mindfulness meditation on body, feelings, mind and mental qualities.
"Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance — non-return."
Satipatthana Sutta
But when we look at the 12 links of the Chain of Dependent Causation (paticcasamuppada), viz:
(1) Ignorance - aka delusion (depends on volition forces)
(2) Volition Forces - aka Kamma (depends on consciousness)
(3) Consciousness (depends on mind-and-body
(4) Mind and Body- aka Name & Form (depends on the six senses)
(5) Six Senses - aka Sense Organs ( depends on stimulation)
(6) Stimulation - aka Contact (depends on feeling/sensation)
(7) Feeling - aka Sensation (depends on desire/craving)
(8) Craving - aka Desire (depends on attachment)
(9) Attachment (depends on existence)
(10) Existence (depends on birth)
(11) Birth (depends on dukkha - suffering/unsatisfactoriness)
(12) Dukkha (This is old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, grief, and despair)?
... we find "ignorance" at No.1 spot and "craving" at No.8 spot and various other factors. We see the 11 factors which lead to dukkha.
Is this "Chain of Dependent Causation" the correct way to understand how dukkha arises? In other words... is it the second Noble Truth - "the cause of suffering"?
Dependent Origination is a complete illustration of the arising of all dukkha in our lives. Ignorance is of the 4NT/anatta/anicca/dukkha. Craving/hatred/delusion can be seen within D.O.
But you have D.O. backwards, as in, 2 depends on 1, and 3 depends on 2, etc. (for example, craving depends on feeling, and feeling depends on Contact, dukkha depends on birth/death, and so forth).
This is not correct. The suttas never suggest this. This interpretation was a misunderstanding of Buddhaghosa's, and if the Buddha meant to say "kamma," he would have... but he said "sankhara." The suttas state that the Second Link refers specifically to bodily, verbal, and mental fabricators ("formations"). This is explained as: "In-&-out breaths are bodily fabricators. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabricators. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabricators." [MN 44] Ignorance conditions mind-and-body via sankhara.
"Bhava" means "becoming," the desire for "becoming."
The 12th Link is only old age and death, and then, from that arises "the whole mass of suffering." This distinction is important because old age and death (most people will naturally think of the body, but it refers to all things that are impermanent) are not inherently dukkha. Only with the birth of the self-concept which clings to impermanent things is decay and death interpreted as dukkha.
Yes but D.O. is not a hierarchy of causes of suffering. The root cause of all suffering is ignorance, because it leads to craving/clinging. If there was no clinging/craving, there would be no suffering, but we cannot eliminate clinging/craving without addressing the root issue.
You will have to look and see for yourself if it's true.
Yes, and likewise, it's the way to understand the quenching of dukkha.
I have heard Enlightenment described in this way; that we gradually move towards Enlightenment as you have said, but actual Enlightenment itself is always instantaneous.
That would make it seem like there was no gray area, as in either you are or you are not Enlightened.
If this were the case of the matter, then the path would be rather more like a mudra, don’t you think? (All about intension.)
If this were true, Clarity /Wisdom/Virtue, all would be a symptom of Grace. The very first Grace would be that of discomfort or dissatisfaction.
Peace,
S9
I must admit ... this is really a silly mistake on my part.
Original Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>(2) Volition Forces - aka Kamma (depends on consciousness) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Thanks for the clarification. I looked up the Pali Nikayas (Chapter on Causes - Nidana-Vagga) and it explains volitional force as you had indicated. No mention of "kamma". I must remember not to make this mistake again!
Thanks also for the clarification on the other points.
With kind regards,
Sukhita
There are various levels of insight starting from the initial glimpse all the way to final unbinding [sotoppana to arahantship]
What's a mudra?
Yes, the first step would be to see dukkha and to come into contact with the teachings and walking the path.
DO all takes place in the present moment without involvement of a self. The Dhamma is sanditthiko akaaliko ehipassiko -Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation . The interesting question is whether the cycle of DO ends automatically upon physical death or does it carry on and on until the cycle gets broken.
Could it be that the root cause of suffering is birth because it ultimately leads to aging/sickness/death? If there was no birth there would be no suffering but we cannot eliminate birth without addressing the root issue which is craving[2nd NT]
Avijja/Ignorance and Sankhara/Conditioner are background to the consciousness/vinnana and name-form/namarupa . Consciousness and name-form turns back on itself.
"This consciousness turns back from name-and-form, it does not go beyond. In so
far can one be born, or grow old, or die, or pass away, or reappear, in so far as this is,
namely: consciousness is dependent on name-and-form, and name-and-form on
consciousness; dependent on name-and-form, the six sense-bases; dependent on the
six sense-bases, contact; dependent on contact, feeling; dependent on feeling, craving;
dependent on craving, grasping; dependent on grasping, becoming; dependent on
becoming, birth; and dependent on birth, decay-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain,
grief and despair come to be. Thus is the arising of this entire mass of suffering."
Nāmarūpanirodhā viññāõanirodho, viññāõanirodhā nāma-rūpanirodho. "From the
cessation of name-and-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation
of consciousness comes the cessation of name-and-form."
Once this vital link is broken, that is, when consciousness ceases with the cessation
of name-and-form, and name-and-form ceases with the cessation of consciousness,
then all the other links following name-and-form, such as the six sense-bases, contact
and feeling, come to cease immediately. "
MahāPadānasutta
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the part of my post that you quoted?
And the last sentence is oddly phrased... what do you mean?
consciousness is dependent on name-and-form, and name-and-form on
consciousness
The mutual interrelation between consciousness and name-and-form is like that of
two bundles of reeds, mutually supporting each other. Having given this simile,
Venerable Sāriputta goes on to mention the other links of the pañicca samuppāda
formula, as in the case of the bodhisatta Vipassī’s insight. It runs: "Dependent on
name-and-form, the six sense-bases; dependent on the six sense-bases, contact;
dependent on contact, feelings" (and so on). And then the cessation aspect of these
links is also given.
Reed Simile
All right, yes; I've said this before and agree. But I still don't understand what you were responding to in my post.
For example, if our mind discerns the true nature of morality, it can go far to extinguish passions.
But to somehow see passions are empty of any real significance is just intellectual theory. It is like the chicken & the egg & what comes first.
Spoken in another way, to extinguish the defilements and underlying tendencies in an instant of enlightenment is impossible.
Enlightenment is not Nibbana. Nibbana emerges from enlightenment.
Instant complete Nibbbana is impossible.
P: There are various levels of insight starting from the initial glimpse all the way to final unbinding [sotoppana to arahantship].
S9: You are not saying, however, that Enlightenment is just one more insight, or some kind of a final insight, equal to all the other insights, are you? This being a sort of like the cherry on the cake?
RE: S9: If this were the case of the matter, then the path would be rather more like a mudra, don’t you think? (All about intension.)
P: What's a mudra?
S9: Literally, a mudra is sort of like an asana, or way of holding ones body as is the full lotus, the most recognized way that most people meditate (if limber enough to do so.)
Metaphorically, a mudra would be more like a way that you hold your mind, maybe like an attitude, if you will. You might decide to enter meditation receptively, or without previous assumptions as to what you would come upon, or learn, by doing so. This would also be a mudra, or a mental positioning.
Now you can answer my original question, if it makes sense to you now, that is. I will further explain myself if necessary. I don’t mind doing this. : ^ )
P: Yes, the first step would be to see dukkha and to come into contact with the teachings and walking the path.
S9: I think dukka is obvious even to the animals. I think it is how ubiquitous dukkha, in fact, is that blows our minds, that and how difficult it is to avoid dukkha.
It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that it is best to know the enemy. That’s when all the fun begins. : ^ )
Anyone who thinks they are just going to dedicate a weekend to figuring this out is in for a big surprise…and a long ride.
But, a ride that we grow to love.
Respectfully,
S9
Yes.
No.
Insight is not "holding". Holding is concentration.
:smilec:
Consciousness is dependent on name-and-form, and name-and-form on
consciousness.
You don't agree. Why?
"It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form....
"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form...."[28]
In the "Sheaves of Reeds Discourse" (Nalakalapiyo Sutta, SN 12.67), Ven. Sariputta uses this famous analogy to explain the interdependency of consciousness and name-&-form.
A chair is interdependency on wood & nails. So what?
Your mudra sounds like tranquillity meditation for calming the mind and shutting down mental chatter. When one comes out one is none the wiser; calmness without wisdom.
It's one of the links in DO and you don't think it has anything to do with ending suffering!! The DO is deep and one who understand DO understands the Dhamma.
How did you come to such an interpretation of the MahāPadānasutta and Nalakalapiyo Sutta? Why did you reject your own interpretation?
I had not read the whole Nalakalapiyo Sutta. Now I have.
As I said, nirodha does not mean 'cessation'. The Buddha after he attained Nibbana at 35 years old did not cease to be conscious.
:eek:
Regarding the reincarnation interpretation, that was my impression of your interpretation.
Nirodha does not mean 'cessation'. But standard interpretations are different. What makes you think your translation of nirodha is correct?
On one occasion Ven. Sariputta and Ven. MahaKotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then in the evening, arising from his seclusion, Ven. MahaKotthita went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Sariputta: "Now tell me, Sariputta my friend: Are aging & death self-made or other-made or both self-made & other-made, or — without self-making or other-making — do they arise spontaneously?"
"It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that aging & death are self-made, that they are other-made, that they are both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — they arise spontaneously. However, from birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death."
"Now tell me, friend Sariputta: Is birth... Is becoming... Is clinging/sustenance... Is craving... Is feeling... Is contact... Are the six sense media self-made or other-made or both self-made & other-made, or — without self-making or other-making — do they arise spontaneously?"
"It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that the six sense media are self-made, that they are other-made, that they are both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — they arise spontaneously. However, from name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media."
"Now tell me, friend Sariputta: Is name-&-form self-made or other-made or both self-made & other-made, or — without self-making or other-making — does it arise spontaneously?"
"It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that name-&-form is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form."
"Now tell me, friend Sariputta: is consciousness self-made or other-made or both self-made & other-made, or — without self-making or other-making, does it arise spontaneously?"
"It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness."
"If a monk teaches the Dhamma for the sake of disenchantment, dispassion, & cessation with regard to birth, he deserves to be called a monk who is a speaker of Dhamma. If he practices for the sake of disenchantment, dispassion, & cessation with regard to birth, he deserves to be called a monk who practices the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma. If — through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, and lack of clinging/sustenance with regard to birth — he is released, then he deserves to be called a monk who has attained Unbinding in the here-&-now.
Nalakalapiyo Sutta
What is your interpretation then?
When consciousness has nirodha, the defilement & dukkha ceases to be part of it or affect it.
That is why there are so many suttas about the liberation, purity & luminousness of mind & consciousness.
The Buddha was conscious for 45 years. His consciousness did not 'cease'. Rather, it 'quenched'.
Sounds reasonable.
P: Your mudra sounds like tranquility meditation for calming the mind and shutting down mental chatter. When one comes out one is none the wiser; calmness without wisdom.
S9: If the mudra is a physical asana, than it has no other purpose than to prepare for mediation. I cannot see this hurting meditation in any way. Some mudras, like how they hold their hands, alert them to the fact that they are not staying attentive, or getting drowsy.
Mostly a mudra would be a little bit like lighting incense, or chanting first, b/4 meditation to set up an ambience, (kind of ritualistic.) Although I have heard physiological explanations about how certain postures create a change in our nervous system directly, etc.
I personally don’t indulge in ritual behavior (on purpose) outside of things like having lunch at the same time every day. So, it isn’t my bag.
If however a mudra is an attitude, well, I can see that as being very useful in a practical way. Like you might vow to yourself, not to take what other people say to you as personal and be hurt by it (being thin skinned.) Or you might vow to yourself, not to identify with anger anymore. (A vow is an intentional attitude, AKA mudra.)
I vowed one time, not to blame others, (for the rest of my life), but rather to take responsibility for how I felt, and to change what needed changing.
Lin Chi said, “Claim something to be your own, and see who/what comes to tell you otherwise.”
He also said, ”Play the Host, and listen to who comes (the guests) to inform you.”
(In other words, you are the King in your personal kingdom (AKA your life), and everything/everyone else is merely your ambassadors within your kingdom. It is their job to keep you informed. These would include the emotion ambassador, the intellect ambassador, the pain ambassador, the fear ambassador, the 6 sensations ambassadors, and the other people ambassadors, etc.
I was truly surprise just how often, after making my vow not to blame anymore, that I would go to blame something/someone, (knee jerk reaction), and needed to refuse to play that game, anymore. I had taken my seat (throne mudra) in not blaming, and refused to move.
By the way, do you see a difference between ‘consciousness of’ (brain consciousness), which requires a subject and an object and so is co-dependent upon a subject/object, and Pure Consciousness, which is Buddha Nature and requires neither subject nor object?
Respectfully,
S9
Consciousness is dependent on contact between a sense object and sense organ ie. seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touch and thinking. A person is thought to be a collection of mind and body or 5 khandhas without an unchanging eternal self. The original sin or ignorance is that one is mistaken that there is a subject/ I in relation to the external world/object.
This 5 illusionist are intrinsically empty of independent existence.
There is no pure/ultimate eternal consciousness ie. God/Brahman/Atman either.
"Neither self-wrought is this image,
Nor yet other-wrought is this misery,
By reason of a cause, it came to be,
By breaking up the cause, it ceases to be.
Even so, all these aggregates
Elements and bases six,
By reason of a cause have come to be,
By breaking up the cause will cease to be."
Sela Theri
The cause is craving/tanha and as long as this cause has not been uprooted one is bound to samsara.
"This being, this exists,
With the arising of this, this arises.
This not being, this does not exist,
With the cessation of this, this ceases"
If, Ānanda, consciousness were not to find a footing, or get established in, name-and-form, would there be an arising or origin of birth, decay, death and suffering in the future?" "No indeed, Lord", says Venerable Ānanda.
P: “Consciousness is dependent on contact between a sense object and sense organ.”
S9: That is what I mean by ‘consciousness of” of the consciousness that is dependent upon the brain, and goes black (lights out) when we are hit upon the head really hard.
P: “…without an unchanging eternal self.”
S9: Tell me if you will, how do you see Buddha Nature?
P: “The original sin or ignorance is that one is mistaken that there is a subject/I in relation to the external world/object.”
S9: Wouldn’t what you have discribed above be simply attachment to the ego (small self)? I certainly see the ego (personality) as empty of any independent existence.
P: “There is no pure/ultimate eternal consciousness, i.e. God/Brahman/Atman either.”
S9: This is certainly where we differ, but, maybe not as much as it may first appear. (That is if we recognized, how we both described these.)
: ^ )
For instance I fully agree with ‘no-self,’ if it means no-ego-self. This empty dream, earthly manifestation is certainly empty of any personal essence. Just like our dreams at night come up and go down within the imagination.
P: Q: By reason of a cause have come to be,
By breaking up the cause will cease to be."
S9: It seems to me that you have quite a few things unexplained here. For instance, what caused the cause? This seems a lot like the 'Big Bang Theory' in this way. They, too, have a big bang with nothing to go bang.
P: Q: The cause is craving.
S9: In the very origin, b/4 anything, who was craving, and for that matter craving for what?
Respectfully,
S9
Yes. This is the ordinary ordinary mind.
Buddha Nature/Rigpa/Bare awareness is that which is aware of phenomenon but doesn't take this to be me, mine or myself.
Yes
There is no beginning or 1st cause. The Buddha in his meditation went back many eons and could not discover a beginning. He saw impermanence- even mother Earth is subject to the same cosmic law.
Craving is the cause of beings being trapped in the endless cycle of samsara not the origin. There is no origin that the Buddha can discern. That is the mystery.
Craving for existence ie. survival instinct to protect a "self" that manifests as a new becoming or life form if you like.
"There comes a time when the great ocean evaporates, dries up, & does not exist. But for beings — as long as they are hindered by ignorance, fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on — I don't say that there is an end of suffering & stress.
"There comes a time when Sineru, king of mountains, is consumed with flame, is destroyed, & does not exist. But for beings — as long as they are hindered by ignorance, fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on — I don't say that there is an end of suffering & stress.
"There comes a time when the great earth is consumed with flame, is destroyed, & does not exist. But for beings — as long as they are hindered by ignorance, fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on — I don't say that there is an end of suffering & stress.
"Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.
Gaddula Sutta: The Leash (1)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.099.than.html
Thanks for the quotes.
Be well,
S9