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Haha, yeah that sounds like a weird show! If I watch TV I don't have time to do anything else except for homework! well... I already only have time to do homework, but that's my point! Man school.. Hehe.
I'm fine thanks Ashley
Palzang, as you're so keen to know, it's a TV show animation on CBBC (the older-kids channel for the UK) about a small flock of sheep led by Shaun the Sheep on a small farm, they get into all sorts of funny adventures and Blitzer the sheep dog tries to keep an eye on them. The farm also had a moody bull, fat ducks, evil pigs, and a goat that eats litterally anything, it's very mature :cool: CBBC has more mature shows of course, but Shaun is the silliest and immaturest
Why? Who knows? Why isn't important. No self means that you are not a separate, self-existing entity apart from everything else. In other words, you only exist in relation to everything else. The idea that this hunk of flesh and bone that we dress up purdy and go out struttin' in is us is a delusion. We're not really separate from everything. Everything is connected. You are them and they are you. Does that make any sense?
When we first conceived of the basic sense of "self" and "other" is when desire first arose. When there was no sense of "self" and "other" there was no desire because you lacked nothing. It's only when you create this artificial "self" that you conceive of as being apart from everything else that desire can arise because then you no longer have everything.
Hope that helps. It is a difficult thing to get your mind around.
Popplesquash? Good old English word rightey ho chap, what? I can speak all my popplesquashagygoo here and you want to a damn dilly Ol' thing tha am sayin' what! Like in me signature old chap. Wan some tea?
Thanks for explaining that to me palzang. And if why isn't important then how? How are we all interconnected? How do we know we are? I think your explanation requires for me to let go of a self to accept it... but it's hard to see the truth in your statement when I cannot neccesarilly prove it myself.
How are we interconnected? Well, we're not interconnected. Interconnected would mean little "me's" connected somehow. There really is no separation. And how? That is something you have to discover for yourself through your practice. It's not something you can explain.
Well, fine then! Humph! I will work on understanding this. Thank you for explaining that to me Palzang.
Okay, what about being mindful? How do you stay in the moment? Is that not thinking about the past or future, or what? Silly questions, just curious...
I have a question... why is there no-self? I don't really get anatta... :P
A good thing to do would be to research the Buddha's teaching in anatta (not-self). Do you have a good website or book you refer to a lot? If not, let us know and we'll direct you to some resources.
I study and practice Theravada Buddhism so my answer will be a bit different from Palzang's but the way I've been learning about not-self according to my school is through the khandas. They are the five things that make up a person. They basically comprise the physical body and mind. They are: form, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness.
The Buddha taught that these five things make up the human being and no everlasting 'self' or 'soul' could be found amongst them. So although we do exist and for conventional reasons we must refer to each other as 'selves' in order for society to function, in reality the 'self' that we refer to is not a permanent entity and does not exist as we think it does.
For example, I was called 'Brigid' when I was born and all my life I've been identified, and have identified myself, as this 'Brigid'. But that name is only a convention, an agreement we've all made for the sake of social convenience. When I look at myself and the five aggregates (or khandas) that make me up, I can't find anything in those five aggregates that is a lasting 'Brigid'. My body doesn't make me 'Brigid', nor do my feelings, or the way I perceive things, or the ideas and beliefs I have, nor my consciousness of sight, sounds, smells, tastes, and touch. None of these things actually point to an everlasting entity that is 'Brigid'. All of these khandas are impermanent. In fact, not only will all these things die one day, they are constantly in a state of change while living. So nothing that makes up this 'Brigid' can be held onto, even from one second to the next.
I'm a beginner so I'll post a link that can actually teach you something about not-self. I'm only describing my idea of it so far and it could well be a little off so it needs to be researched and contemplated by you so you can come to an understanding that will satisfy you.
Here's a link with some good stuff that I've found helpful:
But by all means, have a good search through other online resources and books. The Buddha's teaching on anatta has been the most important teaching for me because it has resulted in the greatest lessening of my suffering.
I am going to try to explain no-self in the way I see it now, anyone can feel free to critique it. There is nothing in me that cannot change. We try to identify ourselves with "my opinion" "my belief" "my idea" "my body". But what is my? Who is me? I can identify myself as my body. The something that I can look at in the mirror, one moment. I can say I see this, smell this, think this, am this... etc. But in the next moment will I still be seeing, smelling and thinking the same? No. Our percetions, thoughts, opinions, etc., are always changing. Thus, there is nothing in this body that I can label permanent. I can see no-self in this way... that there is nothing in me that will always last, in fact everything in me can and will change eventually. That is the me as a baby isn't the me of now.
I guess the only thing that I could bump heads with is that I am here. This person, though constantly changing is here now. I can see myself in the mirror, etc. So though there is no permanent self, I have a body, a look, opinions, etc.
Yet, I think I can see what no-self is getting at. The five skandhas (as I learned it- I assume the same thing as 'khandas') are in themselves growing as well as deteriorating at any given time. And we cling to this me, and what people think of this me, and how this me looks, etc. This is getting attactched to something that is always changing, thus, there is no point in doing so. It would be like trying to make a shooting star last forever. It's there, then it's gone. Just like us... but it still was there. I can label it shooting star, though the shooting star is always changing. Like a river, always changing, but still labeled river. (The last part is me clinging to existance but accepting that my existance will end... heheh )
I am going to try to explain no-self in the way I see it now, anyone can feel free to critique it. There is nothing in me that cannot change. We try to identify ourselves with "my opinion" "my belief" "my idea" "my body". But what is my? Who is me? I can identify myself as my body. The something that I can look at in the mirror, one moment. I can say I see this, smell this, think this, am this... etc. But in the next moment will I still be seeing, smelling and thinking the same? No. Our percetions, thoughts, opinions, etc., are always changing. Thus, there is nothing in this body that I can label permanent. I can see no-self in this way... that there is nothing in me that will always last, in fact everything in me can and will change eventually. That is the me as a baby isn't the me of now.
I guess the only thing that I could bump heads with is that I am here. This person, though constantly changing is here now. I can see myself in the mirror, etc. So though there is no permanent self, I have a body, a look, opinions, etc.
Yet, I think I can see what no-self is getting at. The five skandhas (as I learned it- I assume the same thing as 'khandas') are in themselves growing as well as deteriorating at any given time. And we cling to this me, and what people think of this me, and how this me looks, etc. This is getting attactched to something that is always changing, thus, there is no point in doing so. It would be like trying to make a shooting star last forever. It's there, then it's gone. Just like us... but it still was there. I can label it shooting star, though the shooting star is always changing. Like a river, always changing, but still labeled river. (The last part is me clinging to existance but accepting that my existance will end... heheh )
Okay, how does it exist then?
Also, I heard there is self and no-self. What does that mean
Wow, Ashley! I think your understanding is amazing. I wish I'd had your insight when I was your age.
I'm just starting to scratch the intellectual surface of the not-self teaching. I know that understanding that teaching in the spiritual/experiential sense requires insight through meditation but I'm still a beginner meditator and only do awareness of the breath in meditation. But as an intellectual concept I think you're pretty much bang on, especially when you said, "...we cling to this me, and what people think of this me, and how this me looks, etc. This is getting attactched to something that is always changing, thus, there is no point in doing so."
When I said that we exist but not like we think we do I meant in the permanent, unchanging sense. We do exist though, obviously. Like you said, you can see yourself in the mirror. It's the way we think of ourselves that doesn't accord with reality. We think of ourselves as permanent, non-changing entities and that's just obviously wrong.
We also think of things as 'me' and 'mine' which is equally false. So I also work on the not-self teaching in the sense that I work on applying the Three characteristics to all phenomena (impermanence, unsatisfactoriness [or having the potential to cause suffering] and not-self). For example, when anger arises in me I try not to immediately identify with it, I try not to think, "I'm angry, this anger is mine..." etc. etc. I try to view it as an impermanent phenomenon that has arisen due to conditions and I look at how it causes suffering. Instead of getting swept away with it or trying to suppress it or run away from it, I try to look at it as realistically as possible. I know it's impermanent so I know it's going to pass. In the meantime I might as well do something productive with it while it's here, you know?
It also helps a lot when I apply not-self to people and to my pets. For example, when I think of Pinky dying I try to catch myself thinking of him as 'my' Pinky, 'my' cat, 'my' little baby (as embarrassing as that is...:rolleyes:) and adjust my thinking to accord with reality better. So I'll practice thinking of him as 'a cat', 'a cat that came from somewhere and lives here in this house with other beings', and that's all. I try to strip it all down, strip away all the things I've added to the picture that don't actually exist. Pinky's not really my baby, even though I tell him he is about a thousand times a day. He's not really a 'cat' either, in the strictest sense. 'Cat' is just another conventional term and I try to keep that in mind as well.
Basically I'm trying to straddle both worlds, the conventional one in which there is a 'Brigid' who has a cat she loves and calls 'her baby', and the real world in which there are two beings neither of whom own the other but simply live in the same place.
So it's only at this basic level that I'm dealing with the not-self teaching. I'm only just starting to get my head around it. But even that little bit of all understanding has helped.
I try to think of Molly as neither My Dog nor A Dog, she's an equal. Everything's equal :smilec: That's way I hate eating fish, and even eggs and milk, but I'm taking one step at a time....
Well Joe... when you look at the six realms of existance, animals are in the upper realm, but don't have enough good karma to be in the human realm, which is one of the realms capable of reaching enlightenment. I don't think there is a need for hierarchy, but I don't think animals are necesarilly "equal" in terms of karma, and such, but there lives are equal to the value of our lives... in my opinion. I am not sure if you even believe in rebirth though.... :-P
Yeah, I do, but nor 'realms'. Maybe on a different planet but not in a different realm. I'm more of an 'elective' Buddhist. I found that out via a Wiccan who said she's an elective Wiccan and I asked what it meant.
Hahah, okay. If there aren't realms, why would karma matter then..? Just out of curiosity... it is your practice, believe in what you wish to believe, of course!
I believe we climb the evolutionary ladder with little breaks inbetween to give your soul a wee rest and back in the car you go. At the end is nirvarna-end of suffering-some place really something or whatever. It's a mixture of Buddhism, Wicca, and Myopinionism
Haha, I have no idea what floats my boat. I think Karma is more of a now kind of reaction. Like if I hurt someone, I would have to deal with the consequences.
And heck, with all animals are equal, you can throw some Jainism into the mix... hehe A budd-wic-ainist... heh heh, hmm.. lol.
Actually the animal realm is considered a lower rebirth because animals do not have the intelligence required to practice and attain enlightenment. Usually rebirth in the animal realm is considered to occur when a person lives in denial or willfully ignores what is going on in his/her life, just like rebirth in the hell realms is a result of anger/hatred/violence. Of course, there are various ways of looking at the six realms. You could also look at them as states of mind. I know I go through all the realms mentally about 64 times a day, on average!
For sure . I know some do think of it as states of mind... but I never said I believe in them either... hehe, I don't know what I believe in just yet. Right it's like animal, hungry ghost and hell realm in the lower, and human, and then upper and lower level gods, the names I cannot remember right now, devas? . I forgot
Each of the realms represents a particular emotion or state of being. Hell realms represent hatred/anger, hungry ghost realms represent greed/desire, animal realms represent ignorance, jealous gods represent envy, gods represent pride. Can you guess what the human realm represents?
If you die and become one will you make all my wishes come true? Like, If I ask for a lot of money and such. Maybe you can appear on those vintage lamps, and I would rub it and you would appear, and you would have a looong mustache, and a turbant, and grand me three wishes.
I don't get this, are Buddhists atheist or not or what?
Iono. Are you a Buddhist? Are you an atheist? I believe in gods. I wanna be one with really looong hair, really long ok? And Nagas would climb from ocean to heaven on my locks when its springtime for heavenly holidays (those silly willy Nagas, can't afford to be with us gods all the time...lol.)
But seriously, the six realms in scripture are literal ok?
Don't worry neither do I and I don't blame you for it, you warned us. Just observe the world and question why things are the way they are. Following this pattern you will discern your universe very well.
Hello everyone!
I will just share some basic stuff first... I would like everyone to know where I am coming from.
Well, I am Ashley. I live in Colorado with my family and I am 16 years old. I know I am not that young. I am know I am not that old. But here I am, in the middle of things now.
I was raised Christian, but never really was a firm believer, and was always questioning it (though I think it is a lovely religion, it has changed a lot since Jesus was born and is now no longer, imho, exactly what it was meant to be.)
I have recently stumbled over buddhism, and love everything about it. I study buddhist texts and ideas more than I study my school materials... not sure the teachers appreciate it but I can't help it, I want to learn more and practice more and apply more. Buddhism was meant for me, like it was meant for us all, once we realize it, we all have a buddha nature, hehe
Anyway, I had tried talking to my mom about buddhism at one point awhile back, and though I didn't mention my interest, but rather a friend of mines, she didn't like the idea of it and changed the topic quickly. So my mom does not know that I like buddhism, nor that I practice it. I feel like I am hiding something when she looks at me with that "You've changed..." look. It's also really inconvenient that my interest is so high, yet I have to sneak around with buddhist books, and cannot go to a center or temple... not the end of the world, though I would very much like to go.
What are some of your guys' stories with meeting and getting into buddhism? Any family trouble? School trouble? etc. I would love to hear, if you would like to share!
Thanks and with much metta,
Ashley
Count me in ! Well, my name is Robert and I live near Bucharest. 20 km south of it actually , and yeah, I don't love the daily commute.I'll be 18 years old in March, but I don't feel like it. I prefer to remain a child, to have same playful mind of a 10 year old kid and to also have the wisdom of an old man .
Now, I have also been raised in a Christian family, orthodox christian in fact, but I never considered myself to be a true Christian like other Romanians consider themselves to be. Well, I found out about buddhism about 8 years ago when I watched a Romanian documentary show ( something rare in this country) and saw something that caught my attention ( I remember I was playing in the moment they aired that documentary) , and that thing was a golden statue of Buddha. At first, I thought it was a big god , like Jesus , the only difference being it's appearance. Then , I saw something that made me interested a lot more. The buddhist monks meditated. Well, back then , this meditation was regarded as alien. In my mind something was not ok, meaning that I was used to see monks chanting a boring sermon, which would make you fall asleep in an instant ( orthodox style), while these monks did , practically nothing. No boring sermons, no nothing. Just sitting around.
When I grew up I found out what meditation really means. This happened one year ago. And, one year ago, I decided that I should convert to buddhism , and here I am now , a closet buddhist !
My family isn't interested in my Buddha, enlightenment-Nirvana stuff , but they always tease me when I get angry( I get angry quite often, and I cool down in the next second ) saying " What does Buddha say ? Didn't He say that you should think postive ?" and stuff liek that.
About school, buddhism turned me in the "friendly alien" kind of student. I mean, they always tease me about " Ha-ha - Buddhism, Nirvana , bulls**t! Quit it, it's no use!" but I got used to that and I always smile and say "You know that I'm too lazy to quit it !". But , in general, buddhism was for me like a wonder-medicine. It healed my inner wounds in no time. Well, if you want to hear the story, give me sign :D;) !
Comments
What's the Jershire show you're talking about Shenpen? I have never heard of it, lol.
its this really awful show on MTV.
By awful I mean awesome, I only like my TV really putrid.
Love & Peace
Joe
Palzang
So how is everyone doing? lol.
Palzang, as you're so keen to know, it's a TV show animation on CBBC (the older-kids channel for the UK) about a small flock of sheep led by Shaun the Sheep on a small farm, they get into all sorts of funny adventures and Blitzer the sheep dog tries to keep an eye on them. The farm also had a moody bull, fat ducks, evil pigs, and a goat that eats litterally anything, it's very mature :cool: CBBC has more mature shows of course, but Shaun is the silliest and immaturest
Love & Peace
Joe
Palzang
... and live in castles. What a load of popplesquash :nonono:
Well my week is good. The weekend is going too fast
Popplesquash? Heh, alright then
Palzang
Hahahahah.
I have a question... why is there no-self?
When we first conceived of the basic sense of "self" and "other" is when desire first arose. When there was no sense of "self" and "other" there was no desire because you lacked nothing. It's only when you create this artificial "self" that you conceive of as being apart from everything else that desire can arise because then you no longer have everything.
Hope that helps. It is a difficult thing to get your mind around.
Palzang
Thanks for explaining that to me palzang. And if why isn't important then how? How are we all interconnected? How do we know we are? I think your explanation requires for me to let go of a self to accept it... but it's hard to see the truth in your statement when I cannot neccesarilly prove it myself.
How are we interconnected? Well, we're not interconnected. Interconnected would mean little "me's" connected somehow. There really is no separation. And how? That is something you have to discover for yourself through your practice. It's not something you can explain.
Palzang
Well, fine then! Humph!
Okay, what about being mindful? How do you stay in the moment? Is that not thinking about the past or future, or what? Silly questions, just curious...
Do you now? I can totally see it... hmm...
I study and practice Theravada Buddhism so my answer will be a bit different from Palzang's but the way I've been learning about not-self according to my school is through the khandas. They are the five things that make up a person. They basically comprise the physical body and mind. They are: form, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness.
The Buddha taught that these five things make up the human being and no everlasting 'self' or 'soul' could be found amongst them. So although we do exist and for conventional reasons we must refer to each other as 'selves' in order for society to function, in reality the 'self' that we refer to is not a permanent entity and does not exist as we think it does.
For example, I was called 'Brigid' when I was born and all my life I've been identified, and have identified myself, as this 'Brigid'. But that name is only a convention, an agreement we've all made for the sake of social convenience. When I look at myself and the five aggregates (or khandas) that make me up, I can't find anything in those five aggregates that is a lasting 'Brigid'. My body doesn't make me 'Brigid', nor do my feelings, or the way I perceive things, or the ideas and beliefs I have, nor my consciousness of sight, sounds, smells, tastes, and touch. None of these things actually point to an everlasting entity that is 'Brigid'. All of these khandas are impermanent. In fact, not only will all these things die one day, they are constantly in a state of change while living. So nothing that makes up this 'Brigid' can be held onto, even from one second to the next.
I'm a beginner so I'll post a link that can actually teach you something about not-self. I'm only describing my idea of it so far and it could well be a little off so it needs to be researched and contemplated by you so you can come to an understanding that will satisfy you.
Here's a link with some good stuff that I've found helpful:
Anatta (from Access to Insight)
But by all means, have a good search through other online resources and books. The Buddha's teaching on anatta has been the most important teaching for me because it has resulted in the greatest lessening of my suffering.
I am going to try to explain no-self in the way I see it now, anyone can feel free to critique it. There is nothing in me that cannot change. We try to identify ourselves with "my opinion" "my belief" "my idea" "my body". But what is my? Who is me? I can identify myself as my body. The something that I can look at in the mirror, one moment. I can say I see this, smell this, think this, am this... etc. But in the next moment will I still be seeing, smelling and thinking the same? No. Our percetions, thoughts, opinions, etc., are always changing. Thus, there is nothing in this body that I can label permanent. I can see no-self in this way... that there is nothing in me that will always last, in fact everything in me can and will change eventually. That is the me as a baby isn't the me of now.
I guess the only thing that I could bump heads with is that I am here. This person, though constantly changing is here now. I can see myself in the mirror, etc. So though there is no permanent self, I have a body, a look, opinions, etc.
Yet, I think I can see what no-self is getting at. The five skandhas (as I learned it- I assume the same thing as 'khandas') are in themselves growing as well as deteriorating at any given time. And we cling to this me, and what people think of this me, and how this me looks, etc. This is getting attactched to something that is always changing, thus, there is no point in doing so. It would be like trying to make a shooting star last forever. It's there, then it's gone. Just like us... but it still was there. I can label it shooting star, though the shooting star is always changing. Like a river, always changing, but still labeled river. (The last part is me clinging to existance but accepting that my existance will end... heheh
Okay, how does it exist then?
Also, I heard there is self and no-self. What does that mean
Ashley, do you have 'Hollyoaks' in America? That pretty much somes up England and Wales
Love & Peace
Jellybean
I'm just starting to scratch the intellectual surface of the not-self teaching. I know that understanding that teaching in the spiritual/experiential sense requires insight through meditation but I'm still a beginner meditator and only do awareness of the breath in meditation. But as an intellectual concept I think you're pretty much bang on, especially when you said, "...we cling to this me, and what people think of this me, and how this me looks, etc. This is getting attactched to something that is always changing, thus, there is no point in doing so."
When I said that we exist but not like we think we do I meant in the permanent, unchanging sense. We do exist though, obviously. Like you said, you can see yourself in the mirror. It's the way we think of ourselves that doesn't accord with reality. We think of ourselves as permanent, non-changing entities and that's just obviously wrong.
We also think of things as 'me' and 'mine' which is equally false. So I also work on the not-self teaching in the sense that I work on applying the Three characteristics to all phenomena (impermanence, unsatisfactoriness [or having the potential to cause suffering] and not-self). For example, when anger arises in me I try not to immediately identify with it, I try not to think, "I'm angry, this anger is mine..." etc. etc. I try to view it as an impermanent phenomenon that has arisen due to conditions and I look at how it causes suffering. Instead of getting swept away with it or trying to suppress it or run away from it, I try to look at it as realistically as possible. I know it's impermanent so I know it's going to pass. In the meantime I might as well do something productive with it while it's here, you know?
It also helps a lot when I apply not-self to people and to my pets. For example, when I think of Pinky dying I try to catch myself thinking of him as 'my' Pinky, 'my' cat, 'my' little baby (as embarrassing as that is...:rolleyes:) and adjust my thinking to accord with reality better. So I'll practice thinking of him as 'a cat', 'a cat that came from somewhere and lives here in this house with other beings', and that's all. I try to strip it all down, strip away all the things I've added to the picture that don't actually exist. Pinky's not really my baby, even though I tell him he is about a thousand times a day.
Basically I'm trying to straddle both worlds, the conventional one in which there is a 'Brigid' who has a cat she loves and calls 'her baby', and the real world in which there are two beings neither of whom own the other but simply live in the same place.
So it's only at this basic level that I'm dealing with the not-self teaching. I'm only just starting to get my head around it. But even that little bit of all understanding has helped.
Love & Peace
Jellybean
Love & Peace
Jellybean
Love & Peace
Jellybean
And heck, with all animals are equal, you can throw some Jainism into the mix... hehe A budd-wic-ainist... heh heh, hmm.. lol.
Palzang
Palzang
Palzang
Do you believe in reincarnation palzang?
And if the six realms only represented states of being, why do we already have animals?
I don't get this, are Buddhists atheist or not or what?
If you die and become one will you make all my wishes come true? Like, If I ask for a lot of money and such. Maybe you can appear on those vintage lamps, and I would rub it and you would appear, and you would have a looong mustache, and a turbant, and grand me three wishes.
Iono. Are you a Buddhist? Are you an atheist? I believe in gods. I wanna be one with really looong hair, really long ok? And Nagas would climb from ocean to heaven on my locks when its springtime for heavenly holidays (those silly willy Nagas, can't afford to be with us gods all the time...lol.)
But seriously, the six realms in scripture are literal ok?
Don't worry neither do I and I don't blame you for it, you warned us. Just observe the world and question why things are the way they are. Following this pattern you will discern your universe very well.
Love & Peace
Jellybean
Count me in
Now, I have also been raised in a Christian family, orthodox christian in fact, but I never considered myself to be a true Christian like other Romanians consider themselves to be. Well, I found out about buddhism about 8 years ago when I watched a Romanian documentary show ( something rare in this country) and saw something that caught my attention ( I remember I was playing in the moment they aired that documentary) , and that thing was a golden statue of Buddha. At first, I thought it was a big god , like Jesus , the only difference being it's appearance. Then , I saw something that made me interested a lot more. The buddhist monks meditated. Well, back then , this meditation was regarded as alien. In my mind something was not ok, meaning that I was used to see monks chanting a boring sermon, which would make you fall asleep in an instant ( orthodox style), while these monks did , practically nothing. No boring sermons, no nothing. Just sitting around.
When I grew up I found out what meditation really means. This happened one year ago. And, one year ago, I decided that I should convert to buddhism , and here I am now , a closet buddhist
My family isn't interested in my Buddha, enlightenment-Nirvana stuff , but they always tease me when I get angry( I get angry quite often, and I cool down in the next second ) saying " What does Buddha say ? Didn't He say that you should think postive ?" and stuff liek that.
About school, buddhism turned me in the "friendly alien" kind of student. I mean, they always tease me about " Ha-ha - Buddhism, Nirvana , bulls**t! Quit it, it's no use!" but I got used to that and I always smile and say "You know that I'm too lazy to quit it !". But , in general, buddhism was for me like a wonder-medicine. It healed my inner wounds in no time. Well, if you want to hear the story, give me sign