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Conditioned responses - being aware
Mountains
Veteran
Thank you all for your kind responses to my feeling overwhelmed with Buddhism. I think I knew already that simply following the noble eightfold path, the four noble truths, and taking refuge in the three jewels is what I must concentrate on for the moment, but it's always good to hear what others have to say. Thank you.
As I have begin, ever so slightly, to become more self-aware, I find that I chastise myself when I find myself having a conditioned response to a situation. It's taken me a lifetime to 'learn' these responses, but it seems that every time I have a thought (particularly a negative thought) about a person or a situation, my "conscious self" (is that the right term?) gives "me" a whack on the knuckles for having it.
I know that we can't help our conditioned responses, but we can (and I do) seek to be rid of them as I try to follow the eightfold path, etc. Is it "normal" to chastise one's self like this? Does it accomplish anything? Is just being aware that a response or a thought is there enough to begin to extinguish it? It doesn't seem so. Those 'knee jerk' responses pop up seemingly of their own free will.
Thank you for your kind thoughts on this..
Mtns
As I have begin, ever so slightly, to become more self-aware, I find that I chastise myself when I find myself having a conditioned response to a situation. It's taken me a lifetime to 'learn' these responses, but it seems that every time I have a thought (particularly a negative thought) about a person or a situation, my "conscious self" (is that the right term?) gives "me" a whack on the knuckles for having it.
I know that we can't help our conditioned responses, but we can (and I do) seek to be rid of them as I try to follow the eightfold path, etc. Is it "normal" to chastise one's self like this? Does it accomplish anything? Is just being aware that a response or a thought is there enough to begin to extinguish it? It doesn't seem so. Those 'knee jerk' responses pop up seemingly of their own free will.
Thank you for your kind thoughts on this..
Mtns
0
Comments
No. :-)
Being aware of them is a big step forward, but you're right, it's not enough to eliminate them. All phenomena arise because of causes and conditions. If the conditions are there, then whenever the causes arise, the unwanted response will arise as well.
Different schools of Buddhism have different ways of dealing with these responses, but they all seem to have some way of dealing with them. It must be a common problem. :-)
you cannot eliminate responding to stuff happening you can transform how you respond, unless of course your dead or unconscious.
the Buddha didn't quit responding to stuff happening nor did he teach that. As
I imagine it the teachings are about transforming our relationship to stuff happening - the natural way we respond through discipline, which, by the way, may be to simply sit in mindful awareness.
when there is seeing we do not fall into the 'thing that we see' but stay with 'the seeing' mindfully (namely we are with the understanding that 'this too will pass')
when there is hearing..........
when there is feeling of taste/smell/touch............etc.
hard but can:)
The thing is, I think transforming emotions in that moment requires that one struggles with an emotion. Not accepting or judging sets one up for the self-doubt and negative attitude the OP suggested. Good emotions vs bad emotions.
Sitting in mindful awareness on the other hand, means no struggling, no judging. The transformation may occur, but not as a consequence of a persons volition.
I would suggest you can eliminate responding without dying or being unconscious. By being open, accepting and non-judgemental, you do eliminate the need to respond.
All we have to really work with is volitional action. That's what conditions us. That's the simple beauty of the Buddhadharma.
Try it sometime.
That makes sense, too. LOL
Dear Mountains
Sometimes practicing Buddhism is like opening a long lost or forgetten curtain.
From behind the stage we peek, looking anxiously, anxiously at what arises.
And what arises is this: greed, hatred and delusion. Ergo, wisdom, spirituality and enlightenment. When has it ever been different, dear one?
Practice zazen. Then over time, even the castagations about what arises can settle down themself.
With best wishes,
Abu
Thanks for all these responses. I guess my dilemma comes from this: when something happens, an emotional/mental response rooted in my past experience comes to the fore. Often before I'm even aware that this conditioned response has occurred, I've blurted out something or done something that makes the situation worse. If I were able (and maybe I will be able to with practice) sense the conditioned response and then short circuit the built-in response to it I would be able to avoid the negativity of my response. But there's the rub - that's really, really hard to do!
Ideas?
Mtns
each hearing, next to no time there is knowing
each feeling, next to no time there is knowing
we always react to this 'knowing'
try to grasp the difference between the seeing and the knowing followed by the seeing is imprtant in finding the key to stop conditioning our future:)
I learned a three step approach to working with this kind of stuff.
1. Awareness - Shamatha training to accomplish vivid awareness of the arising, enduring, and passing of conditioned responses to stuff happening. The easiest level of training is clear awareness of the response as it passes. This is the place to start. At this level one simply trains to be very tranquil while remaining sensitive to whatever's going on in the body or mind - body in the body, feelings in the feelings, thoughts in the thoughts, etc. without attempting to stop or control these things in any way. This in itself takes some discipline because we have a tendency to want to "fix" what we believe is broken. To achieve success in this endeavor one must resist the urge to latch on to anything and just observe with a kind of joyful humor; remembering it's just the play of stuff happening and by this process you're dealing with it.
2. Control - Once vivid awareness of responses is accomplished one may work with karma to begin conditioning the self to alternative ways of responding to internal or external triggers. In this process one begins to pay some attention to what they may have sensed (seen, felt, tasted, touched, smelled, thought) in association with a certain conditioned response and tests alternative responses to those triggering events. This approach requires one to begin gaining a clear understanding and disciplined application of consciously chosen volitional actions; like applying compassion to stuff happening which may have previously given rise to anger, etc. In order to do this one may need to train for some time to cultivate strong compassion through specific methods; like Lojong Training, etc. (their are many techniques for accomplishing this in all traditions)
3. Skill - Once one has found alternatives that work for them the process of habituation begins. This is the process of embodying compassion, etc. through analytical meditation training and mindfulness. It's the way to transform responses and "be", in a new way, with stuff happening.
There's an old story that goes something like this - I walked down the street and fell into a hole. I didn't want to but I did. I thought, "I don't want to do that again." The next day I walked down the same street and fell into the same hole. This time I decided to do something about it, so the next time I walked down that street I paid really close attention to the hole and fell in again! The next time I walked down the street I made it half way around the edge before I fell in. Finally, I walked down another street.
It's like we're conditioned to walk down the same ole street and fall into that same ole hole over and over again. We may decide to change it but as long as we choose to go down the same ole street we're likely to fall into the same ole hole. So, if I get mad when certain things happen, I'll keep being mad if I don't change directions - change the way I go (my karmically imprinted response) by taking another street (doing things differently).
Good Luck
I wish you well.
What I saw then was this BIG spider. I was terrified, so I killed it (On my defense it was probably a Brazilian Wandering Spider, with a chance of seriously evenomating me, so we were equals fighting for the same territory, ironically over the sounds of fight from a kung fu movie :P). For the next week, I couldn't sleep well and I was startled by the silliest things.
My point is: the spot and the spider were the same, but only when I realized its true nature, or potential, I started worrying about it. If you know that when you get triggered bad things happen, perhaps you should focus more on this side, by giving it some thought, than on the immediate satisfaction of your habitual reaction.
Yeah. As they say, old habits are hard to break. Many of our habitual tendencies are deep rooted. Being aware is a good start, I think. Eventually through practice, you may see them as they arise more often. I think you've got the idea though!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csyCrcpDs58
With continued practice, the possibilities are much broader than this.
_/\_
Yeah its normal
What I do for this is metta practice. I find it makes me generally more forgiving of everything. For me it changed my reaction to negativity (or annoyingly repetitive thoughts and ideas) from:
"Damnit!"
to
"lol I saw that, you
Then the thoughts can stay the same (not that they will) but the reaction is radically different.
Continued practice transforms the base (basis) of momentary manifestation, which may include transforming the base (cause) for the manifestation of emotional response. This occurs by volitional action, which may be Shikantaza and Shikantaza may become the base and response, in time.
I imagine transforming the base so that no response occurs is beyond human existence. Just try not breathing for a couple of minutes.
I think you will find that if you continue your practice, you will see that more is possible than you now imagine, or posit.
The first part of your post sounds like theory jumbled which can happen
Well wishes,
Abu
Thank you for questioning my understanding. I'm attempting to write from the heart in this forum, as simply and briefly as I can. Kind of as a practice. As far as how I've come to form my own heartfelt understanding on this particular topic, well, it kinda arises from, hum, 30 years of study, contemplation and meditation with dependent origination; especially the twelve links and of course about 15 years of study and practice with Abhidharma and about 10 years with Prajnaparamita.
I'd be happy to write volumes of blah blah blah and edit quotes from authoritative sources, if that may satisfy you. Although, I'm not really interested in doing that. Given this, may I recommend that you put some time and joyous effort into the study and practice of things such as these?
What's the basis of your understanding and judgment?
Contemplating my last response, some disagreement arose.
May I rephrase.
Floating_Abu,
My understanding on this particular topic arises from study, contemplation and meditation with dependent origination; especially the twelve links, Abhidharma and Prajnaparamita.
Will you please share your understanding of these teachings and where I may have misunderstandings?
I mean no disrespect to your understandings or studies. May it all continue to flourish.
Best wishes
Abu
Abu,
I obviously felt a little irritated and expressed that in my first response, sorry. I'm still working on gracious tolerance. I can't imagine a good reason not to question another's understanding of things. I guess what I wish for is that those who question offer well investigated, analyzed, and verified information that clearly shows where some misunderstanding may have arisen in the mind of the one being questioned.
In this case, I'm asking for some discussion of the points presented in reference to how they may not accord with my understanding of dependent origination; especially in light of the Twelve Links, Abhidarma, and Prajnaparamita.
In Gassho,
Bob
I am no longer so interested in academic affairs but might be happy to do so if I was inclined at the moment, or had the time.
I apologise I am not interested in this at the moment. But allow me to offer one quote:
Your practice and sharings are respected.
With best wishes,
Abu
Best wishes, and thanks for the graciousness.
Abu
A few years ago, while engaged in some formal study with an elder, I was continually admonished about speaking in 'Fruit' terms when our topics were 'Path' subjects.
That's where I got this idea.
It took me some time to 'get it'.
In Gassho
Not just simply and literally nonsense, but the kind of knee jerk nonsense and received uncritical opinion that is repeated ad infinitum on Buddhist websites, and is never heard in the throws and struggles of actual real Sangha conducted by those whose knowledge is not just confined to soundbites.
Or is it some thing you have heard from those who have heard it from those who have heard it? Have you actually realised it personally ? Have you actualised it yourself ? Or is it a view that you have encountered and that appeals to you ?
It is a realm of endless blessings.
Gassho,
Abu
Are you by any chance the same Floating Abu that used to post on E Sangha ? The one who just a year or two before that Forum folded wrote saying that they were in despair because they couldnt sit for more than a few minutes ? The same person who was banned for disruption ?
So do we assume that in the intervening months you have actualised , have realised the path ?
You are free to assume as you wish. It is after all everyone's prerogative and capacity and whilst all or some of us do this, some of us have a practice which is genuinely transformative in being, and manifest in the heart of goodwill. It is still a possibility for
everyone, even those amongst us who still harbour ill will and suspicion.
Good journey to you, may you be blessed also.
Best wishes,
Abu
If the Path WERE the fruit we would of couse not need to transform anything..but leaving aside that quibble, lets not run before we can walk, or be too holy before next tuesday kiddo. And lets not assume that the world is hanging on our words of wisdom while we are needy ourselves. And lets not assume that a wake up call equals ill will and suspicion.
He observes it.
At least lets get the story straight.
Stop attachin yoself to da weeeeeeeerds mang.. and Party smilies are freakin' sweet, don't diss the party smilies! har har