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Virgin Buddhists

edited March 2010 in General Banter
Would anyone like to try this with me? It can be completely separate to your school and practice etc, more of a large scale Buddhist thought experiment:)

The idea is we discuss Buddhism as if there was no written doctrine or school, just Buddha Dharma and Sanga.

It could be interesting and rewarding to our personal practices:)

Mat

PS I am no longer arguing here.
PPS Sorry for arguing.
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Comments

  • edited March 2010
    Thank You Mat, I feel happy and excited that we may do this together as a kind of imaginary online Sangha. :D
  • edited March 2010
    Sounds interesting to me.
  • skydancerskydancer Veteran
    edited March 2010
    MatSalted wrote: »
    Would anyone like to try this with me? It can be completely separate to your school and practice etc, more of a large scale Buddhist thought experiment:)

    The idea is we discuss Buddhism as if there was no written doctrine or school, just Buddha Dharma and Sanga.

    It could be interesting and rewarding to our personal practices:)

    Mat

    PS I am no longer arguing here.
    PPS Sorry for arguing.
    Buddha, Dharma, Sangha

    Sounds good to me. I take refuge in the three jewels.
  • edited March 2010
    Why do some people use Sanskrit and others use Pali? :D
  • skydancerskydancer Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Anupassī wrote: »
    Why do some people use Sanskrit and others use Pali? :D
    It depends on the Buddhist lineage. Pali is the older language. There is another old language called Lenza.
  • edited March 2010
    ...pardon? Sanskrit is older than Pali. :O
  • edited March 2010
    Has there just been a hijacking here?:scratch:

    How does this offer me instruction on 'how to bake a cake'?
  • edited March 2010
    Oh, I was just curious, from a non-doctrinal perspective, as to why two different (although related) languages are used.

    No hijacking intended! :)
  • skydancerskydancer Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Anupassī wrote: »
    ...pardon? Sanskrit is older than Pali. :O
    Pali was the language used by the Buddha.
  • edited March 2010
    so, how do you know this through your personal practice? and what does it mean in your life?

    hijack back!!
  • skydancerskydancer Veteran
    edited March 2010
    The tripitaka is in the Pali language.
  • edited March 2010
    how did you verify this in practice?
  • skydancerskydancer Veteran
    edited March 2010
    how did you verify this in practice?
    Are you talking to me Brother Bob?

    I've chanted in Pali, in the early years of my Buddhist meditation training. I recieved my first Buddhist teachings based on text that had been translated into english from the Pali language.

    Sorry but I feel like I'm likely to piss you off no matter what I answer.
  • edited March 2010
    i'm not pissed. i'm making a small effort to keep stuff on track, in a smart assed kinda way.
  • skydancerskydancer Veteran
    edited March 2010
    i'm not pissed. i'm making a small effort to keep stuff on track, in a smart assed kinda way.
    Ok. I'm just getting to know you.
  • edited March 2010
    yup, and i you. ain't it grand!! :wavey:
  • edited March 2010
    Has there just been a hijacking here?:scratch:

    Guess so:)

    I went to sleep all excited about the prospect!:)

    So where would the best place to start be?

    We could just dip in ad hoc or try to discuss systematically?

    Warm regards

    mat
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited March 2010
    What are the paramiters of the discussion? What can be included and excluded? Personal experience? Personal observations of nature? Science? etc.
  • edited March 2010
    Nios wrote: »
    What are the paramiters of the discussion? What can be included and excluded? Personal experience? Personal observations of nature? Science? etc.

    Hi Nios


    That's a good question and one I am not sure anyone could answer. Maybe we should just start with nothing and see?

    So in the first stages just assume nothing, be raw and philosophical, and then as we develop on what we learn there the important human stuff, like practice and experience, seem bound to follow.

    I think one sure-fire rule of our talks should be that we don't talk Rebirth! We don't need to discuss the middle path, nobody can be sure either way and as we have all seen it's a destructive chat in Buddhism:)

    What do you think?:)

    Mat
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Hi Mat,

    I'm not too worried about the rebirth thing (though I'm sure it will rear it's ugly head). I just thought that if there is a clear structure to conversation, then there'll be less arguments (?)

    Nios.
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Where does one start? History maybe?

    Just trying to throw some ideas around :) Get the ball rolling
  • edited March 2010
    Nios wrote: »
    Where does one start? History maybe?

    Just trying to throw some ideas around :) Get the ball rolling


    I think the question "Are all things impermanent?" might be a good place to start (Ending up with an answer like brother bobs on the rb thread?)

    Imagine we were in the deer park the day after the Buddha left and we hear that one thing he proclaimed was that all things are imperminenat.

    What does that mean? Is it true of all things? Can we imagine anything it isn't true of?

    We seem to experience it in every moment, maybe that's just peculiar to our moments and not all things?

    What do you think about these questions?:)

    mat
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Ok, I think I know what you're getting at. :)

    Are all subjects debatable accept rebirth?

    Nios.
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited March 2010
    MatSalted wrote: »
    Imagine we were in the deer park the day after the Buddha left and we hear that one thing he proclaimed was that all things are imperminenat.

    What does that mean? Is it true of all things? Can we imagine anything it isn't true of?

    How is imperminance defined?

    Nios.

    Edit: Sorry I seem to be nip-picking. I'll stop if it's bothersom :)
  • edited March 2010
    Nios wrote: »
    How is imperminance defined?

    Lets try to come up with a good definition:)

    Is impermanence the same as change?
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited March 2010
    I shall go away and think about it :)

    Update:

    I define the word "imperminance" as literally "not perminant". The way I understand it, in the buddhist sense is, all conditioned things are imperminant. I prefer the word "imperminant" rather than "change" because I think it hits us a bit harder. Things both change and are simply snuffed out of existance. "Imperminance" more of a wake-up call. :)
    This imperminance can be experienced on a relative level due to the things we see that arises and passes away, born and dies etc. For this reason, there is nothing in this life that we can cling to that will bring us lasting happiness because of imperminance, including buddhism, dharma, our ideas, thoughts, feelings etc
    I believe, people suffer when they think there is something that is perminant, be it a self, or an idea...etc
    I don't think this means we need to cut ourselves off from these things that make us happy, but that we must not cling to it and we must understand that both this feeling of happiness and this "item" (whatever it is) will both pass. From my experience, when we understand this with clarity, we enjoy and appreciate things a lot more.

    Hope that makes sense,

    Nios. :) Now I'll let other people chip in.
  • edited March 2010
    My personal definition is that all phenomena that I can observe (from mental states to physical objects) arise and pass away if I look long enough. Pretty basic, I suppose.
  • edited March 2010
    My personal definition is that all phenomena that I can observe (from mental states to physical objects) arise and pass away if I look long enough. Pretty basic, I suppose.

    Hi Ray

    Do you then think you can extrapolate to phenomenon you don't or cannot observe?

    Maybe some things never pass away?

    :)
  • edited March 2010
    This will sound incredibly self-centered, but if I can't or won't observe it, is it important to understand it in the context of ending my suffering?

    It all comes back to the "is there a reality outside of my perceptions" thing, doesn't it? :rolleyes:
    MatSalted wrote: »
    Hi Ray

    Do you then think you can extrapolate to phenomenon you don't or cannot observe?

    Maybe some things never pass away?

    :)
  • edited March 2010
    This will sound incredibly self-centered, but if I can't or won't observe it, is it important to understand it in the context of ending my suffering?

    It all comes back to the "is there a reality outside of my perceptions" thing, doesn't it? :rolleyes:


    Hi Ray,

    Be more open!:) We are not asking if its important but if its possible:)

    Can you imagine a universe that lasts for ever?

    Mat
  • edited March 2010
    Okay, I'll play...what does "lasts" mean? If "lasts" means to "statically exist", hasn't it changed substantially since I started typing this sentence, and therefore doesn't last for 1 second? :)
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    edited March 2010
    This will sound incredibly self-centered, but if I can't or won't observe it, is it important to understand it in the context of ending my suffering?

    It all comes back to the "is there a reality outside of my perceptions" thing, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

    No Rayfield, you are no more incredibly self-centered than the rest of us. You are clear-sighted and honest about it.

    But I would argue that if we can't or won't observe something, that might make it even more important to understand it in the context of ending our own suffering. Because it's those things we are blind to that have the potential to control us the most.
  • edited March 2010
    Okay, I'll play...what does "lasts" mean? If "lasts" means to "statically exist", hasn't it changed substantially since I started typing this sentence, and therefore doesn't last for 1 second? :)

    Ok, lets try going lower....

    Imagine a line that is infinite.

    It has no width or properties its just a line infinite in both directions if it is infinite one.

    This line doesn't seem to have change in either direction, does it?

    If it does what is changing?

    From every point the line goes on for ever, without end and maybe without change? Is that line permanent?
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited March 2010
    As long as the conditions necessary for the line remain, the line will remain. So what conditions are necessary for the line?
  • edited March 2010
    not1not2 wrote: »
    As long as the conditions necessary for the line remain, the line will remain. So what conditions are necessary for the line?

    Imagine the line is all there is, it is unconditional.

    In which case is the line permanent along it's length?

    It seems to be to me. For example it seems any statement that is true about any point on the line will be true of all points on the line. Can you think of any statements about a point that this isn't the case with?

    :)
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited March 2010
    MatSalted wrote: »
    Imagine the line is all there is, it is unconditional.

    In which case is the line permanent along it's length?

    It seems to be to me. For example it seems any statement that is true about any point on the line will be true of all points on the line. Can you think of any statements about a point that this isn't the case with?

    :)

    What is the line composed of? Is there an observer?
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited March 2010
    MatSalted wrote: »
    Imagine the line is all there is, it is unconditional.

    In which case is the line permanent along it's length?

    It seems to be to me. For example it seems any statement that is true about any point on the line will be true of all points on the line. Can you think of any statements about a point that this isn't the case with?

    :)

    :confused:

    So, are you saying you believe there are things that are perminant?
  • edited March 2010
    not1not2 wrote: »
    What is the line composed of? Is there an observer?

    Lets assume that there no observer and it is composed of anything we wish, at this level lets assume that's not relevant. So imagine its totally idealised/numerical:)
  • edited March 2010
    Nios wrote: »
    :confused:

    So, are you saying you believe there are things that are perminant?

    Nios, please read the chat with attention and please try to avoiding questions about what people believe, at least in this thread!:)

    Can you see how there may be benefit in starting in a totally idealised place first?:)
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited March 2010
    ok, so then if the conditions for the line to remain are permanent, then I can't think of a reason to not consider the line to be permanent.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited March 2010
    It's a thought experiment, Nios.
  • edited March 2010
    not1not2 wrote: »
    ok, so then if the conditions for the line to remain are permanent, then I can't think of a reason to not consider the line to be permanent.

    Ok, but is there a difference between the line being permanent and the line being infinite along its length?

    :)
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited March 2010
    MatSalted wrote: »
    Nios, please read the chat with attention and please try to avoiding questions about what people believe, at least in this thread!:)

    This is why I asked right from the get go what the paramiters of discussion were Mat. If you had told me right from the start to not ask questions about other peoples belief I would never have in the first place. I'm not psychic. :winkc:
    Can you see how there may be benefit in starting in a totally idealised place first?:)

    I don't understand this. :confused:
  • NiosNios Veteran
    edited March 2010
    not1not2 wrote: »
    It's a thought experiment, Nios.

    Maybe I'll sit this one out then and just watch. :)
  • edited March 2010
    sky dancer wrote: »
    It depends on the Buddhist lineage. Pali is the older language. There is another old language called Lenza.
    Actually Pali isnt necessarily older. The scriptures that are recorded in Pali may be older but the language itself is actually a Prakrit, colloquial equivalent of Sanskrit.
  • edited March 2010
    I have trouble with starting with the ideal...I'm an engineer; that doesn't exist. :p
  • skydancerskydancer Veteran
    edited March 2010
    What happened to discussing the buddha, dharma and sangha?
  • skydancerskydancer Veteran
    edited March 2010
    Actually Pali isnt necessarily older. The scriptures that are recorded in Pali may be older but the language itself is actually a Prakrit, colloquial equivalent of Sanskrit.
    The oldest Buddhist texts are in Pali. That made me assume that Pali is older than Sanskrit. Pali is the language that was preferred by the Buddha.

    There are subtle differences in what the word dhamma means in Pali vs dharma in Sanskrit.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited March 2010
    MatSalted wrote: »
    Ok, but is there a difference between the line being permanent and the line being infinite along its length?

    :)

    Infinite and permanent are two different issues. Infinite generally implies more of a spacial thing, and permanent implies more of a temporal thing.
  • not1not2not1not2 Veteran
    edited March 2010
    sky dancer wrote: »
    What happened to discussing the buddha, dharma and sangha?

    I'm assuming Mat is trying to get there from scratch somehow, but it might take a bit.
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