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thought experiments aside, according to Buddhism, for a line to be permanent, then it cannot arise due to conditions. It would have to exist as its own singular, independent entity and be self-existent. Buddhism says that no such thing exists in such a manner per the teaching of Anatman/Anatta.
ok. Here is a simple virgin Buddhist question for everyone. I have a beautiful dog named Dapple. I would like to figure out whether she is big or small. Compared to me she is small, but compared to her sqeaky toy she is big. Compared to our house she is even smaller, compared to a grain of sand she is even bigger. So is she big or small? What is her inherent size? What is her inherent measure?
I'm personally not interested in getting into this kind of discussion. I was imagining this new approach as speaking from the heart. Sharing our own stories of how we meet and work with these concepts in the fabric of our own everyday lives. Not as abstract objects somehow divorced from ourselves - out over there to be described in some intellectual way. This thread appears to have already started the same old back and forth arguments that led us all into hurtful dialog.
Therefore, I offer you two things. First I support Sky's post that perhaps it best to begin with the basis of being one who trains to be awakened. Having confidence in the concepts of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.
Second, I ask you to please share with me a story of how you directly met and realized, even if ever so briefly or vaguely stuff like 'impermanence'
In this regard, Sitting here I notice my breath. I breathe in I have a physical sensation of cold as the air moves across the outside edge of my left nostril. As that in-breath ends the sensation of cold at the left outside edge of my left nostril fades away. I imagine this as impermanence.
Richard, so how do you train with this? Please share a story that gives me some deeper insight into how you work with this in your life from your life?
ok. Here is a simple virgin Buddhist question for everyone. I have a beautiful dog named Dapple. I would like to figure out whether she is big or small. Compared to me she is small, but compared to her sqeaky toy she is big. Compared to our house she is even smaller, compared to a grain of sand she is even bigger. So is she big or small? What is her inherent size? What is her inherent measure?
I'm personally not interested in getting into this kind of discussion. I was imagining this new approach as speaking from the heart. Sharing our own stories of how we meet and work with these concepts in ou everyday lives. Not as abstract objects somehow divorced from ourselves - out over there to be described in some intellectual way. This thread has already started to have the same old back and forth arguments that has led us all into hurtful dialog.
Therefore, I offer you two things. First I support Sky's post that perhaps it best to begin with the basis of being one how trains to be awakened. Having confidence in the concepts of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.
Second, I ask you to please share with me a story of how you directly met and realized, even if ever so briefly or vaguely stuff like 'impermanence'
In this regard, Sitting here I notice my breath. I breathe in I have a physical sensation cold as the air moves across the outside edge of my left nostril. As that in-breath ends the sensation of cold at the left outside edge of my left nostril fades away. I imagine this as impermanence.
Get It?
Wishing All Well
I'm with you Brother Bob.
I just finished posting on the suicide thread. Suicide is what led me to the dharma. I lost my father in 1981 and I was in such anguish that the teachings on the Four Noble Truths went straight to my heart.
My first Buddhist retreat was at Breitenbush a year later. Two members of the Breitenbush staff died during that first retreat, and we retreatants were left on our own for a few days to sit and watch our breath because "you never know when your last one with be".
I was immersed in direct reflection on impermanence. My heart opened. I had been in shock over my dad's passing and I cried like a baby in front of 100 strangers. Yet, I felt completely held in loving regard while not speaking or even looking at another person.
Impermanence is no abstract topic in such an environment. Every day I take refuge in awakened mind, the path that leads to awakening and the companions on the path including those noble, more experienced guides.
To me virgin buddhism means to continually cultivate beginners mind, no matter how long I've been practicing meditation. Every day I sit on my cushion or go about my day is a new beginning.
Sky and all, it may be that we, as a community must model the behavior we wish for. I imagine this may take some commitment and strength to stay on track and not be drawn into the storm of over intellectualized argumentation.
Will you please just take whatever's being presented and make it the object of exploration based on your own living relationship with it?
Share your story?
This will be very challenging for those who live in their heads and can only relate to objects from that place.
Infinite and permanent are two different issues. Infinite generally implies more of a spacial thing, and permanent implies more of a temporal thing.
Hi
I agree that they are different but think that permanence is to do with sequence rather than time per se. eg if there was a sequence of 10101 that repeated a million times then we would say it was impermanent. Sequence seems more primitive than time?
Do you think this means that if there is sequence in any sense there is impermanence? Because the sequence is itself change?
ok. Here is a simple virgin Buddhist question for everyone. I have a beautiful dog named Dapple. I would like to figure out whether she is big or small. Compared to me she is small, but compared to her sqeaky toy she is big. Compared to our house she is even smaller, compared to a grain of sand she is even bigger. So is she big or small? What is her inherent size? What is her inherent measure?
To me virgin buddhism means to continually cultivate beginners mind, no matter how long I've been practicing meditation. Every day I sit on my cushion or go about my day is a new beginning.
Wow Sky, that thought gave me shivers. Impermanece can be used as a tool to help us out of bad habits. I never thought of it like that before, even though I have been trying to accomplish that in my practice.
I agree that they are different but think that permanence is to do with sequence rather than time per se. eg if there was a sequence of 10101 that repeated a million times then we would say it was impermanent. Sequence seems more primitive than time?
Do you think this means that if there is sequence in any sense there is impermanence? Because the sequence is itself change?
mat
If it is repeated, then that implies each sequence is a new sequence. That means that each individual sequence is impermanent. If it is just the same ol sequence sitting there, then you could attribute permanence.
Anyway, I quite liked Richard's and Sky River's posts. You've managed to create yet another philosophy/logic thread.
Mat the topic is virgin buddhists. You, yourself asked us to stick to the basics, like the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.
hi Sky
Yes, and can we please start from first principles, if that doesn't interest you then cant you just wait until we get to the more important real stuff?
Also, if you set up a hypothetical situation to be permanent, then it's going to be permanent. If you set one up a situation of impermanence, it's going to be an impermanent situation. If you try and mix the two together, you're going to come up with a mixed situation.
Sooo, while I realize you're trying to pinpoint the meaning of terms, do we need to do so in this way? It's pretty much cutting everyone who was excited about this topic out of the topic.
Yes, and can we please start from first principles, if that doesn't interest you then cant you just wait until we get to the more important real stuff?
Please dont be willfully negative about this:(
Mat
Mat--
I haven't to my knowledge posted one wilfully negative thought in this thread.
Isn't the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha one of the first principles?
I don't understand what you're doing. Can you see that some of us are interested in this topic out of our living practice?
You are a little too demanding in the way you want people to behave in discussions with you. And implying that Sky River is being willfully negative after you just dismissed her post just seems hypocritical. You need to stop projecting negativity.
Mat, a philosophical debate of the meaning of Impermanence is basic?? and sharing our stories of how we live with the concept of Buddha, Dharma, Sangha from the fabric of our own lives is not??
Sky don't quit!
We have to do this for the benefit of all!!
I'm sure you understand what's going on here.
Mat, you're apparently very locked into a certain state of mind. I will not abandon you and I will not quit.
I vow to continue to model what I imagine as correct behavior in regard to your original request no matter how much you express resistance.
Posting in a Buddhist forum is about give and take. What are you willing to give and take on this thread?
Tell me some stories about your meditation practice that deals with the basics. Inject that blazing intellect of yours with some metaphorical earth touching mudra.
You are a little too demanding in the way you want people to behave in discussions with you. And implying that Sky River is being willfully negative after you just dismissed her post just seems hypocritical. You need to stop projecting negativity.
I agree that they are different but think that permanence is to do with sequence rather than time per se. eg if there was a sequence of 10101 that repeated a million times then we would say it was impermanent. Sequence seems more primitive than time?
What does this have to do with our own personal experience of dukkha?
What I experience firsthand has all proven to be impermanent. When I see impermanence, and my clinging to that which is impermanent, I see the hold samsara has over me. It gives me reason to practice.
Do you then think you can extrapolate to phenomenon you don't or cannot observe?
If I cannot observe something, then I'll leave it at this: it's not pertinent to my Buddhist practice and all anyone can do is theorize and speculate endlessly about it.
I would like to say that the logical understanding of impermanence can be a liberating exercise, Buddhism is lived and practiced on the ground. We apply it to our lives and reflect on its truth. Here is a good essay/teisho on beginners mind:
Language is a wonderful thing. You know, we can say "hello", we can introduce ourselves and say "What a beautiful day." But, of course, we are not our names and none of the things that we experience are the names that we have for them.
It is wonderful to be able to talk because then we can communicate with each other. However, sometimes we can be so clever with our words that we become confused by our own double-talk. What I mean by double-talk is that we have words that refer mainly only to other words. We have symbols that refer to other symbols. Symbols can be very useful because they can instruct us in something, they can tell us how to do something, in which case the symbol refers to something that we actually experience, but when symbols only lead to other symbols, then it seems to become a closed system. Now, we are so good at talking (and so good at double-talk) that most of you spent a lot of time, this morning, thinking about what was going to happen when you got here. You were rehearsing it in your head despite the fact that you really had no idea what was going to happen. In the same kind of way, whenever we meet anyone we usually rehearse what we are going to say beforehand and when we get there, nothing ever happens the way we thought it was going to happen.
Sometimes we might notice that and feel upset; sometimes we might not notice that because we are already rehearsing the next thing in our head. So we are continually talking to ourselves about what we are doing. We have a kind of monologue or a story-line in which we talk to ourselves about what we have been doing, what we are going to be doing and, from time to time, we even comment on what we are doing right now.
We become so good at language, at words, at names, that we really do begin to confuse our experiences with our names for our experience.
So that is one of things that we want to take a look at this afternoon. We want to find out what happens if we begin to see that our thoughts are not what our experiences really are and that, in fact, the thoughts are just a very small part of our experience. It is not a matter of attempting to get rid of our ability to name things or to think. But because we have invested so much energy into our thoughts, we often do not have any room for what our experience actually is. Everything gets filled up by the separations that we create between things.
We name a thing and we think that because we have named it, we know what it is. We name something and as soon as we name something, we start to think that it is a noun. For example, we say "mind" and many of us think that is a noun, that mind is a kind of a thing, that it is one thing, a kind of a substance, it is always the same.
But what is it that we are calling "mind"? We are calling thoughts and feelings, sights and sounds, experiences which are always coming and going, always shifting and changing radically, "mind". And we act as if that is always one thing. We act towards the mind, then, and towards our experience, as if it should always be one way and when it is not, we become frustrated. And because it never really is one way, we are almost always frustrated. And because we become frustrated, we wind up telling ourselves more and more stories about how things should be.
So, what we want to do, then, is just begin to work with our experience as it really is, because none of our names, none of our words for our experience is what our experience really is.
Hi MatSalted,
What does this have to do with our own personal experience of dukkha?
That is, I guess, a big part of this thought experiment's objective, to see how these low level dharmic truths connect with our individual experiences of dukka and sukka:)
We are in agreement that it's not just you, you, you. It's how other's respond to the way you appear on this forum. All of us share responsibility for the unhappiness created by our behavior. Isn't it time to engage in the great experiment you asked for in your opening post on this thread?
I imagine that with the support of the NewBuddhist community/Sangha we can do this and accomplish great benefit, wellbeing, and happiness for all. What a Dream!!
Right now sky, in this thought experiment, I am below feelings, below sentience and emotion and experience and suffering and joy:) Down at the base of reality.
I see you have no intention of going there. Maybe our virgin buddhist paths will cross later on:)
What is emptiness from a virgin Buddhist perspective? Let's look at what we're implying by the term 'virgin' Buddhist perpective? It's actually a profound question if we apply beginner's mind to it.
Does it happen that some practitioners experience emptiness without having teachings on it? Some do. Can they put their experience into words? Not sure. Perhaps if they are very skilled and abide in the moment to moment experience of emptiness.
That is, I guess, a big part of this thought experiment's objective, to see how these low level dharmic truths connect with our individual experiences of dukka and sukka
Could you tell me, then, what it has to do with your individual experience of dukkha? ("I agree that they are different but think that permanence is to do with sequence rather than time per se. eg if there was a sequence of 10101 that repeated a million times then we would say it was impermanent. Sequence seems more primitive than time?")
I just finished posting on the suicide thread. Suicide is what led me to the dharma. I lost my father in 1981 and I was in such anguish that the teachings on the Four Noble Truths went straight to my heart.
My first Buddhist retreat was at Breitenbush a year later. Two members of the Breitenbush staff died during that first retreat, and we retreatants were left on our own for a few days to sit and watch our breath because "you never know when your last one with be".
I was immersed in direct reflection on impermanence. My heart opened. I had been in shock over my dad's passing and I cried like a baby in front of 100 strangers. Yet, I felt completely held in loving regard while not speaking or even looking at another person.
Impermanence is no abstract topic in such an environment. Every day I take refuge in awakened mind, the path that leads to awakening and the companions on the path including those noble, more experienced guides.
To me virgin buddhism means to continually cultivate beginners mind, no matter how long I've been practicing meditation. Every day I sit on my cushion or go about my day is a new beginning.
May all beings benefit.
On the subject of IMPERMANENCE
Death becomes the KEY that unlocks the door where the beauty and meaning of every living moment can be found.
The TRUTH - death's fundamental principle - is that our future is disappearing INSTANTANEOUSLY as soon as it appears. The ONLY way to be truly ALIVE is to embrace our own fatal adventure.Yes all of us are in a fatal adventure! No matter how exciting or boring or luxurious or simple this adventure is, there is only one conclusion.This is how death teaches us to live; to do our very best, to be as kind, loving and compassionate as possible, to gain as much wisdom and insight in every moment; for it is ONLY THE PRESENT MOMENT that we truly have.
When we can see this, then all our petty quarrels and likes or dislikes seem insignificant.
I am of nature to decay, I have not gone beyond decay.
I am of the nature to be diseased, I have not gone beyond disease.
I am of the nature to die, I have not done beyond death.
All that is mine, dear and delightful, will change and vanish.
I am the owner of my kamma, heir to my kamma, born of my kamma, related to
my kamma, abide supported by my kamma. Whatever kamma I shall do,
whether good or evil, of that I shall be the heir.
Thus we should frequently recollect.
You've come in here with this idea that you are going to enlighten us to your way of thinking. That you're going to teach us true Buddhism. When I jumped ahead of you on the other thread about where I thought your points were going, you said I was wrong. Well, you turned out to be saying exactly what I thought you were. And I'm not even sure you recognize this fact.
Anyway, maybe you should keep a little more open mind to what others here have to teach and not say everyone is being negative when they don't want to stay inside your cordoned off discussion.
Right now sky, in this thought experiment, I am below feelings, below sentience and emotion and experience and suffering and joy:) Down at the base of reality.
I see you have no intention of going there. Maybe our virgin buddhist paths will cross later on:)
No problem. I don't see my sentience as being below the base of reality emotion, joy, suffering. We are all sentient beings who don't realize we're buddhas.
Something is causing you to shut down. If you pay attention to it you may find some insight.
Right now sky, in this thought experiment, I am below feelings, below sentience and emotion and experience and suffering and joy:) Down at the base of reality.
I see you have no intention of going there. Maybe our virgin buddhist paths will cross later on:)
I don't think you understand the condescension implied by statements such as these.
Please don't give-up. We all need you right here and now. Our paths have crossed here (karma) these are the circumstances we have to dance with. Please remember rectitude, strength, and the vow - you know the one I mean.
Whether Mat, or anyone else, can hang in with this experiment is up to them. It's a good thing and it's begun.
No problem. I don't see my sentience as being below the base of reality emotion, joy, suffering. We are all sentient beings who don't realize we're buddhas.
Something is causing you to shut down. If you pay attention to it you may find some insight.
I really like the term 'virgin buddhist'. It really makes me reflect on beginner's mind.
Mat--it is a thought experiment and a heart experiment to stay in a place of uncontrived openness.
This is a wonderful topic.
hi Sky
before openness I would like to start with nothingness:) If you don't want to thats fine, but its a bit rude within this thread I started, with this specific purpose for those specifically interested:)
Imagine just a single point? What statements are true of that point?
I hope you have some vision to see how these simple considerations and reflections may lead deeply into the human condition:)
Do you believe there was Dharma before the buddha?
Mat has the right to discuss what he likes in any way he likes. It is clear to me that he had expectations of how this discussion would be formulated and it didn't go the way he planned. However I am still unclear on what or I should say how he wanted people to discuss. This is why I asked him to clarify the parameters of the discussion, to try and avoid exactly what has happened.
Don't get me wrong, your points, and those of sky, and others are important, but this is Mats thread and we should respect that. I also think what you are pointing to would be invaluable to all of us here and I propose we start another thread with this in mind and let Mat and anyone else get back to whatever Mat wanted to discuss on this thread.
But I ask again, Mat please, define exactly what you want to discuss, how you want to discuss it, what can be included and what should be excluded.
before openness I would like to start with nothingness:) If you don't want to thats fine, but its a bit rude within this thread I started, with this specific purpose for those specifically interested:)
Imagine just a single point? What statements are true of that point?
I hope you have some vision to see how these simple considerations and reflections may lead deeply into the human condition:)
Do you believe there was Dharma before the buddha?
Mat
What is beyond the four extremes? Existence, non-existence, both existence and non-existence and neither existence nor non-existence.
That answer can only be experienced in the here and now.
But I ask again, Mat please, define exactly what you want to discuss, how you want to discuss it, what can be included and what should be excluded.
OK, how about something like this (It needs improving) as a starting point for this thought experiment.
Lets imagine we have never heard of dharma. Imagine we have never heard of anything. We don't know about causation. Or time or anything.
Imagine we just appear from nowhere, with no preconceptions, assumptions, doctrines anything. Just a language and an intelligence that we need to define and discuss ourselves.
We dont assume Anything. We help each other be our own lights.
What is beyond the four extremes? Existence, non-existence, both existence and non-existence and neither existence nor non-existence.
Hi Sky
True as that may be that is doctrine, which is not in this thought experiment:) We may find however that we can see where that doctrine comes from if we continue from first principles:)
I had a friend named David. We shared a 6'x9' cell for about ten years at Oregon State Penitentiary. David was serving an aggravated murder life sentence for a contract killing. Nobody in Oregon had ever been paroled from such a sentence. David and I met in a cognitive programs facilitator training program at the prison, where we trained and worked. At the time David had basically given-up on life, depressed, suicidal, etc, etc etc. He had come to the training at the urging of his friends who were trying to save his life. He was mostly disinterested and even a little hostile toward the program.
David and I were introduced and I was asked to work with David; introducing him to meditation, etc. and Tai Chi. Over time David and I became very close friends (we used to joke that we might qualify as domestic partners in a no-sexual way) we decided to live and train in the Buddhadharma and Taoist energy work together in a committed way.
Over time David came to KNOW that he was not separate from others on a very profound and pervasive level. He began to express that in the way he appeared in the world, in his words, and actions, and the very energetic Taste of his presence.
To shorten this story. David was the first person paroled from any prison in Oregon having been sentenced to life on an aggravated murder conviction. David and the Parole Board shared one key point regarding this miracle.
David KNEW that he was not separate. David KNEW emptiness. It was this point that he conveyed to the board, not in words, although he did state that he could no longer do harm to others because he KNEW he was not separate from them and that their wellbeing was his own, he expressed this on a much more basic level and this impressed the board.
David died last year having accomplished that which had never been done before. He died a free man in all the ways one could imagine. He died no longer in prison or on parole. He died embraced by those who truly loved him as part of a supportive family. He traveled, rode a motorcycle through Mexico, hung his toes in rivers, walked in the surf on the coast. He arose from the dead and died truly alive.
I loved him (had to stop writing cuz' I'm crying too hard) He was my BROTHER. When he died, others could not understand why I didn't express great sadness at the loss. I knew David, I knew his heart and his KNOWING emptiness. For me he lives and always will in the depths of this heart and spirit.
That I had a chance to share time with him outside the prison walls was a blessing and a miracle for us both. I imagine it as the result of KNOWING emptiness - that we are profoundly and pervasively connect to all things, along with how to make this KNOWING part of our very being and prove it in the fabric of our lives.
Comments
Anyway, back to the thought experiment.
Therefore, I offer you two things. First I support Sky's post that perhaps it best to begin with the basis of being one who trains to be awakened. Having confidence in the concepts of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.
Second, I ask you to please share with me a story of how you directly met and realized, even if ever so briefly or vaguely stuff like 'impermanence'
In this regard, Sitting here I notice my breath. I breathe in I have a physical sensation of cold as the air moves across the outside edge of my left nostril. As that in-breath ends the sensation of cold at the left outside edge of my left nostril fades away. I imagine this as impermanence.
Get It?
Wishing All Well
MOO! I mean Mu!
lol
I just finished posting on the suicide thread. Suicide is what led me to the dharma. I lost my father in 1981 and I was in such anguish that the teachings on the Four Noble Truths went straight to my heart.
My first Buddhist retreat was at Breitenbush a year later. Two members of the Breitenbush staff died during that first retreat, and we retreatants were left on our own for a few days to sit and watch our breath because "you never know when your last one with be".
I was immersed in direct reflection on impermanence. My heart opened. I had been in shock over my dad's passing and I cried like a baby in front of 100 strangers. Yet, I felt completely held in loving regard while not speaking or even looking at another person.
Impermanence is no abstract topic in such an environment. Every day I take refuge in awakened mind, the path that leads to awakening and the companions on the path including those noble, more experienced guides.
To me virgin buddhism means to continually cultivate beginners mind, no matter how long I've been practicing meditation. Every day I sit on my cushion or go about my day is a new beginning.
May all beings benefit.
Will you please just take whatever's being presented and make it the object of exploration based on your own living relationship with it?
Share your story?
This will be very challenging for those who live in their heads and can only relate to objects from that place.
That's exactly the kind of stuff I'm wishing to read and share with you all.
We can do this!!!
Hi
I agree that they are different but think that permanence is to do with sequence rather than time per se. eg if there was a sequence of 10101 that repeated a million times then we would say it was impermanent. Sequence seems more primitive than time?
Do you think this means that if there is sequence in any sense there is impermanence? Because the sequence is itself change?
mat
I agree, but its very off topic for this thread and needs a thread of its own:)
Mat
That's an interesting question.
Is she smaller than you?:)
Wow Sky, that thought gave me shivers. Impermanece can be used as a tool to help us out of bad habits. I never thought of it like that before, even though I have been trying to accomplish that in my practice.
It could be interesting and rewarding to our personal practices
Mat
PS I am no longer arguing here.
PPS Sorry for arguing.'
What happened?
If it is repeated, then that implies each sequence is a new sequence. That means that each individual sequence is impermanent. If it is just the same ol sequence sitting there, then you could attribute permanence.
Anyway, I quite liked Richard's and Sky River's posts. You've managed to create yet another philosophy/logic thread.
hi Sky
Yes, and can we please start from first principles, if that doesn't interest you then cant you just wait until we get to the more important real stuff?
Please dont be willfully negative about this:(
Mat
I do understand that habits are very difficult to deal with; especially those we use all day everyday as our primary coping skills.
Has the way you've appeared here and had others respond to you been a happy experience?
I imagined your initial post as an invitation to try an experiment to take another approach, starting anew, in our way of communicating. :scratch:
Sooo, while I realize you're trying to pinpoint the meaning of terms, do we need to do so in this way? It's pretty much cutting everyone who was excited about this topic out of the topic.
I haven't to my knowledge posted one wilfully negative thought in this thread.
Isn't the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha one of the first principles?
I don't understand what you're doing. Can you see that some of us are interested in this topic out of our living practice?
You are a little too demanding in the way you want people to behave in discussions with you. And implying that Sky River is being willfully negative after you just dismissed her post just seems hypocritical. You need to stop projecting negativity.
Sky don't quit!
We have to do this for the benefit of all!!
I'm sure you understand what's going on here.
Mat, you're apparently very locked into a certain state of mind. I will not abandon you and I will not quit.
I vow to continue to model what I imagine as correct behavior in regard to your original request no matter how much you express resistance.
Posting in a Buddhist forum is about give and take. What are you willing to give and take on this thread?
Tell me some stories about your meditation practice that deals with the basics. Inject that blazing intellect of yours with some metaphorical earth touching mudra.
I thought for a moment...
Meh
I wish you well:)
If your feelings are hurt start from there.
sky
What does this have to do with our own personal experience of dukkha?
What I experience firsthand has all proven to be impermanent. When I see impermanence, and my clinging to that which is impermanent, I see the hold samsara has over me. It gives me reason to practice.
If I cannot observe something, then I'll leave it at this: it's not pertinent to my Buddhist practice and all anyone can do is theorize and speculate endlessly about it.
http://www.wwzc.org/teisho/beginners.htm
That is, I guess, a big part of this thought experiment's objective, to see how these low level dharmic truths connect with our individual experiences of dukka and sukka:)
We are in agreement that it's not just you, you, you. It's how other's respond to the way you appear on this forum. All of us share responsibility for the unhappiness created by our behavior. Isn't it time to engage in the great experiment you asked for in your opening post on this thread?
I imagine that with the support of the NewBuddhist community/Sangha we can do this and accomplish great benefit, wellbeing, and happiness for all. What a Dream!!
We can do this!!!
Right now sky, in this thought experiment, I am below feelings, below sentience and emotion and experience and suffering and joy:) Down at the base of reality.
I see you have no intention of going there. Maybe our virgin buddhist paths will cross later on:)
Does it happen that some practitioners experience emptiness without having teachings on it? Some do. Can they put their experience into words? Not sure. Perhaps if they are very skilled and abide in the moment to moment experience of emptiness.
Could you tell me, then, what it has to do with your individual experience of dukkha? ("I agree that they are different but think that permanence is to do with sequence rather than time per se. eg if there was a sequence of 10101 that repeated a million times then we would say it was impermanent. Sequence seems more primitive than time?")
On the subject of IMPERMANENCE
Death becomes the KEY that unlocks the door where the beauty and meaning of every living moment can be found.
The TRUTH - death's fundamental principle - is that our future is disappearing INSTANTANEOUSLY as soon as it appears. The ONLY way to be truly ALIVE is to embrace our own fatal adventure.Yes all of us are in a fatal adventure! No matter how exciting or boring or luxurious or simple this adventure is, there is only one conclusion.This is how death teaches us to live; to do our very best, to be as kind, loving and compassionate as possible, to gain as much wisdom and insight in every moment; for it is ONLY THE PRESENT MOMENT that we truly have.
When we can see this, then all our petty quarrels and likes or dislikes seem insignificant.
You've come in here with this idea that you are going to enlighten us to your way of thinking. That you're going to teach us true Buddhism. When I jumped ahead of you on the other thread about where I thought your points were going, you said I was wrong. Well, you turned out to be saying exactly what I thought you were. And I'm not even sure you recognize this fact.
Anyway, maybe you should keep a little more open mind to what others here have to teach and not say everyone is being negative when they don't want to stay inside your cordoned off discussion.
Something is causing you to shut down. If you pay attention to it you may find some insight.
Please share a story of how this appears in your day to day life?
You may start with 'When I ... then this (thought, feeling, etc) arose ...
Weave us a story, make it vivid, breathe life into emptiness!!!
Show us your heart!
Come-on man you can do this!!!
I wish to make the same request of you.
Will you please share a story of how this appears in your day to day life?
You may start with 'When I ... then this (thought, feeling, etc) arose ...
Weave us a story, make it vivid, breathe life into your object!!!
Show us your heart!
You can do this!!!
I don't think you understand the condescension implied by statements such as these.
Please don't give-up. We all need you right here and now. Our paths have crossed here (karma) these are the circumstances we have to dance with. Please remember rectitude, strength, and the vow - you know the one I mean.
Whether Mat, or anyone else, can hang in with this experiment is up to them. It's a good thing and it's begun.
We can work it out.
Hi Sky,
Do you think there was dharma before the Buddha?
mat
Mat--it is a thought experiment and a heart experiment to stay in a place of uncontrived openness.
This is a wonderful topic.
hi Sky
before openness I would like to start with nothingness:) If you don't want to thats fine, but its a bit rude within this thread I started, with this specific purpose for those specifically interested:)
Imagine just a single point? What statements are true of that point?
I hope you have some vision to see how these simple considerations and reflections may lead deeply into the human condition:)
Do you believe there was Dharma before the buddha?
Mat
Mat has the right to discuss what he likes in any way he likes. It is clear to me that he had expectations of how this discussion would be formulated and it didn't go the way he planned. However I am still unclear on what or I should say how he wanted people to discuss. This is why I asked him to clarify the parameters of the discussion, to try and avoid exactly what has happened.
Don't get me wrong, your points, and those of sky, and others are important, but this is Mats thread and we should respect that. I also think what you are pointing to would be invaluable to all of us here and I propose we start another thread with this in mind and let Mat and anyone else get back to whatever Mat wanted to discuss on this thread.
But I ask again, Mat please, define exactly what you want to discuss, how you want to discuss it, what can be included and what should be excluded.
Nios.
As a child, long before hearing about the Buddha, I had moments of presence and pure being. Moments of recognizing truth.
If you're asking if truth is, my answer is yes. If you're asking if truth exists before a historical Buddha my answer is yes.
The term 'buddha' not only refers to the historical Buddha but to a state of realization that can be experienced in the here and now.
It feels like a question that can be circular if we don't find a way to ground it in experience.
Can you answer the question yourself from experience?
That answer can only be experienced in the here and now.
Thank you Nios.
OK, how about something like this (It needs improving) as a starting point for this thought experiment.
Lets imagine we have never heard of dharma. Imagine we have never heard of anything. We don't know about causation. Or time or anything.
Imagine we just appear from nowhere, with no preconceptions, assumptions, doctrines anything. Just a language and an intelligence that we need to define and discuss ourselves.
We dont assume Anything. We help each other be our own lights.
How does that sound?
Mat
Hi Sky
True as that may be that is doctrine, which is not in this thought experiment:) We may find however that we can see where that doctrine comes from if we continue from first principles:)
Who knows?
mat
David and I were introduced and I was asked to work with David; introducing him to meditation, etc. and Tai Chi. Over time David and I became very close friends (we used to joke that we might qualify as domestic partners in a no-sexual way) we decided to live and train in the Buddhadharma and Taoist energy work together in a committed way.
Over time David came to KNOW that he was not separate from others on a very profound and pervasive level. He began to express that in the way he appeared in the world, in his words, and actions, and the very energetic Taste of his presence.
To shorten this story. David was the first person paroled from any prison in Oregon having been sentenced to life on an aggravated murder conviction. David and the Parole Board shared one key point regarding this miracle.
David KNEW that he was not separate. David KNEW emptiness. It was this point that he conveyed to the board, not in words, although he did state that he could no longer do harm to others because he KNEW he was not separate from them and that their wellbeing was his own, he expressed this on a much more basic level and this impressed the board.
David died last year having accomplished that which had never been done before. He died a free man in all the ways one could imagine. He died no longer in prison or on parole. He died embraced by those who truly loved him as part of a supportive family. He traveled, rode a motorcycle through Mexico, hung his toes in rivers, walked in the surf on the coast. He arose from the dead and died truly alive.
I loved him (had to stop writing cuz' I'm crying too hard) He was my BROTHER. When he died, others could not understand why I didn't express great sadness at the loss. I knew David, I knew his heart and his KNOWING emptiness. For me he lives and always will in the depths of this heart and spirit.
That I had a chance to share time with him outside the prison walls was a blessing and a miracle for us both. I imagine it as the result of KNOWING emptiness - that we are profoundly and pervasively connect to all things, along with how to make this KNOWING part of our very being and prove it in the fabric of our lives.
Dear Sky, Thank You For Asking.