Is vegetarianism healthy? Does it matter if it's healthy?

I've been one form or another of vegetarian since early 2007. I started off, initially, as a vegan for ethical purposes. Then, health became a major factor. I was a pescetarian (vegan except for fish) for a short while and stopped eating fish because I couldn't live with the idea of eating "something with a face" to speak. I slipped in to vegetarianism (mostly dairy) when outside the house, and am currently 95% vegan.

Lately I've been experiencing some health problems (chronic fatigue, sounds like adrenal fatigue) and have been trying to pinpoint the source. I believe it may be the cumulative effects of stress, but am wondering if my diet has something to do with it. My doctor is definitely biased against my lifestyle, and I would love to find a doctor who would not automatically blame every health complaint on the lack of meat/dairy/eggs in my diet, though I doubt that's possible.

It has influenced my thinking, as you can see, some of the arguments that people have against vegetarianism. I don't want to point the finger at something I feel very strongly about. I want to be healthy. I want to feel good. If eating eggs/meat/dairy will help me to feel better physically, should I do it, even if my conscience dictates otherwise? I simply can't eat meat without feeling horrible. Is this merely an attachment I need to release?

All input appreciated.

I've been one form or another of vegetarian since early 2007. I started off, initially, as a vegan for ethical purposes. Then, health became a major factor. I was a pescetarian (vegan except for fish) for a short while and stopped eating fish because I couldn't live with the idea of eating "something with a face" to speak. I slipped in to vegetarianism (mostly dairy) when outside the house, and am currently 95% vegan.

Lately I've been experiencing some health problems (chronic fatigue, sounds like adrenal fatigue) and have been trying to pinpoint the source. I believe it may be the cumulative effects of stress, but am wondering if my diet has something to do with it. My doctor is definitely biased against my lifestyle, and I would love to find a doctor who would not automatically blame every health complaint on the lack of meat/dairy/eggs in my diet, though I doubt that's possible.

It has influenced my thinking, as you can see, some of the arguments that people have against vegetarianism. I don't want to point the finger at something I feel very strongly about. I want to be healthy. I want to feel good. If eating eggs/meat/dairy will help me to feel better physically, should I do it, even if my conscience dictates otherwise? I simply can't eat meat without feeling horrible. Is this merely an attachment I need to release?

All input appreciated.

All I can say from my experience is that my overall health and energy levels improved after returning to meat eating. Even my meditation improved. But that can be partly because of past health problems, and sticking to veg diet may simply be not for me.

I feel that I'm eating "real" food rather than some substitutes. Also I feel much freer, rather than sticking to some rules and obsessing about food, I can enjoy cooking and eating what is offered by friends without being fussy.

I've known a couple of vegetarians, one of whom has been a veg most of her life and she's got almost disabling chronic fatigue. Not sure if it's to do with veg diet itself, but if I was her I would at least try and see if eating meat would help. Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to Chinese medicine, the foods we eat have energetic properties besides a purely chemical list of ingredients that our body needs. From my experience I'd say that is true.

Human beings evolved as meat eaters. That is not to say I condone the abuse of animals, but I would say the place of meat in our diet is more natural than some veg evangelists would like you to believe.

Many nutritional organisations now recommend a vegetable-based (or at least, vegetable-heavy) diet as the healthiest option, and also recommend reducing red meat intake.

There is absolutely no medical reason to eat meat (despite what some omnivores will say), but yes, you do need protein from somewhere, so if it is not from meat, dairy, or eggs, then you better learn some recipes involving other protein-rich foods, such as beans, nuts, quinoa etc. There is so much good information online and in books these days that being a vegetarian/vegan is easier than ever.

Here's one great page: The Vegetarian Resource Group

As a bonus, you'll also be not killing innocent sentient beings, which is nice.

:)

Namaste

Daozen said:

There is absolutely no medical reason to eat meat (despite what some omnivores will say)

As a bonus, you'll also be not killing innocent sentient beings, which is nice.

From Western-medicine point of view, perhaps. But I believe there is an energetic quality to meat & fish that is very hard if not impossible to reproduce in vegetarian diet.

As to killing, you'll be involved in it indirectly in some way as long as you live on this Earth. This has been debated many times here. Also, I'm not sure if "innocence" is a term that makes sense, if you accept karma and rebirth (I do).

As always, personal choice.

By the way, I'm not feeling brilliant about eating meat and I try to avoid it as much as I can. I'm currently experimenting with how long I can go without meat & fish. I'd love to be able to sustain myself on vegetarian diet.

sattvapaul said:

From Western-medicine point of view, perhaps. But I believe there is an energetic quality to meat & fish that is very hard if not impossible to reproduce in vegetarian diet.

True, I am talking about nutritional science, not 'energetic quality'.

sattvapaul said:

As to killing, you'll be involved in it indirectly in some way as long as you live on this Earth ... As always, personal choice.

Perhaps, but you'll be much MORE involved if your personal choose to eat meat.

Namaste

Daozen said:

True, I am talking about nutritional science, not 'energetic quality'.

You missed some important qualities of science.

Vegan diets often lead to specific deficiencies, namely protein and vitamin B12. Proteins found in plant sources are often lacking in specific amino acids, which reduces their effect because there has to be a balanced intake. Beans and nuts are good sources of many of the aminos, but lack the sulfer aminos. Vegans typically have unbalanced intakes, which reduces the ability of the body to use the aminos in their proteins. You don't have to turn to meat though, some whole grains are rich in the other aminos. Perhaps consider doing a little research on veganism and amino acid intake, to make sure you're getting enough diversity for a balanced diet. (If you have kids, consider giving them milk and eggs because the balance of aminos are especially good for them, and in digestible forms. Organic free range options are usually available to respect the life of the animals.)

The only source for B12 is non plant life, however. Strict vegans often develop a form of anemia which leads to chronic fatigue and other symptoms. If your intent is to remain vegan, you have to supplement your diet with B12. Their are "vegan" sources of B12 that are made from a bacteria, but that might require a little relaxing of your standards depending on how pure your ideologies are. Condiser reading up on "B12 deficiencies", and comparing your symptoms.

Good luck! There is a path of health and meatlessness, but it requires planning and a little nutritional awareness.

With warmth,

Matt

I'm vegetarian but I eat dairy (a source of vitamin B12). Protein is not a problem for me - I eat tofu, quorn, peas and beans which are all rich in protein, plus dairy and eggs, of course. However, I have suffered from iron deficiency anaemia, partly because my diet is low in iron.

Go to a doctor and get your fatigue problems checked out. A quick blood test will determine if you are anaemic. Thyroid problems are nothing to do with diet, but also pretty common. There are many explanations from fatigue but it is worth checking out the more common things.

Vegetarian eating is perfectly healthy but I agree with Matt that you need to be educated about healthy eating. You can be vegetarian and eat a mixture of fruit, vegetables, grains, dairy and eggs (which is healthy). Or you can be vegetarian and live on Margerita pizza and garlic bread (unhealthy). So you need to know what you are doing and eat healthily.

For fatigue problems I would suggest trying a good quality Panax Ginseng extract. Works wonders for me, not only as energy booster but a natural antidepressant.

aMatt said:

Daozen said:

True, I am talking about nutritional science, not 'energetic quality'.

You missed some important qualities of science.

Vegan diets often lead to specific deficiencies, namely protein and vitamin B12. Proteins found in plant sources are often lacking in specific amino acids, which reduces their effect because there has to be a balanced intake. Beans and nuts are good sources of many of the aminos, but lack the sulfer aminos. Vegans typically have unbalanced intakes, which reduces the ability of the body to use the aminos in their proteins. You don't have to turn to meat though, some whole grains are rich in the other aminos. Perhaps consider doing a little research on veganism and amino acid intake, to make sure you're getting enough diversity for a balanced diet. (If you have kids, consider giving them milk and eggs because the balance of aminos are especially good for them, and in digestible forms. Organic free range options are usually available to respect the life of the animals.)

The only source for B12 is non plant life, however. Strict vegans often develop a form of anemia which leads to chronic fatigue and other symptoms. If your intent is to remain vegan, you have to supplement your diet with B12. Their are "vegan" sources of B12 that are made from a bacteria, but that might require a little relaxing of your standards depending on how pure your ideologies are. Condiser reading up on "B12 deficiencies", and comparing your symptoms.

Good luck! There is a path of health and meatlessness, but it requires planning and a little nutritional awareness.

With warmth,

Matt

I take three different forms of B-12 and blood tests stated my levels were normal. It could be folate. I could be iron-deficient as I have fairly heavy periods. I'm pretty well-versed in the requirements of a vegan diet, but am wondering if there's something that nutritional science hasn't caught on to quite yet. I think I eat fairly well-balanced most of the time, though who couldn't stand to get an extra serving of veggies?

I recently quit a very high-stress job. Worked there for 1.5 years and felt miserable for most of the work day, as well as at home. This is one of the reasons I think the cumulative effects of stress may have something to do with it. The last five years have been relatively stressful, as well. My symptoms sound very similar to adrenal fatigue, but it doesn't sound like the condition is medically recognized. The only things I can think of to do, if it is in fact adrenal fatigue, are to limit stress, get lots of rest, exercise moderately, meditate often, and optimize nutrition. I'll try to get everything else ruled out first, though.

Thank you.

aMatt said:

Daozen said:

True, I am talking about nutritional science, not 'energetic quality'.

You missed some important qualities of science.

Vegan diets often lead to specific deficiencies, namely protein and vitamin B12. Proteins found in plant sources are often lacking in specific amino acids, which reduces their effect because there has to be a balanced intake. Beans and nuts are good sources of many of the aminos, but lack the sulfer aminos. Vegans typically have unbalanced intakes, which reduces the ability of the body to use the aminos in their proteins. You don't have to turn to meat though, some whole grains are rich in the other aminos. Perhaps consider doing a little research on veganism and amino acid intake, to make sure you're getting enough diversity for a balanced diet. (If you have kids, consider giving them milk and eggs because the balance of aminos are especially good for them, and in digestible forms. Organic free range options are usually available to respect the life of the animals.)

The only source for B12 is non plant life, however. Strict vegans often develop a form of anemia which leads to chronic fatigue and other symptoms. If your intent is to remain vegan, you have to supplement your diet with B12. Their are "vegan" sources of B12 that are made from a bacteria, but that might require a little relaxing of your standards depending on how pure your ideologies are. Condiser reading up on "B12 deficiencies", and comparing your symptoms.

Good luck! There is a path of health and meatlessness, but it requires planning and a little nutritional awareness.

With warmth,

Matt

I disagree that vegan diet often leads to deficiencies. :) If you said sometimes, then that would be fine.:) The need to eat "complete protein" food and "protein combining" has been discredited a while ago. You could eat nothing but potatoes all day for 2 days and you would get all the amino acids you need in those 2 days. The idea that one need to carefully combine proteins is a common misunderstanding regarding vegan and vegetarian diets. One simply need to eat a variety of food and it's highly unlikely, quite difficult actually, that a person will have problems with protein. Adults can achieve adequate protein with any one of the legume, cereal, nut, seed, or fruit food groups, even though each of these groups is low (compared to animal protein) in certain essential amino acids. The focus on vegans and vegetarians needing to be careful about protein is completely overblown as a result of misunderstanding about protein nutrition.

This paper explains the common myths regarding protein quite well.

Plant proteins in relation to human protein and amino acid nutrition
VR Young and PL Pellett
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 59, 1203S-1212S
http://www.ajcn.org/content/59/5/1203S.short

This also explains it well, if you can get a actual copy of the journal article.

Vegetable Proteins can Stand Alone
DENNIS GORDON, MEd, RD
Journal of the American Dietetic Association
Volume 96, Issue 3 , Pages 230-231, March 1996
http://www.adajournal.org/article/S0002-8223(96)00069-7/fulltext

As far as B12, it is not found in fruits, vegetables, grains etc. Vegan sources of B12 are B12 fortified foods and vitamin supplements. ALL B12 comes from bacteria, even animal food sources. Many foods these day are B12 fortified. Many breakfast cereals are B12 fortified as well as Soy milk, Rice milk and "fake meat" products and others. Many vegans take B12 in vitamin form just to be sure. One needs to make sure that they are consuming B12 fortified products on a regular basis or taking supplement on a regular basis. It is quite easy to get the proper amount of B12 if you get your food from a normal supermarket. One need not compromise their ideals just to get proper nutrition. I've been doing it for 20 years quite easily. :)

A doctor who first blames the lack of meat/eggs/dairy for health problems is a doctor who has no knowledge of nutrition.

>I simply can't eat meat without feeling horrible. Is this merely an attachment I need to release?

No it isn't. :) I would suggest you see an actual nutritionist if you are concerned about your diet, one who understands vegan/vegetarian nutrition. Typical doctors have no training in nutrition at all.

This is a good "go to" article concerning vegan/vegetarian nutrition.

Vegetarian Diets
Journal of the American Dietetic Association
Volume 109, Issue 7, Pages 1266-1282 (July 2009)

http://www.eatright.org/about/content.aspx?id=8357

prettyhowtown said:

My doctor is definitely biased against my lifestyle

All input appreciated.

I think there are factors to consider.

But I think it's important to consider all the facts that are affecting your case. But it will be difficult to be open-minded about the situation if you see your doctor as being "biased" because his view differs from your own. I would guess he is no more biased against veganism, than you are biased in favor of it.

FWIW my doctor (Chinese, raised Buddhist) felt that vegetarianism was to blame for my illness, but my dietitian disagreed. Knowing far more about nutrition, she felt my diet was very good, except for iron, which was actually due to my health condition, and not the other way around.

Turned out I had a genetic disorder which affects much of my body that is responsible for my ill health. So nothing whatsoever to do with my diet. My experience is that doctors can be prejudiced against vegetarianism/veganism because doctors learn virtually nothing about nutrition in their training. And if they come across someone with a 'weird' diet, like me, they instantly put two and two together and make five.

I know it is very fashionable to blame every kind of ill health on diet, but in reality, as long as you eat a varied, healthy diet, it is unlikely your diet is to blame.

A typical doctors views on nutrition are based on ignorance of nutritional science. They receive very little training, if any, in nutritional science. When it comes to nutrition, it's not wise to follow the advice of a typical doctor.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430660/

@seeker242

So you would follow the nutritional advice of people on a web forum?

vinlyn said:

prettyhowtown said:

My doctor is definitely biased against my lifestyle

All input appreciated.

I think there are factors to consider.

But I think it's important to consider all the facts that are affecting your case. But it will be difficult to be open-minded about the situation if you see your doctor as being "biased" because his view differs from your own. I would guess he is no more biased against veganism, than you are biased in favor of it.

Actually, I would not have made my original post if my bias towards vegetarianism was so strong that I was unwilling to consider eating meat. I told my doctor that I was feeling fatigued all the time and the first words out of her mouth were "It's probably your diet" when all I had told her was that I don't eat meat, and infrequently eat dairy and eggs. I wonder if she would have said this if I had told her nothing about my diet? I think her bias against vegetarianism could prevent us from getting to the root of the problem. If it IS my diet, I'm willing to make the necessary changes, even if that means eating meat. I am afraid I will risk my mental/spiritual health if I do eat meat, however, because I feel so strongly against it. (This is why I asked if my vegetarian lifestyle is just an attachment I need to release.)

So we'll see...

prettyhowtown said:

...I told my doctor that I was feeling fatigued all the time and the first words out of her mouth were "It's probably your diet"...

Well, when I told my doctor that I was feeling fatigued all the time, the first words out of her mouth also were, "It's probably your diet", and I'm a meat eater. My doctor said diet (whatever it is) is the most common problem with fatigue, and if that's not it, then you start looking at things like thyroid, etc.

But back to the point I was making, whether one is in favor of a meat diet or a veggie diet, or whatever...that doesn't make them biased. My goodness, can't a person have a viewpoint?

vinlyn said:

@seeker242

So you would follow the nutritional advice of people on a web forum?

Personally, I follow journal articles published in peer reviewed nutritional science journals, like the ones I posted links to before, which is why I posted the links. It's quite obvious that this particular doctor does not read these journals and has no clue as to what he's talking about. :) Sure, a person can have a viewpoint, but if that viewpoint is based on ignorance of the actual science, it is not wise to follow that viewpoint.

vinlyn said:

But back to the point I was making, whether one is in favor of a meat diet or a veggie diet, or whatever...that doesn't make them biased. My goodness, can't a person have a viewpoint?

NO! :P ;)

I just wanted to make the point that I'm open to it all, as much as I'd prefer to stay vegetarian.

@seeker

Following valid journal articles and other sources is good. Good for you!

Doctors often operate on some assumptions...those assumptions are based, to some extent, odds. Now that may sound very unscientific -- and as a person with a degree in the sciences, I admit that it is not very scientific. But on the other hand, many doctors test too much. Odds are, when you go into and complain of fatigue, diet may be the most common cause, so the doctor checks that out first. And, in the case of diet, that may be a lack of protein...or not...but that's pretty common. If that's not it, the doctor may go further and check off things such as thyroid, etc.

@prettyhowtown

Cool. That's the key...being openminded!

@prettyhowtown - it sounds like you're having some second thoughts about being vegetarian. The bottom line is, it's up to you what you eat. Whether it's 'healthy' or not is only one factor involved in the decision, surely.

@vinlyn Lack of protein is almost unheard of in developed countries, even among vegans. Among meat eaters, the usual problem is far too much. Once you are adult, you need very little protein indeed to stay healthy.

vixthenomad said:

@prettyhowtown - it sounds like you're having some second thoughts about being vegetarian. The bottom line is, it's up to you what you eat. Whether it's 'healthy' or not is only one factor involved in the decision, surely.

The only doubt I'm having is about the health of vegetarianism. Ethically, it's the right choice for me. Healthwise, not so sure.

Ada_B said:

@vinlyn Lack of protein is almost unheard of in developed countries, even among vegans. Among meat eaters, the usual problem is far too much. Once you are adult, you need very little protein indeed to stay healthy.

I stand corrected.

Ada_B said:

@vinlyn Lack of protein is almost unheard of in developed countries, even among vegans. Among meat eaters, the usual problem is far too much. Once you are adult, you need very little protein indeed to stay healthy.

just to add on... kwashiorkor is the disease that forms when one does not get enough protein. however, there are a myriad of illnesses that they believe are caused by too much protein including: kidney problems(kidney stones), low calcium which can lead to osteoporosis(calcium is needed for the body to break down protein), heart problems(they think this is a result of the saturated fats usually accompanied with animal proteins), gout(proteins cause an increase in uric acid). just the fact that most people have probably never heard of kwashiorkor, yet everyone probably knows someone with kidney stones, osteoporosis, or heart problems should probably mean something.

i mostly just summed up this article if anyone is interested. the article also contains sources and a formula for figuring out how much protein is the right amount for you.

@prettyhowtown i've yo-yo'd with veggie diets over the years. i'm a terrible cook and not the best at keeping track of my food intake and making sure my diet is varied enough. so, over the years, i've gone back to eating meat only to find that it makes me feel even worse and causes digestive problems for me (no matter how long i stick with it). i hate the idea of contributing to the meat industry, but i do worry about my health as well, so i want to make sure i'm not hurting myself with my diet. i currently only eat meat when it is given to me (think parties) and never choose to purchase/order it. i don't know if this is the best answer though. i still usually regret it when i eat meat as it usually causes digestional discomfort and heart burn. so... i don't know. honestly, i think i walk around life dehydrated 90% of the time and increasing my water intake seems to help me feel better than any changes i make to my diet. if i forget for a day (like yesterday), i wake up feeling lethargic and crappy.

Doctors can't possibly know everything that most people/positions expect them to. If you are interested in your nutrition, I would go to a dietician or a nutritionist. I worked with several at a diabetes camp for a number of years and they are going to be your best source for dietary information.

@zombiegirl You have something there with water. Think about it this way. You are a biochemical machine made up of mostly water and you are dehydrated all the imbalances are more exaggerated than they would be if you were more dilute. Water is also used to flush toxins, etc from your body. I think that water consumption is severely lacking in our focus on health.

Just take some multi vitamins and drink protein shakes.

pain said:

Just take some multi vitamins and drink protein shakes.

I have often heard it said that that is a good way to make very expensive urine. Seriously, you don't need it. Multi-vitamins are pointless if you have a healthy diet, and protein shakes are not only pointless, they're not very healthy. Too much protein can give you kidney stones.

I have conducted a study on the amount of certain water soluble vitamins that get passed in the urine. It is quite significant. In order for your body to absorb all the nutrients of a pill, you would have to cut up the pill into several pieces and take those throughout the day. It is better to just snack on healthy foods all day. There is something to be said for taking a vitamin/mineral in its context rather than extracting it and putting it in pill form. Not only that, but I recently read an article that said preliminary studies have shown that too many of certain vitamins can actually increase your risk for types of cancers.

Basically, if it was healthy for us to eat concentrated nutrients, nature would have provided that. We need things in their context with fiber, other nutrients and chemicals, etc.

I've noticed that people love to point out all the potential “problems” with a vegan/vegetarian diet.

And yet, the mainstream diet in Western countries (high in meat, saturated fats, processed chemicals, additives and sugars) is actually far far more problematic in so many ways (health, ethics, environment).

Namaste

It's definitely a false attachment that needs to be released imo. By avoiding meat you won't be closer to enlightenment. It won't make you more "compassionate." I can give you hitler as an example who was a vegetarian. Let go of these deluded views and let your health be restored.

@Paul

I'd just like to point out 4 factual errors in your last post:

1. Compassion is not false attachment; it is a principle of Buddhism.
2. Avoiding meat is more compassionate than eating it.
3. Hitler was not a vegetarian. (And even if he was, it's a logical fallacy to connect the two.)
4. Nutritional organisations worldwide agree that a vegetarian diet is a healthy option.

Namaste

I didn't read the entire thread, but I'm of the opinion that our health in the now isn't as important as the entire life span of any sentient existence.

The best reference ever, bar none:
Healing With Whole Foods, Asian Traditions and Modern Nutrition, 3rd Edition
by Paul Pitchford

about Paul Pitchford:
http://www.healingwithwholefoods.com/bio.html

book listing with "look inside" feature:
http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Whole-Foods-Traditions-Nutrition/dp/1556434308/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317863697&sr=1-1

Other than exploring the above reference, if you have a primarily soy-based diet, please be aware that soy blocks iodine uptake of the thyroid, which quite commonly causes all manner of vague and chronic fatigue symptoms due to insufficient thyroid function. Please also be aware that 95% of soy in the U.S. is genetically engineered at this point... and that certain problems are lately being discovered with the metabolism of genetically engineered crops.

Another commonly overlooked source of autoimmune and chronic fatigue symptoms is chronic candida overgrowth and inflammation, often encouraged by prolonged use of hormonal birth control or synthetic hormones.

Daozen said:

@Paul

I'd just like to point out 4 factual errors in your last post:

1. Compassion is not false attachment; it is a principle of Buddhism.
2. Avoiding meat is more compassionate than eating it.
3. Hitler was not a vegetarian. (And even if he was, it's a logical fallacy to connect the two.)
4. Nutritional organisations worldwide agree that a vegetarian diet is a healthy option.

Namaste

Daozen,

1. Where did I say compassion is a false attachment? If you're saying compassion and vegetarianism are connected then that would be a false view.

2. Then by your reasoning avoiding eating vegetables would also be compassionate since pesticides are used to kill many sentient beings in order to grow them.

3. According to some of the most respected historians, Hitler was indeed a vegetarian.

4. Peta doesn't count as an organization.

Paul said:

I It won't make you more "compassionate." I can give you hitler as an example who was a vegetarian.

That's like saying if hitler was ever kind (I'm sure he was at least one time in his life) then fuck it, don't be kind.

Hitler could of been kind(to his followers, pets etc.) but it sure as hell wasn't due to his vegetarian diet.

Paul said:

Where did I say compassion is a false attachment?

You said: "It's definitely a false attachment that needs to be released imo". Given that this thread is about vegetarianism, I assumed the "it" in "it's" was vegetarianism. If you meant something else, my mistake (and please let me know what you did mean).

Paul said:

If you're saying compassion and vegetarianism are connected then that would be a false view.

I am genuinely baffled and curious. What do you think compassion is, if not respect for our fellow sentient beings by not killing them for our pleasure?

Paul said:

Then by your reasoning avoiding eating vegetables would also be compassionate since pesticides are used to kill many sentient beings in order to grow them.

My argument is that meat eating is a less compassionate choice that vegetarianism. Obviously, humans must eat something in order to live: vegetables are a more compassionate choice than meat, especially organic ones.

Paul said:

According to some of the most respected historians, Hitler was indeed a vegetarian.

Well, according to equally respected historians, he was not. In any case, it is an utterly irrelevant point. Hitler spoke German - does that make all German-speaking people brutal dictators? Of course not.

Paul said:

Peta doesn't count as an organization.

Lol OK this comment really shows your prejudices. I said nutritional organisations, not animals rights organisations. For example, the American Dietetic Association says that "appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases". Wikipedia also notes: "Evidence suggests that vegetarians have lower rates of coronary heart disease, obesity, hypertension, type 2 diabetes, osteoporosis, and dementia."

Namaste

Paul said:

Hitler could of been kind(to his followers, pets etc.) but it sure as hell wasn't due to his vegetarian diet.

You're not understanding my point. You're saying, if Hitler did it, you shouldn't. Hitler breathed. You gonna stop doing that?

Daozen,

The message I'm trying to convey is that eating vegetarian does not make one more or less compassionate. It is one's actions. Of course killing an animal is not compassionate but buying meat and eating it is neither good or bad. The same goes with a vegetarian diet. There are vegetarians who are evil and meat eaters who are compassionate and vice versa. I wasn't trying to generalize. If being a vegetarian is a noble and compassionate thing to do then don't you think the Buddha himself would be a vegetarian?

In your last bit you quoted "Evidence suggests that vegetarians have lower rates of coronary heart disease, obesity, hypertension, type 2 diabetes, osteoporosis, and dementia."

This is only true if you eat nothing but the junk from McDonald's, KFC etc. What about lean non fried meats such as skinless chicken, turkey, fish? These are the some of the most beneficial foods to human health.

Daozen said:

I've noticed that people love to point out all the potential “problems” with a vegan/vegetarian diet.

And yet, the mainstream diet in Western countries (high in meat, saturated fats, processed chemicals, additives and sugars) is actually far far more problematic in so many ways (health, ethics, environment).

Namaste

yes, i love this. i'm not sure why, but the best i can figure is that some meat eaters tend to see it as vegetarians being judgmental, and therefore take personal offense. some people get seriously irritated by it. it's obnoxious, but you'll never stop some people from thinking this world revolves around themselves and everything you do has some sort of connection to them.
when a car gets right behind me on my ass and then speeds around me, i still have a little ego inside going, "uhh, HELLO, i was going the speed limit!" as if them speeding around me is somehow a judgement... when in reality, i shouldn't take that personally. who cares if i'm not going fast enough for some people. same thing...

Paul said:

It's definitely a false attachment that needs to be released imo. By avoiding meat you won't be closer to enlightenment. It won't make you more "compassionate." I can give you hitler as an example who was a vegetarian. Let go of these deluded views and let your health be restored.

Actually, its a myth that Hitler was vegetarian, and letting go of "deluded views" won't restore your health. In fact, it is an insult to sick and disabled people to say so, including far greater people than you or I.

Not to mention, if you were going to be judgmental (not saying anyone should) wouldn't it be best to do so over the unnecessary taking of life? O.o It's part of american culture to be judgmental of people who take drugs (harming no one but themselves) and who knows how many other things but the second people like PETA come along and judge for killing for pleasure (taste) they are just horrible judgmental people to ignore. Very strange place we live...

As for vegetarianism being a healthy diet, the British Dietetic Association (the body that licences dietitians, which in UK is a protected term for individuals with suitable qualifications) and the British Department of Health both support vegetarian diets as healthy, as well as vegan diets (provided it is supplemented with vitamin B12, which is obtained from yeast and other fungi).

A meat-eating diet can be healthy too, of course.

@Paul Compassion IS my motivation to live a vegetarian lifestyle. Has nothing to do with Buddhism, although I think the two go hand-in-hand quite nicely. The level of compassion that influences my life has increased greatly in the last four years since adopting this lifestyle. I can't say that vegetarianism is the reason, but there is a correlation.

Secondly, it has not yet been proven that my diet is to blame, or that eating meat would restore my health. I have said that if there is some property to animal products that would assist in the restoration of my health, then I'm open to it, but it's not my preference. I don't think it's necessarily an attachment, then, because I've stated that I'm open to the idea if it WILL help. There, I answered my own question. :)

Vegetarianism isn't a cause of compassion, it's a symptom of it.

Gumbercules said:

Vegetarianism isn't a cause of compassion, it's a symptom of it.

That's what I said.

prettyhowtown said:

Gumbercules said:

Vegetarianism isn't a cause of compassion, it's a symptom of it.

That's what I said.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, just trying to supplement what you said. :) Especially for Paul who seems to think it's the other way around.

Oh no the attack of the militant self righteous vegetarians. I've been warned about you guys. By the way just had a big juicy steak with mashed potatoes and gravy. Very delicious to say the least...

Paul said:

Oh no the attack of the militant self righteous vegetarians. I've been warned about you guys. By the way just had a big juicy steak with mashed potatoes and gravy. Very delicious to say the least...

Militant? Couldn't be farther from the truth. As for your preferred meal, your karma not mine. :) I realize you must be having a hard time in your life for it to guide you here with the intention of getting a rise out of people (judging by almost all of your posts) but I know from experience it's not gonna help.

Paul said:

Oh no the attack of the militant self righteous vegetarians. I've been warned about you guys. By the way just had a big juicy steak with mashed potatoes and gravy. Very delicious to say the least...

this is exactly the sort of comment that i don't understand. vegetarians see eating meat as harming sentient beings... comments like these are aimed at making someone feel bad at the loss of a life, while boasting of enjoyment at the ending of a sentient being. not very compassionate.

Paul said:

Oh no the attack of the militant self righteous vegetarians. I've been warned about you guys. By the way just had a big juicy steak with mashed potatoes and gravy. Very delicious to say the least...

I'm not a vegetarian either, but I'm not riled up because other people are vegetarians or vegans. No one is trying to make you eat artichokes here, or feel guilty about eating a chicken leg, dude, so why get so worked up about it?
:-/