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Is vegetarianism healthy? Does it matter if it's healthy?
If they impose it on their children, their children's health will suffer. If you live in a city you can see it happening with junk food. Obese, unhealthy people breeding more of the same. You don't think it will affect the gene pool? Whatever, have fun arguing with folks.
@robot You don't seem to understand how natural selection, or evolution actually work. FWIW H G Wells was a eugenicist, a now discredited philosophy which ended with the Holocaust.
@robot You don't seem to understand how natural selection, or evolution actually work. FWIW H G Wells was a eugenicist, a now discredited philosophy which ended with the Holocaust.
Do I get a Godwin's Law prize now?
No, not quite, Ada. But nevertheless, your point is so valid. That's why I said that Robot was getting into dangerous territory.
Would you settle for runner up of the Godwin's Law Prize?
Our brains developed because of a diet rich in fish and meat. Now, if a tiny fraction of all humans do eat a strictly vegetarian diet then no harm done. If everyone tried it I wouldn't hold out much hope for our "intelligence".
You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You think if people don't eat meat we'll lose what we've already gained? Wow. Eating meat caused a genetic mutation, it's not like it's some substance that gives you super powers only as long as you use it.
And Paul... "Go and eat your veggies and start showing a little compassion instead of threatening me of getting bad karma by eating meat."
Rofl. You enjoy coming to Buddhist sites for the purpose of trolling? You obviously don't know much about it and just enjoy getting a rise out of people... The thing about karma, you specifically have karma for every thing you do, including choosing your meal. I have karma for the exact same reasons. That's why I said your karma, not mine.
It seems like the only person I'm getting a rise out of is you. Judging by your arrogance and lack of maturity, you sir are the one that doesn't know anything about Buddhism. Being vegetarian does NOT make you a better buddhist, it is your reduction and eventual elimination of attachments and cravings. You seem to have strong attachment to vegetarianism and freak out when someone argues that there is nothing wrong with meat eating, therefore I would suggest you learn about Buddhism before coming on to this board and blessing your personal opinions to the world.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
edited October 2011
this is a little OT to the current thread... but @Ada_B ... i love quorn. i love the little story on it as well about how the guy who cultivated it thought that overpopulation would lead to a strained meat supply. whoops! oh, and obviously, it is widely available in the US (at least at Meijer and Kroger stores, I know it is)
If those conditions were to change for any reason for a prolonged period, then as natural selection would continue its work and humans will continue to change, the result could as easily be a smaller brain as a larger one. (see "Time Machine" by H.G. Wells).
Your argument is still lacking here buddy... For one the actual size of the brain has nothing to do with intelligence. And two, our brains have been getting progressively smaller for years the more docile we become, regardless of the majority having a meat eating diet.
Either way, sounds like you've never heard of social evolution which would be more impressive anyway since it would be self enforced rather than an uncontrollable set of circumstances. I like how you "BELIEVE" that we'll just get dumber, when in reality the meat eating brain growing event already took place and is stuck in our dna regardless our diet for the foreseeable future.
And to put the nail in the coffin of your argument, how much meat do you think people are gonna be eating when in next couple hundred years when there is absolutely no room to even raise the animals? Unless you think eating meat for 2 generations is going to give you magic powers, you might as well stop killing for pleasure.
Your argument is still lacking here buddy... For one the actual size of the brain has nothing to do with intelligence. And two, our brains have been getting progressively smaller for years the more docile we become, regardless of the majority having a meat eating diet.
Either way, sounds like you've never heard of social evolution which would be more impressive anyway since it would be self enforced rather than an uncontrollable set of circumstances. I like how you "BELIEVE" that we'll just get dumber, when in reality the meat eating brain growing event already took place and is stuck in our dna regardless our diet for the foreseeable future.
And to put the nail in the coffin of your argument, how much meat do you think people are gonna be eating when in next couple hundred years when there is absolutely no room to even raise the animals? Unless you think eating meat for 2 generations is going to give you magic powers, you might as well stop killing for pleasure.
Thank you. See there you go, I have learned something and you did not have to use an angry tone. The reason I use the word "believe " is for the simple reason that that is what I believe, not a statement of fact, and I am willing to be corrected. I would imagine that people will continue to eat the same percentage of meat in their diet, because we have been doing it for most of our history and as I have said most people will not fair very well on a vegetable diet. I didn't say we would be getting dumber. I said that this intelligence that has brought to this point is dependent on conditions. There is no guarantee that with new conditions, we will remain unchanged for the long haul. Am I wrong? Who is talking about 2 generations. You were the one who claimed that animals will evolve intelligence to match ours given a chance. I was trying to show how I disagree with you. also, I don't kill for pleasure. I do it for a living. With respect and gratitude.
I would imagine that people will continue to eat the same percentage of meat in their diet, because we have been doing it for most of our history and as I have said most people will not fair very well on a vegetable diet.
Actually, that's very much so incorrect. We as a species are already eating a lower percentage of meat purely based on the fact that vegetarianism is basically mainstream these days. Also, justifying future actions based on past ones is never wise. If that were the case and we just did what we always have, we would make literally zero progress. Progress wouldn't be a concept humans were aware of.
There is no guarantee that with new conditions, we will remain unchanged for the long haul. Am I wrong?
You are very correct, but it can be better stated as we ARE guaranteed to change. For example, if humanity were to survive until our sun burnt out in however many billions of years, the species formerly known as humanity would have evolved so much as to most likely be unrecognizable to a modern human.
Who is talking about 2 generations.
I meant to say centuries. I'm saying in literally 2 whole centuries (200 years) it won't be possible to sustain such a population (probably like 15-20 billion+ at least) on meat, because since we'll almost TRIPLE the living space just for humans, where are the animals going to live? Cows alone require a ridiculous amount of land per cow just for grazing. Killing animals for meat will soon be a thing of the past.
You were the one who claimed that animals will evolve intelligence to match ours given a chance. I was trying to show how I disagree with you.
I'm not sure it's a good idea to disagree with me on that, considering we were once dumber than a lot of the animals around today and we as animals DID evolve that intelligence.
also, I don't kill for pleasure. I do it for a living. With respect and gratitude.
Actually if you eat meat because it tastes good, that's killing for pleasure. If you eat it because you think you'll FEEL better (no one dies from a vegetarian diet after all) then you're killing for comfort. Choose whichever justification you like :P
If they impose it on their children, their children's health will suffer. If you live in a city you can see it happening with junk food. Obese, unhealthy people breeding more of the same. You don't think it will affect the gene pool? Whatever, have fun arguing with folks.
Does 'obese' have to equal 'unhealthy', then?
I am not sure why you read that I was equating obesity with poor health. Even reading it now I don't see it. I'm sorry to anyone who is offended by this. I was equating a diet of junk food with obesity and poor health. Of course many people appear perfectly healthy with a few extra pounds. Still I thought that it was a well proven fact that obesity leads to all kinds of increased risk. Diabetes, heart disease ect. But then I not a doctor and I am gulible enough to believe things I hear and read most of the time. Feel free to correct me here.
Actually if you eat meat because it tastes good, that's killing for pleasure. If you eat it because you think you'll FEEL better (no one dies from a vegetarian diet after all) then you're killing for comfort. Choose whichever justification you like :P
I guess I have an ax to grind here. You see I have a daughter who went from eating no meat to eating no food and then, near death, was admitted to hospital where she lived for seven months. It was fairly traumatic for my family. In fact I have a sister who went through the same thing 20 years ago. Now when ever I see young women fooling around with their diet, I am sceptical about their motives. I would be very surprised to learn that no one has ever died from a veg only diet. As has been posted many time here, some people don't know how to do it properly. I already tried to justify my meat diet to you. I'm happy, you weren't.lol
@robot You don't seem to understand how natural selection, or evolution actually work. FWIW H G Wells was a eugenicist, a now discredited philosophy which ended with the Holocaust.
Do I get a Godwin's Law prize now?
@Ada_B Thank you and I am the first one to admit that my education was short and sweet. Leaving H.G. Wells out of it and in as few words as possible would you mind correcting me where I went wrong.
You see I have a daughter who went from eating no meat to eating no food and then, near death, was admitted to hospital where she lived for seven months. It was fairly traumatic for my family. In fact I have a sister who went through the same thing 20 years ago. Now when ever I see young women fooling around with their diet, I am sceptical about their motives.
I'm sure that was a very difficult experience and my heart goes out to you. (Many blessings for you and your loved ones.)
I include myself in the circle of compassion that I (try) to extend to all beings. This of course means eating properly and thoughtfully. I read pretty frequently about nutrition; try to stay up-to-date as possible. As a Buddhist and a human being, I am trying in earnest to find the balance between self-compassion and compassion for all others. It's a very delicate balance, and I'm certainly open to all input. It's a struggle even to stay open-minded sometimes, but it's the best way to find that ever-elusive balance.
I used to brew beer and I gave it up. Anyhow brewing beer makes a ton of yeast which has B12. It wouldn't be hard just to make a starter of beer with a pack of bread yeast and buy some malt extract from a brew supply shop.
I am not saying to drink the beer, but you could just drink the yeast slurry down like vitamin supplement. You could just continuously feed extract sugars and keep it going at yeast for awhile and then rejuventate occasionally to prevent going to vinegar or whatever.
I'm sure that was a very difficult experience and my heart goes out to you. (Many blessings for you and your loved ones.)
I include myself in the circle of compassion that I (try) to extend to all beings. This of course means eating properly and thoughtfully. I read pretty frequently about nutrition; try to stay up-to-date as possible. As a Buddhist and a human being, I am trying in earnest to find the balance between self-compassion and compassion for all others. It's a very delicate balance, and I'm certainly open to all input. It's a struggle even to stay open-minded sometimes, but it's the best way to find that ever-elusive balance.
Thank you @prettyhowtown. In answer to the question in the thread title I would say yes it matters very much that your vegetarian diet is healthy. From your posts I can see that you feel the same way and have knowledge and mindfulness that my daughter, at 15, did not have. I would not rule out the possibility that other young women, or boys, who are not armed with the same attributes have and will use Buddhist ethics as path into disordered eating or worse.
I'm a vegetarian and nearly finished with a bs in nutrition and I assure you vegetarian can be done healthily and with only minimum effort. Vegan diet will be imposible without supplements. It would be worthwhile for you to get some bloodwork done at this point... Iron, iron storage, hemoglobin, b12, vitamin D first.
Eating some dairy and/or eggs on a daily basis is, imo, a must for vegetarians...in most places, you can easily find dairy and eggs produced by compassionately raised animals.
I'm a vegetarian and nearly finished with a bs in nutrition and I assure you vegetarian can be done healthily and with only minimum effort. Vegan diet will be imposible without supplements. It would be worthwhile for you to get some bloodwork done at this point... Iron, iron storage, hemoglobin, b12, vitamin D first.
Eating some dairy and/or eggs on a daily basis is, imo, a must for vegetarians...in most places, you can easily find dairy and eggs produced by compassionately raised animals.
I'm thinking of converting to full-time vegetarianism (as opposed to veganism), but would like to use a minimum of animal products. Maybe we can take it to PM and you can give me some ideas about how to do this...
Thank you @prettyhowtown. In answer to the question in the thread title I would say yes it matters very much that your vegetarian diet is healthy. From your posts I can see that you feel the same way and have knowledge and mindfulness that my daughter, at 15, did not have. I would not rule out the possibility that other young women, or boys, who are not armed with the same attributes have and will use Buddhist ethics as path into disordered eating or worse.
My sister is a recovered anorexic, robot, so I understand some of what you've been through. It is important to note that for some youngsters, going vegetarian can be a sign of a developing eating disorder - they use it as an excuse for not eating a typical diet, to disguise the fact that they are not eating much at all. My sister went vegetarian shortly before she became ill as well. She currently eats meat as she feels any restriction at all on her diet is a potential trigger, which I totally understand. She had a relapse a couple of years ago so she's still pretty delicate (albeit a healthy weight now).
That is why, whenever a youngster tells me they wish to become vegetarian, I quiz them on their motives, and what sort of things they intend to eat instead. My friend's daughter started off vegetarian, then went vegan, then wanted to become a raw foodist, all in the space of about three months. During this time she dropped a lot of weight.
My suspicions were seriously raised when she came to our house for dinner, shortly after becoming vegetarian, and refused to touch most of the food on offer because she didn't believe I was a "strict" vegetarian. I very much believe in a middle way approach - and following my lama's teachings, I try not to treat meat products as 'contamination' if they should accidentally touch my food (my family eat meat). To say that meat is disgusting is to disrespect the animal who gave its life for that meat. It also disrespects people who have no choice but to eat meat (presumably including a lot of Tibetans, since they cannot grow sufficient crops to sustain them in such an environment).
I tried to explain my point of view, but the kid won't even travel on a bus with leather seats, and reacted in a very OCD way to any animal product - even a watch strap! After I'd explained about being a moderate vegetarian, she was then suspicious that everything I cooked had some sort of animal 'contamination', so she refused to eat. Since then, she has become seriously mentally ill and very thin.
I do not believe this child's vegetarianism, or my sister's, was truly out of compassion. It was out of aversion, which Buddhist's consider one of the three poisons which lead to suffering. So motives are vitally important. Also, compassion has to be for oneself as well - my sister has compassion on herself as she knows she cannot be healthy if she restricts her diet in any way. So even though she cannot be vegetarian, she tries to eat meat that has been compassionately farmed.
I do not believe this child's vegetarianism, or my sister's, was truly out of compassion.
Don't you think that's a bit unkind? I'm sure compassion like all things can be taken to the extreme if unchecked but to say that they just came to that conclusion out of mental illness and not love for the animals doesn't sound accurate to me.
I do not believe this child's vegetarianism, or my sister's, was truly out of compassion.
Don't you think that's a bit unkind? I'm sure compassion like all things can be taken to the extreme if unchecked but to say that they just came to that conclusion out of mental illness and not love for the animals doesn't sound accurate to me.
In these two examples, the cause was a mental illness (eating disorders). But of course that was not their fault: both are compassionate people in ordinary circumstances, but in this case, they were using vegetarianism as an excuse to avoid eating and both have admitted it. So no, I don't think I'm being unkind in these specific circumstances.
More generally, it is possible to do apparently compassionate things for the wrong motives, and I believe it is always important for us to examine our motives for our actions. That is wisdom, which must always accompany compassion.
I believe it is always important for us to examine our motives for our actions. That is wisdom, which must always accompany compassion.
*nods emphatically*
Even when I was an out-and-out vegan, I was hesitant to call myself a vegan because of the extremism attached to that label. I'll buy leather, but only if it's used or recycled. I much prefer used or recycled leather to brand new shoes made in a sweat shop. In any case, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and while the issue with the extreme vegans I've encountered is more an issue of attachment (to the vegan label), rather than aversion, I think it is relevant.
@AdaB Thanks for reminding us to always examine our motives.
In these two examples, the cause was a mental illness (eating disorders). But of course that was not their fault: both are compassionate people in ordinary circumstances, but in this case, they were using vegetarianism as an excuse to avoid eating and both have admitted it.
But vegetarianism has nothing to do with lacking in calories, which was their goal. That's like saying thinking is dangerous because it could lead to murder or any other immoral actions. If someone won't even sit on a bus because of it's leather seats, that sounds like no eating disorder I've ever heard of.
I'm thinking of converting to full-time vegetarianism (as opposed to veganism), but would like to use a minimum of animal products. Maybe we can take it to PM and you can give me some ideas about how to do this...
I am not sure why you read that I was equating obesity with poor health. Even reading it now I don't see it.
It was your use of the term 'obese, unhealthy people'. You know, using the terms together, like one automatically leads to the other.
I'm sorry to anyone who is offended by this.
I wasn't offended; I'm used to the assumption that obese equals unhealthy and I go out of my way to challenge it wherever I find it.
I was equating a diet of junk food with obesity and poor health.
Remove the words 'obesity and' and your argument is valid. But not all people who live on 'a diet of junk food' are obese, and not all people who are obese live on such a diet.
Of course many people appear perfectly healthy with a few extra pounds.
Please define your definition of 'a few'.
Still I thought that it was a well proven fact that obesity leads to all kinds of increased risk.
Obesity CAN lead to increased risk of certain types of disease, but as with any other risk factor this is dependent on a whole load of other factors.
Diabetes, heart disease ect.
People who are not obese are not immune from these things either. Diet, lifestyle and genes are the deciding factors, regardless of body weight.
But then I not a doctor and I am gulible enough to believe things I hear and read most of the time. Feel free to correct me here.
@ada_b that is very interesting about your sister. My sister actually did the same thing, she became vegetarian and then became anorexic (well i could have been the other way around too). I can't speak for her motives on becoming a vegetarian, but I suspect that it was closely tied to the anorexia. She actually lost so much weight that she went into menapause while in high school. I am happy to report that she is back to normal now.
I guess this all points to the importance of intention.
Lying on the blood donation bed in a camp, I was thinking that I am donating my blood to save life of somebody unknown but would it make sense if I took somebody unknown's life to make my food. I turned vegetarian in a split second, and am physically and mentally fit since then.
You say diet is more important than body weight in regards to health, but they are closely connected - if you eat a fatty, sugary, diet, then over time you will become obese. Alternatively it can be because you don't exercise enough to burn the energy you consume even from a healthy diet. Our possibly a combination of poor diet and lack of exercise. For these reasons, and public health stats, I think it's not unreasonable to link poor health with obesity..
I think his or her point is that obesity is commonly caused by physical problems or even genetics and to lump those people into the "lazy" class is really unfair.
Hey Gumby, did you really think that is what he is doing here? I did not see anyone talking about laziness except you. Some of the hardest working people I know don't get enough exercise. They would be seriously offended to hear you calling them lazy.
Also, I laugh when someone who thinks obese people shouldn't BREED tries to tell me what is or is not offensive.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
edited October 2011
thank you all for sharing your stories on how eating disorders are sometimes masked with "vegetarianism". i must admit, my initial reaction to robot's comments were extreme annoyance. i'm quite thin, so i'm sometimes accused of an eating disorder (usually bulimia though, because i eat so much). this hasn't happened as often over the past year or two (since my job makes me rather muscular), but it's still a rather sore spot for me. it helped me understand why sometimes people accuse me of such things in regards to my vegetarianism. i actually didn't know that was such a common problem. i just hope that people know that not EVERY vegetarian is doing it to become thin. i know tons of vegetarians and not one of them displays any of these behaviors.
i don't know if i should mention that i actually did have an eating disorder in high school, but it wasn't about being "thin" but rather, control and self-hatred. it was more similar to an apathetic suicide attempt. but that's another topic altogether... my vegetarianism came years later and is unrelated to that (i was struggling with being gay).
I was actually skinny for much of my life. Then I had kids and my metabolism changed. Now I'm on medication that can cause weight gain, so its a constant struggle to keep my weight down, healthily.
I was a skinny meat-eater, now I'm a fat vegetarian! And I'm a bad advert for vegetarianism, in that I have a chronic illness so people assume it's my diet (it isn't). But I went vegetarian because I've always been horribly fussy about meat and fish, and it just seemed easier to stop eating it. So now I can be a smug vegetarian (even though the truth is, I'm not keen on meat anyway, LOL).
All of which illustrates that samsaric 'real life', as opposed to our fantasies about how life should be, is considerably more complex than people generally realise. And you should never judge a person, or a situation, by the outside.
Sorry to have hijacked; please carry on the veggie discussion with no further interruptions from me!
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
@Ada_B that's pretty much what my family tells me. all of the women in my family tend to be very thin until they have children, which changes our metabolism. i'm interested to see what will happen to me since i don't plan on ever having kids.
i actually never lost any weight when i switched to vegetarianism, although people always say things like, "OH, so THAT'S why you're so thin." but it really doesn't seem to have had any effect on my weight. i will say though, when i was a meat eater, i was rather used to fluctuations in my digestion/bowel movements and when i was younger, i assumed this was normal. after being a vegetarian though, i became a lot more in tune with my body and it's interesting because i now know which foods will cause me trouble. for example, even any vegetarian greasy fried foods will probably cause me some sort of discomfort. i feel as though i can tell what is good and bad for me, but when i ate meat, i felt like crap all the time so i never could pinpoint what caused it. i don't know if this is typical. but in this way, i do think i naturally aim to eat healthier as a result of cutting meat out.
as it happens, i've eaten meat/meat broth a few times over the past few weeks (still sticking to my "will not choose to purchase/order meat, but will eat it if given" philosophy) and i've had so much trouble, i'm thinking about going strict again. i feel like it's been several months since i stopped being so strict, but my body never quite seems to adjust and i'm not sure how long this will take. i feel like my body is angry with me... does anyone on this board have information on how long it takes a body to adjust to eating meat again? i would think by now that my body would have started producing the enzymes to break it down again, but perhaps because it's still so infrequent, i could be wrong.
I agree with your thoughts about hunting. I think that hunting an animal for food is FAR better than simply eating meat from a supermarket shelf.
The problem with modern industrial farming is that, whilst striving for ever-higher yield and profit, serious compromises have been made in terms of animal welfare, and furthermore, the markerting and distribution of the end product is deliberately deceptive to make people picture happy farm animals living in green fields of grass, when the reality is so, so, far from that. The reality is billions of animals living in horrible conditions, animals mis-shaped and horribly infected, and animals killed en masse without regard to their feelings (pigs are at least as intelligent as dogs - can you imagine if people treated their pets like we treat farmed animals?). The reality is so disgusting that factory farms don't let people film them, which just shows you what kind of place they really are (and why animal rights groups sometimes need to break the law to reveal the truth).
Okay. Here's how I do it. It can be healthy with dedicated time and enegy. I got one of those HUGE Post It Easel Pads and I wrote down every vitamin, mineral and other such things that you need daily. And I filled it with foods and combinations of foods that can get me to that point. I use it a lot to save money at the store. But I spend time planning out my meals a week in advance so I can know and make sure I get everything I need. It isn't healthy if all you eat is pasta. That's how I do it.
I've been a vegan for six months and a vegetarian for eight years
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
I agree with your thoughts about hunting. I think that hunting an animal for food is FAR better than simply eating meat from a supermarket shelf.
thank you, but i think we are in the minority. but logically, it just doesn't seem to make sense why it is okay to partake in eating meat because SOMEONE ELSE killed it. if it's wrong to kill, then shouldn't it be wrong to enjoy the 'fruits of the labor'? obviously, i'm referring to those of us living in the first world countries, not those living in cultures where this type of diet is not sustainable. but still, no one has answered this question for me.
thank you, but i think we are in the minority. but logically, it just doesn't seem to make sense why it is okay to partake in eating meat because SOMEONE ELSE killed it. if it's wrong to kill, then shouldn't it be wrong to enjoy the 'fruits of the labor'? obviously, i'm referring to those of us living in the first world countries, not those living in cultures where this type of diet is not sustainable. but still, no one has answered this question for me.
I think we're in danger of thinking of this in Western (monotheistic) terms. It is not so much about it being 'wrong' as the fact of killing generates bad karma. So if you don't kill, you don't generate bad karma, directly, at any rate.
OTOH, since we're Buddhists and we're going for a slightly higher standard than simply avoiding bad karma, we have to ask how compassionate it is to either kill animals ourselves, or expect someone else to do it for us? Personally, I think it is not compassionate to dump all our bad karma onto some poor butcher! (although it is probably his choice to be a butcher).
It may well be more compassionate to humanely kill our own animals for meat, than to take no responsibility and let some horrible factory farm do it. But surely the ideal would be to avoid killing entirely?
Hey, you could always eat road kill We have a guy in England who calls himself the Road-kill Chef. Badger souffle, anyone?
Someone said something to the effect of, "If you believe in karma, then the animals are animals for a reason," which is an absolutely atrocious justification for farming, killing and eating them, particularly in such barbaric ways with no consideration for the emotional well being of the animals.
This is akin to saying, "Person A did this so person B is justified to kill them." That may be considered acceptable in a purely ignorant, conventional sense, but person B will still incur negative karma for the act of killing. The sole exception to this rule is demonstrated by this parable, relayed by HHDL:
[quote]A plainly dressed bodhisattva is traveling across a river by boat with five other passengers; four arhats, a lone traveler and the ferryman. As they draw near the middle of the river, he notices the lone man reaching under his robe and, being a great bodhisattva, sees clearly that this man is drawing a dagger to kill and rob the others on the boat. As the man lunges for the throat of the nearest passenger, the bodhisattva strikes him down out of compassion for the other passengers, killing him.[/quote]
Note several key points of this parable. First, the person doing the justified killing is a bodhisattva of high attainment. We know the bodhisattva is of high attainment because he/she possesses the power to see clearly events in the near future. Additionally, the people he is protecting include arhats and himself, a bodhisattva of high attainment. In this sense he is actually protecting the would be murderer/robber by killing him!!! Because killing a bodhisattva or an arhat is awful karma! Much better to die a quick death and try again in another life than successfully kill such beings by act of volition. Imagine the awful karma of the murderer of Dr. Martin Luther King for a moment. Wouldn't it have been merciful if a bodhisattva killed him before he could crystallize his plan and then execute it.
Now following your logic, this would be murderer/robber may be reborn as a cow due to the bad karma he incurred in his past life, perhaps because he killed and robbed others or simply because he conspired and attempted and sincerely wished to kill a bodhisattva. However, this cow is completely harmless. Indeed, quite serene as it sits around munching grass and producing methane. It poses no threat to anything aside from grass, and it is certainly not a threat to any enlightened beings or highly attained spiritual practitioners. What then is the justification for someone to kill this cow? Because they assume that all cows are former wanna-be murderers? What if this cow is actually on its thousandth life as a lower form, having lived numerous harmless existences, gradually working its way up from the depths of no-potential? In this sense, this cow has great merit and could be reborn as a human in its next life. And yet here comes Mr. Ignorant Human who believes that his impeccable understanding of karma gives him free license to slaughter any lower life form he sees fit. He is BETTER than them by the very nature of his form and the GREATNESS of his consciousness -- which is clearly above and beyond any simple cow. And so this WONDERFUL example of a human being slaughters the cow of great merit, and in so doing, resigns himself to countless rebirths in the lower realms.
Now there are other methods for slaying animals for human consumption. For example, in Tibetan culture they eat meat (Very hard to grow much up there) but they take incredible care of the animals, bless them daily, slaughter them humanely and appreciate every morsel that these magnificent beings provide. At least such was the case before the Chinese invasion. Now, since we are writing in English it stands to reason that no such mechanism for carefully, ethically and considerately raising livestock and slaughtering them for consumption exists. Factory farming in the West is an absolute nightmare of abuse, and any willful participation in it is na-na-good if you ask me. Especially for anyone who read this post, because now you KNOW what the ramifications are deep down inside... You KNOW what goes on in those factory farms, and you KNOW that karma is no excuse to participate in that barbarism, so now if you continue to do so you will incur even worse karma. Such is the process of refining our volitional acts. The deeper our knowledge of reality the more profound its implications in our lives.
I'm starting to see more organic things at major grocery stores. They are testing the waters. I purchased a package of chicken that was non-antibiotic and free range. Meat eaters please vote with your dollars.
What do you think about ritual methods of slaughter, such as halal?
Is it true that a lot of Tibetans in India eat halal meat bought from Muslim butchers?
I believe that in situations where it is necessary to eat meat, ritual slaughter is certainly preferable to the alternatives, especially factory farming. That being said, nearly everyone living in the West is capable of eating vegetarian. They simply choose not to out of habit, and they cling to unsound beliefs that not eating meat is gravely unhealthy and fraught with problems. This is only true for people with very specific genetic make-up or medical conditions, such as groups of people who evolved over long periods of time in very harsh conditions. e.g. Inuits and Pan-Tibetans (Including modern Nepal, etc.), Saharan African tribes, etc. These groups of people have specific dietary needs due to eating very limited diets for a very long time.
What do you think about ritual methods of slaughter, such as halal?
In 2003, the Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), an independent advisory group, concluded that the way halal and kosher meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals and should be banned immediately. The ritual method of slaughter as practiced in Islam and Judaism has been described as inhumane by animal welfare organizations in the U.K. and the U.S.A., who have stated that it "causes severe suffering to animals." The religious slaughter of livestock has so far been banned in Luxembourg, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. Turkey is the first predominantly Muslim country where such a ban is being discussed in political circles. The Dutch parliament is also considering banning it.
Comments
Do I get a Godwin's Law prize now?
Would you settle for runner up of the Godwin's Law Prize?
Either way, sounds like you've never heard of social evolution which would be more impressive anyway since it would be self enforced rather than an uncontrollable set of circumstances. I like how you "BELIEVE" that we'll just get dumber, when in reality the meat eating brain growing event already took place and is stuck in our dna regardless our diet for the foreseeable future.
And to put the nail in the coffin of your argument, how much meat do you think people are gonna be eating when in next couple hundred years when there is absolutely no room to even raise the animals? Unless you think eating meat for 2 generations is going to give you magic powers, you might as well stop killing for pleasure.
I include myself in the circle of compassion that I (try) to extend to all beings. This of course means eating properly and thoughtfully. I read pretty frequently about nutrition; try to stay up-to-date as possible. As a Buddhist and a human being, I am trying in earnest to find the balance between self-compassion and compassion for all others. It's a very delicate balance, and I'm certainly open to all input. It's a struggle even to stay open-minded sometimes, but it's the best way to find that ever-elusive balance.
I am not saying to drink the beer, but you could just drink the yeast slurry down like vitamin supplement. You could just continuously feed extract sugars and keep it going at yeast for awhile and then rejuventate occasionally to prevent going to vinegar or whatever.
Has anyone tried this?
Eating some dairy and/or eggs on a daily basis is, imo, a must for vegetarians...in most places, you can easily find dairy and eggs produced by compassionately raised animals.
That is why, whenever a youngster tells me they wish to become vegetarian, I quiz them on their motives, and what sort of things they intend to eat instead. My friend's daughter started off vegetarian, then went vegan, then wanted to become a raw foodist, all in the space of about three months. During this time she dropped a lot of weight.
My suspicions were seriously raised when she came to our house for dinner, shortly after becoming vegetarian, and refused to touch most of the food on offer because she didn't believe I was a "strict" vegetarian. I very much believe in a middle way approach - and following my lama's teachings, I try not to treat meat products as 'contamination' if they should accidentally touch my food (my family eat meat). To say that meat is disgusting is to disrespect the animal who gave its life for that meat. It also disrespects people who have no choice but to eat meat (presumably including a lot of Tibetans, since they cannot grow sufficient crops to sustain them in such an environment).
I tried to explain my point of view, but the kid won't even travel on a bus with leather seats, and reacted in a very OCD way to any animal product - even a watch strap! After I'd explained about being a moderate vegetarian, she was then suspicious that everything I cooked had some sort of animal 'contamination', so she refused to eat. Since then, she has become seriously mentally ill and very thin.
I do not believe this child's vegetarianism, or my sister's, was truly out of compassion. It was out of aversion, which Buddhist's consider one of the three poisons which lead to suffering. So motives are vitally important. Also, compassion has to be for oneself as well - my sister has compassion on herself as she knows she cannot be healthy if she restricts her diet in any way. So even though she cannot be vegetarian, she tries to eat meat that has been compassionately farmed.
More generally, it is possible to do apparently compassionate things for the wrong motives, and I believe it is always important for us to examine our motives for our actions. That is wisdom, which must always accompany compassion.
Even when I was an out-and-out vegan, I was hesitant to call myself a vegan because of the extremism attached to that label. I'll buy leather, but only if it's used or recycled. I much prefer used or recycled leather to brand new shoes made in a sweat shop. In any case, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and while the issue with the extreme vegans I've encountered is more an issue of attachment (to the vegan label), rather than aversion, I think it is relevant.
@AdaB Thanks for reminding us to always examine our motives.
People cover up their true intentions sometimes.
We are capable even of fooling ourselves.
We find a very “moral” reason to cover up our harmful intentions. Usualy we call that politics.
...and a multitude of other voices on the Internet that are challenging the 'fat equals unhealthy' dogma.
I guess this all points to the importance of intention.
You say diet is more important than body weight in regards to health, but they are closely connected - if you eat a fatty, sugary, diet, then over time you will become obese. Alternatively it can be because you don't exercise enough to burn the energy you consume even from a healthy diet. Our possibly a combination of poor diet and lack of exercise. For these reasons, and public health stats, I think it's not unreasonable to link poor health with obesity..
Also, I laugh when someone who thinks obese people shouldn't BREED tries to tell me what is or is not offensive.
i don't know if i should mention that i actually did have an eating disorder in high school, but it wasn't about being "thin" but rather, control and self-hatred. it was more similar to an apathetic suicide attempt. but that's another topic altogether... my vegetarianism came years later and is unrelated to that (i was struggling with being gay).
I was actually skinny for much of my life. Then I had kids and my metabolism changed. Now I'm on medication that can cause weight gain, so its a constant struggle to keep my weight down, healthily.
I was a skinny meat-eater, now I'm a fat vegetarian! And I'm a bad advert for vegetarianism, in that I have a chronic illness so people assume it's my diet (it isn't). But I went vegetarian because I've always been horribly fussy about meat and fish, and it just seemed easier to stop eating it. So now I can be a smug vegetarian (even though the truth is, I'm not keen on meat anyway, LOL).
All of which illustrates that samsaric 'real life', as opposed to our fantasies about how life should be, is considerably more complex than people generally realise. And you should never judge a person, or a situation, by the outside.
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/12552/the-obesity-health-connection-debate-continued...#Item_1
Sorry to have hijacked; please carry on the veggie discussion with no further interruptions from me!
i actually never lost any weight when i switched to vegetarianism, although people always say things like, "OH, so THAT'S why you're so thin." but it really doesn't seem to have had any effect on my weight. i will say though, when i was a meat eater, i was rather used to fluctuations in my digestion/bowel movements and when i was younger, i assumed this was normal. after being a vegetarian though, i became a lot more in tune with my body and it's interesting because i now know which foods will cause me trouble. for example, even any vegetarian greasy fried foods will probably cause me some sort of discomfort. i feel as though i can tell what is good and bad for me, but when i ate meat, i felt like crap all the time so i never could pinpoint what caused it. i don't know if this is typical. but in this way, i do think i naturally aim to eat healthier as a result of cutting meat out.
as it happens, i've eaten meat/meat broth a few times over the past few weeks (still sticking to my "will not choose to purchase/order meat, but will eat it if given" philosophy) and i've had so much trouble, i'm thinking about going strict again. i feel like it's been several months since i stopped being so strict, but my body never quite seems to adjust and i'm not sure how long this will take. i feel like my body is angry with me... does anyone on this board have information on how long it takes a body to adjust to eating meat again? i would think by now that my body would have started producing the enzymes to break it down again, but perhaps because it's still so infrequent, i could be wrong.
I agree with your thoughts about hunting. I think that hunting an animal for food is FAR better than simply eating meat from a supermarket shelf.
The problem with modern industrial farming is that, whilst striving for ever-higher yield and profit, serious compromises have been made in terms of animal welfare, and furthermore, the markerting and distribution of the end product is deliberately deceptive to make people picture happy farm animals living in green fields of grass, when the reality is so, so, far from that. The reality is billions of animals living in horrible conditions, animals mis-shaped and horribly infected, and animals killed en masse without regard to their feelings (pigs are at least as intelligent as dogs - can you imagine if people treated their pets like we treat farmed animals?). The reality is so disgusting that factory farms don't let people film them, which just shows you what kind of place they really are (and why animal rights groups sometimes need to break the law to reveal the truth).
I've been a vegan for six months and a vegetarian for eight years
OTOH, since we're Buddhists and we're going for a slightly higher standard than simply avoiding bad karma, we have to ask how compassionate it is to either kill animals ourselves, or expect someone else to do it for us? Personally, I think it is not compassionate to dump all our bad karma onto some poor butcher! (although it is probably his choice to be a butcher).
It may well be more compassionate to humanely kill our own animals for meat, than to take no responsibility and let some horrible factory farm do it. But surely the ideal would be to avoid killing entirely?
Hey, you could always eat road kill
This is akin to saying, "Person A did this so person B is justified to kill them." That may be considered acceptable in a purely ignorant, conventional sense, but person B will still incur negative karma for the act of killing. The sole exception to this rule is demonstrated by this parable, relayed by HHDL:
[quote]A plainly dressed bodhisattva is traveling across a river by boat with five other passengers; four arhats, a lone traveler and the ferryman. As they draw near the middle of the river, he notices the lone man reaching under his robe and, being a great bodhisattva, sees clearly that this man is drawing a dagger to kill and rob the others on the boat. As the man lunges for the throat of the nearest passenger, the bodhisattva strikes him down out of compassion for the other passengers, killing him.[/quote]
Note several key points of this parable. First, the person doing the justified killing is a bodhisattva of high attainment. We know the bodhisattva is of high attainment because he/she possesses the power to see clearly events in the near future. Additionally, the people he is protecting include arhats and himself, a bodhisattva of high attainment. In this sense he is actually protecting the would be murderer/robber by killing him!!! Because killing a bodhisattva or an arhat is awful karma! Much better to die a quick death and try again in another life than successfully kill such beings by act of volition. Imagine the awful karma of the murderer of Dr. Martin Luther King for a moment. Wouldn't it have been merciful if a bodhisattva killed him before he could crystallize his plan and then execute it.
Now following your logic, this would be murderer/robber may be reborn as a cow due to the bad karma he incurred in his past life, perhaps because he killed and robbed others or simply because he conspired and attempted and sincerely wished to kill a bodhisattva. However, this cow is completely harmless. Indeed, quite serene as it sits around munching grass and producing methane. It poses no threat to anything aside from grass, and it is certainly not a threat to any enlightened beings or highly attained spiritual practitioners. What then is the justification for someone to kill this cow? Because they assume that all cows are former wanna-be murderers? What if this cow is actually on its thousandth life as a lower form, having lived numerous harmless existences, gradually working its way up from the depths of no-potential? In this sense, this cow has great merit and could be reborn as a human in its next life. And yet here comes Mr. Ignorant Human who believes that his impeccable understanding of karma gives him free license to slaughter any lower life form he sees fit. He is BETTER than them by the very nature of his form and the GREATNESS of his consciousness -- which is clearly above and beyond any simple cow. And so this WONDERFUL example of a human being slaughters the cow of great merit, and in so doing, resigns himself to countless rebirths in the lower realms.
Now there are other methods for slaying animals for human consumption. For example, in Tibetan culture they eat meat (Very hard to grow much up there) but they take incredible care of the animals, bless them daily, slaughter them humanely and appreciate every morsel that these magnificent beings provide. At least such was the case before the Chinese invasion. Now, since we are writing in English it stands to reason that no such mechanism for carefully, ethically and considerately raising livestock and slaughtering them for consumption exists. Factory farming in the West is an absolute nightmare of abuse, and any willful participation in it is na-na-good if you ask me. Especially for anyone who read this post, because now you KNOW what the ramifications are deep down inside... You KNOW what goes on in those factory farms, and you KNOW that karma is no excuse to participate in that barbarism, so now if you continue to do so you will incur even worse karma. Such is the process of refining our volitional acts. The deeper our knowledge of reality the more profound its implications in our lives.
Eat meat at your own risk!
Is the OP about mental of physical health?
Physical, I guess very healthy. Mental such thoughts of what is better are very unhealthy.
Food is food, don't kill or steal for it, if possible.
Is it true that a lot of Tibetans in India eat halal meat bought from Muslim butchers?