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Is vegetarianism healthy? Does it matter if it's healthy?
going vegan has been the best decision i've ever made... i've seen incredible improvements in my physical and mental health... i've read all the comments in this thread... there are excellent sources of complete protein available to the vegan/vegetarian, it's utter nonsense to try and tell someone animal based protein is superior... granted a plant based diet could be lacking in B12 but a vegan can easily overcome this by simply supplementing with sublingual B12... sublingual B12 is more bio available to the body then getting it through meat consumption anyway... in all honesty i do take mineral(in chelated form), B complex and vitamin C supplements but so should a meat eater... i would also recommend using the capsule form over tablet as it is more rapidly absorbed by your body...
some of the arrogance and ridicule coming from the "meat eating Buddhists" here blows my mind... i've only been a Buddhist for nine months now but during that time i've discovered that the Buddha was vegetarian/vegan... how can any Buddhist eat meat when one of our goals should be to end all suffering? animals are sentient beings with their own distinct level of consciousness...
The message I'm trying to convey is that eating vegetarian does not make one more or less compassionate. It is one's actions.
Your diet choices ARE 'your actions'. By choosing not to eat meat, you are reducing demand for the killing of animals - an act of compassion.
Of course killing an animal is not compassionate but buying meat and eating it is neither good or bad.
By eating meat that you pay for, you increase demand for killing animals. Economics 101.
If being a vegetarian is a noble and compassionate thing to do then don't you think the Buddha himself would be a vegetarian?
He only ate meat if offered, and even then he made sure that it wasn't killed for him. He never 'ordered' it. Big difference.
Oh no the attack of the militant self righteous vegetarians. I've been warned about you guys. By the way just had a big juicy steak with mashed potatoes and gravy. Very delicious to say the least...
Tenzin Palmo, a Western Tibetan Buddhist nun, makes some interesting points in this series of videos.
One of the things she says that I found interesting (and hard to understand) is this: not eating meat is a more compassionate thing to do, but it has clearly nothing to do with becoming enlightened, as many enlightened beings ate meat.
Tenzin Palmo, a Western Tibetan Buddhist nun, makes some interesting points in a series of videos at shabkar.org.
One of the things she says that I found interesting (and hard to understand) is this: not eating meat is a more compassionate thing to do, but it has clearly nothing to do with becoming enlightened, as many enlightened beings ate meat.
Food for thought. (no pun intended)
I'm not sure I understand. By eating meat (assuming it was killed for them, unlike the Buddha) are they not, by their actions, stating that they are in a way more valuable than that being, and deserve life more than it? Not to mention it usually doesn't come down to survival anyway, and we usually only eat meat out of preference. Unless there's some other factor that I'm missing...Please convince me, I miss chicken sandwiches =(.
I've noticed that people love to point out all the potential “problems” with a vegan/vegetarian diet. And yet, the mainstream diet in Western countries (high in meat, saturated fats, processed chemicals, additives and sugars) is actually far far more problematic in so many ways (health, ethics, environment).
Namaste
yes, i love this. i'm not sure why, but the best i can figure is that some meat eaters tend to see it as vegetarians being judgmental, and therefore take personal offense. some people get seriously irritated by it. it's obnoxious, but you'll never stop some people from thinking this world revolves around themselves and everything you do has some sort of connection to them. when a car gets right behind me on my ass and then speeds around me, i still have a little ego inside going, "uhh, HELLO, i was going the speed limit!" as if them speeding around me is somehow a judgement... when in reality, i shouldn't take that personally. who cares if i'm not going fast enough for some people. same thing...
@Zombiegirl, I think that there are quite a few vegetarians out there that are overly sensitive to any criticism of vegetarianism.
If I point that I have had friends whose vegetarian diets have contributed to health problems, I am condemned for attacking vegetarians. I'm happy to also admit that I have quite a few friends, and I even include myself, who have health issues due to a meat-eating diet. In fact, I've never personally seen a person who eats meat say that eating meat is a panacea to good health.
I've also never heard a meat eater tell a vegetarian, "You're going to go to hell for your eating habits", but I sure as heck have heard vegetarians say to meat eaters that, or similar claims of being "evil" or "you won't reach enlightenment" or "you are accumulating bad karma".
I belong to a group of senior-ish people who play Bunko once a month, and we rotate through the 12 participants' homes through the year. We have a vegetarian in our group. So that month we all know that the rest of us are going to have to eat a vegetarian lunch, and so we have a choice to do so, or not eat, or bring a sandwich. For us non-vegetarians she provides a pasta salad for us to enjoy. Of course, that isn't quite as kind as it may seem, because several group have diabetes and are not supposed to eat pasta, or the deserts she includes -- cakes and cookies. But we all cope. And when she comes to our houses, none of us builds our menu around her. She just brings a salad in a plastic container.
11 of us think it's an odd diet. But we're not condemning her. It's her choice to be a vegetarian. And I respect that choice.
I'm not a vegetarian either, but I'm not riled up because other people are vegetarians or vegans. No one is trying to make you eat artichokes here, or feel guilty about eating a chicken leg, dude, so why get so worked up about it? :-/
People and their views crack me up sometimes. Odd that paul feels threatened, eh?
Prettyhowtown, it seems as though you're aware of the health needs of your diet, so my guess is that your observation about stress could be a factor. Do you unwind?
1. Where did I say compassion is a false attachment? If you're saying compassion and vegetarianism are connected then that would be a false view.
If something directly causes something else, how can they not be connected? Vegetarianism is often a result of compassion, in these times, they are intrinsically connected as one is the direct cause of the other.
2. Then by your reasoning avoiding eating vegetables would also be compassionate since pesticides are used to kill many sentient beings in order to grow them.
Yes it would be, but not eating vegetable is simply unreasonable because you would die.
3. According to some of the most respected historians, Hitler was indeed a vegetarian.
Hitler was also a schizophrenic sociopath. What Hitler was or wasn't is pretty much irrelevant.
4. Peta doesn't count as an organization.
Perhaps you could argue that. However, the American Dietetic Association is and they hold the same view and they are the single largest body of nutritional professionals in the world.
@aMatt I do unwind, yes. I went through a period in my previous job that, even at home, I felt absolutely drained of all energy and joy because of my stress levels. Paradoxically, I slept very poorly, having difficulty falling asleep and staying asleep, and waking up at least one hour before I needed. I didn't really have time to address my stress in a meaningful way, being that I worked 9 hours a day, five days a week at a day care (constantly bombarded by germs, too). Truly I think the 40 hour work week is unreasonable, especially when one works in a place in which it's very difficult to get time off and the environment is fast-paced and stressful.
Meditation has certainly helped with stress levels. Since quitting my job (my husband works full-time so it wasn't really a threat to my well-being not to work) I have spent a lot more time attending to my own needs, and sleeping and resting more, attending to hobbies, and just enjoying myself. Maybe I just need to be patient.
One of the things she says that I found interesting (and hard to understand) is this: not eating meat is a more compassionate thing to do, but it has clearly nothing to do with becoming enlightened, as many enlightened beings ate meat.
Food for thought. (no pun intended)
Maybe she meant enlightened beings, who, like Shakyamuni Buddha, ate what they were offered? Or did I miss something here...
I'm pretty sure she also means many masters in Tibet, who ate meat. But there were exceptions as well, like Shabkar.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
@vinlyn don't get me wrong, i'm aware that there are vegetarians who are a little over the top... my cousin, for example, refuses to kiss her boyfriend if he's eaten meat and hasn't brushed his teeth. i have had friends in the past who were shocked and appalled when other non-veg friends would order meat and eat it in front of them. i have never understood why people force their opinions on others.
i never expect people to go out of their way for me, and i sort of hate it when they do. this is part of the reason that i've started eating meat in a group situation. i don't like to be the one that complicates everything. i hate when i show up for dinner somewhere and the host is mortified that no one informed them i was a vegetarian... and i also hate having to be like, "oh, by the way, i'm a vegetarian... i know that all of your specialties involve meat, but all i ask is that you go out of your way to make something special for me." lolz. some people are happy to do it, but some people just look at you and go, "great... what can i possibly feed you?"
You know the story of Shunryu Suzuki going to a restaurant with one of his students who was veg. Suzuki ordered a meat burger and the student a veg one. After a while Suzuki said he doesn't like his burger and would his student like to swap with him. Great teaching
One of the things she says that I found interesting (and hard to understand) is this: not eating meat is a more compassionate thing to do, but it has clearly nothing to do with becoming enlightened, as many enlightened beings ate meat.
Food for thought. (no pun intended)
These are my thoughts on this. Enlightenment, being the wisdom realizing emptiness, is a result of developing concentration and insight through meditation. A diet whether it is vegetarian or meat, that promotes a healthy body and brain, will aid in meditation and the development of deeper insight. If someone is either malnourished or obese and suffering from high blood pressure ect. they will find sitting or walking in meditation more difficult. Also, they may be worried or obsessed with their health problems and unable to develop concentration needed for awakening. If someone is wracked with guilt from the suffering of beings caused by their diet, (or stealing, or lying,) it will make meditation difficult. No ill health, no guilt, no problem. Thats my view at the moment.
This might not help but what I don't understand is how meat eaters justify it to themselves in the first place if they stop and think about it. The only reason we tolerate raising beings with personalities (is that not the definition of a person? :P) purely to be killed and eaten is because they can't talk. Or maybe some people say they aren't that intelligent.
If those were the prerequisites to be able to legally kill something, then what about all the humans that can't speak? Or are brain dead? Or just born with such severe disabilities?
Then you might argue that as a human they had the potential to do those things. Well, every animal has the potential to evolve and be every bit as intelligent as us.
I wikipedia'd it and apparently it's a "law" that given enough time, every internet conversation will eventually include someone comparing someone to the nazis lol.
I wikipedia'd it and apparently it's a "law" that given enough time, every internet conversation will eventually include someone comparing someone to the nazis lol.
Meditation has certainly helped with stress levels. Since quitting my job (my husband works full-time so it wasn't really a threat to my well-being not to work) I have spent a lot more time attending to my own needs, and sleeping and resting more, attending to hobbies, and just enjoying myself. Maybe I just need to be patient.
I think patience is always good to cultivate. Sometimes when we're in a high stress situation for a long period of time, it can take a while to recoup. If our body becomes conditioned to have a stress response to our envionment, we might project the same disturbed emotions where they don't fit anymore... maintaining levels of body response even after the situation has passed. The things you're doing already sound great.
Meditation, nuturing activities (baths, massage, art), rest, eating well. Another thing that comes to mind, is if you feel a sense of mental blergyness (medical term ) perhaps consider some charity work. Helping others really increases our sense of buoyancy and satisfaction.
This might not help but what I don't understand is how meat eaters justify it to themselves in the first place if they stop and think about it. The only reason we tolerate raising beings with personalities (is that not the definition of a person? :P) purely to be killed and eaten is because they can't talk. Or maybe some people say they aren't that intelligent.
If those were the prerequisites to be able to legally kill something, then what about all the humans that can't speak? Or are brain dead? Or just born with such severe disabilities?
Then you might argue that as a human they had the potential to do those things. Well, every animal has the potential to evolve and be every bit as intelligent as us.
Of course our intelligence is a survival mechanism evolved over tens or hundreds of thousands of years. I think it fair to assume that animal husbandry is an evolutionary trait of humans. Many creatures, sharks for example evolved into their present form a hundred million years ago. Our intelligence would not help them much. In fact most fish have evolved survival mechanisms that do not involve intelligence as we think of it. Its a regular arms race down there. A ten pound ling cod can swallow a whole five pound rockfish bristling with 3 inch spines. And then get eaten by a 20 pound ling cod. The rockfish does not want to be eaten, but I guess you could say that he expects it to happen. He is busy gobbling up what ever he can sink his teeth into. Sometimes I think our intelligence gets in the way of seeing whats really going on. Hows that for a justification?
This might not help but what I don't understand is how meat eaters justify it to themselves in the first place if they stop and think about it. The only reason we tolerate raising beings with personalities (is that not the definition of a person? :P) purely to be killed and eaten is because they can't talk. Or maybe some people say they aren't that intelligent.
If those were the prerequisites to be able to legally kill something, then what about all the humans that can't speak? Or are brain dead? Or just born with such severe disabilities?
Then you might argue that as a human they had the potential to do those things. Well, every animal has the potential to evolve and be every bit as intelligent as us.
Of course our intelligence is a survival mechanism evolved over tens or hundreds of thousands of years. I think it fair to assume that animal husbandry is an evolutionary trait of humans. Many creatures, sharks for example evolved into their present form a hundred million years ago. Our intelligence would not help them much. In fact most fish have evolved survival mechanisms that do not involve intelligence as we think of it. Its a regular arms race down there. A ten pound ling cod can swallow a whole five pound rockfish bristling with 3 inch spines. And then get eaten by a 20 pound ling cod. The rockfish does not want to be eaten, but I guess you could say that he expects it to happen. He is busy gobbling up what ever he can sink his teeth into. Sometimes I think our intelligence gets in the way of seeing whats really going on. Hows that for a justification?
You act like we're the end result of evolution... You do realize there is no end to it right?
And what in the hell could you possibly mean by your last sentence? You think that since something happens in nature we might as well not try to improve and just do whatever everyone else is doing? Intelligence get's in the way of seeing what's really going on... Now that's a claim. Without intelligence you wouldn't have a concept of comparing and would never think about the past relative to the present and future... How are we going to understand more about "whats really going on" without intelligence? By the way, I'd really love to hear your opinion of what really is "going on" if you don't mind.
You act like we're the end result of evolution... You do realize there is no end to it right?
And what in the hell could you possibly mean by your last sentence? You think that since something happens in nature we might as well not try to improve and just do whatever everyone else is doing? Intelligence get's in the way of seeing what's really going on... Now that's a claim. Without intelligence you wouldn't have a concept of comparing and would never think about the past relative to the present and future... How are we going to understand more about "whats really going on" without intelligence? By the way, I'd really love to hear your opinion of what really is "going on" if you don't mind.
Nah, I doubt if we are the end of evolution. Sharks will be here long after we have gone. I thought my last sentence was pretty obvious. You were wondering about how a meat eater justifies himself and I gave it a shot. Sorry you didn't like it. Perhaps if I had put "intelligence" in quotation marks it might have made more sense? I mean that in our belief that we are "intelligent" we overlook how we have arrived at this level of "intelligence" and it wasn't by eating a vegetable diet. Our brains developed because of a diet rich in fish and meat. Now, if a tiny fraction of all humans do eat a strictly vegetarian diet then no harm done. If everyone tried it I wouldn't hold out much hope for our "intelligence". What is really going on? Move away from your supermarkets and health food stores and see for yourself. Its a fish eat fish world out there. Did you think I was attacking you? Sorry you feel that way. I have no quarrel with anyone about their diet. How could I? Mine is far from ideal.
I'm not a vegetarian either, but I'm not riled up because other people are vegetarians or vegans. No one is trying to make you eat artichokes here, or feel guilty about eating a chicken leg, dude, so why get so worked up about it? :-/
Riverflow, For each of my posts there are at least five replies from raging vegetarians. Who's the one getting worked up here?
Oh no the attack of the militant self righteous vegetarians. I've been warned about you guys. By the way just had a big juicy steak with mashed potatoes and gravy. Very delicious to say the least...
Militant? Couldn't be farther from the truth. As for your preferred meal, your karma not mine. I realize you must be having a hard time in your life for it to guide you here with the intention of getting a rise out of people (judging by almost all of your posts) but I know from experience it's not gonna help.
Trust me I didn't come here for anyone's approval. Certainly not yours. Go and eat your veggies and start showing a little compassion instead of threatening me of getting bad karma by eating meat.
The benefits of not eating meat far exceeds that of eating meat esp red meat. Ever heard of gout? a painful debilitating inflammation of joints. Heart disease, hypertension, cancer, the list is very long. The link between poor health and meat eating is clear. But dont let the folks at the meat industry hear you saying it.
@prettyhowtown I don't know that vegetarianism would fail to support the adrenals. But I've read that practitioners of kundalini, or "tummo" (Inner Fire) as it's called in Tibetan Buddhism, need to eat a lot of meat, because the practice is very tiring. A Western ex-monk who used to do the practice says it draws heavily on the adrenals.
I had adrenal fatigue for years, it was awful, and got worse because the med system in the US doesn't know how to deal with it. Where do you live, howtown? If you need an easy, effective remedy, PM me. I finally found the solution after i found a European doctor. Adrenal fatigue can kill you if left untreated. What does your doc say?
I have to admit I tried going vegetarian a few years back which was a huge failure. Every time I had a good sized salad, a veggie sub or whatever you could hear my stomach growl from at least a mile away after 1 hour or so, which in return made me feel real sluggish and weak throughout the day. It's like the more vegies I ate the more hungry I became.
I weight lift regularly, and I was trained in the culinary arts. So eating meat, and even cutting up meat myself is just something that I do without guilt.
I don't eat as much meat now as I used to before. But I do still eat it on almost a daily basis, mostly chicken, or eggs for protein, but some red meat or fish here and there. There are risks in everything. The sun can give you skin cancer. Several people died from eating canelope recently. I forgot what it was that killed them, but it was on the news for a while.
I don't buy that eating meat is less compassionate than being a vegetarian, because well. Stuff dies for all those salads. Bugs that don't want to die get pulled into the farming equipment. Hundreds/thousands of them. Many Mexicans break their backs, work long hours on small wages to pick those vegetables. Living a very hard life usually in poverty, just to try to make ends meet.
So while being a vegetarian may be just a bit healthier, I don't think meat will be bad in moderation. Nor will it really make more bad karma for you, compared to all those other variables that are exchanged for salad. If anything meat helps guys like me maintain my muscle mass. It's also damn good.
Life is too short to be worried about meat killing you. It won't in moderation. My grandfather lived to 86 and he ate meat everyday of his life, probably an all American/Mexican American diet. If I can manage to live to 70, that will be good enough for me.
Yes, moderation is ok. Study after study has shown the health of asians deteriorated after they adopted the 'western' diet. (although I think its not fair to blame westerners) I am sure europeans didnt eat like this 100 yrs ago. A better term would be 'heart-attack diet' menu of fast-food, snacks and coke/pepsi.
I don't buy that eating meat is less compassionate than being a vegetarian, because well. Stuff dies for all those salads. Bugs that don't want to die get pulled into the farming equipment. Hundreds/thousands of them. Many Mexicans break their backs, work long hours on small wages to pick those vegetables. Living a very hard life usually in poverty, just to try to make ends meet.
To create meat, the animals need to be fattened up, but the amount of food they eat is MANY times the amount needed if we just directly used the food to feed people instead.
I don't buy that eating meat is less compassionate than being a vegetarian, because well. Stuff dies for all those salads. Bugs that don't want to die get pulled into the farming equipment. Hundreds/thousands of them. Many Mexicans break their backs, work long hours on small wages to pick those vegetables. Living a very hard life usually in poverty, just to try to make ends meet.
To create meat, the animals need to be fattened up, but the amount of food they eat is MANY times the amount needed if we just directly used the food to feed people instead.
However you add it up, the industrial production of meat is never a compassionate option.
Namaste
Do you really think in the end there will be a judge with a ruler and a documentation for each of us that will think;
"This person ate a lot more salad and tried to be compassionate by not eating meat, so I think I will make them go to a higher level of heaven or I will grant them a higher body in the next life due to them not eating meat."
"This person here was also very compassionate, but since they ate meat a bit in their lives I think I will have to grant them a lower level."
It's sort of nonsensical to me. I like vegetarian food, but I never feel guilty about eating meat in moderation. Not at all. All the generations in my blood line before me were eating meat as it was presented to them, for convenience and for pleasure. So I don't worry about it. I just eat for health, and that does include occasional meat to keep my protein levels up to rebuild my muscles.
I have to admit I tried going vegetarian a few years back which was a huge failure. Every time I had a good sized salad, a veggie sub or whatever you could hear my stomach growl from at least a mile away after 1 hour or so, which in return made me feel real sluggish and weak throughout the day. It's like the more vegies I ate the more hungry I became.
Paul, anyone would starve on just veggies. If you'd added beans, rice, starches like potato and corn, whole grain bread, seeds and nuts, you would've felt really full after every meal. Your style of vegetarianism sounds somewhat similar to what the Dalai Lama tried. It didn't work out for him, either. Vegetarianism is best approached as a science, in order to make sure you're getting all the nutrients you need.
Do you really think in the end there will be a judge with a ruler and a documentation for each of us that will think ...
Of course not, and I never suggested such a silly idea. This is not about some after-life reward; it's about respect for other living, feeling creatures here and now.
I don't eat as much meat now as I used to before. But I do still eat it on almost a daily basis, mostly chicken, or eggs for protein, but some red meat or fish here and there. There are risks in everything. The sun can give you skin cancer. Several people died from eating canelope recently. I forgot what it was that killed them, but it was on the news for a while.
Many animals are raised simply to be slaughtered, and endure relentless torture throughout the duration of their short lives. This is akin to being born into slavery, in my eyes. No real difference, and I won't support it if there's some other way. (Meaning I would only eat meat, and eat modest amounts of organically raised meat, if my health is in jeopardy without it.)
Yes, moderation is ok. Study after study has shown the health of asians deteriorated after they adopted the 'western' diet. (although I think its not fair to blame westerners) I am sure europeans didnt eat like this 100 yrs ago. A better term would be 'heart-attack diet' menu of fast-food, snacks and coke/pepsi.
I agree. I think that one can include moderate amounts of meat in a diet that is centered on fruits and veggies, and still be quite healthy. Fruits and veggies are foundational, whatever your eating style.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
edited October 2011
I have to admit I tried going vegetarian a few years back which was a huge failure. Every time I had a good sized salad, a veggie sub or whatever you could hear my stomach growl from at least a mile away after 1 hour or so, which in return made me feel real sluggish and weak throughout the day. It's like the more veggies I ate the more hungry I became.
i guess it's a matter of personal preference. eating frequent small meals throughout the day is actually healthier for you and will help you to lose weight. i personally hate the sluggish heavy feeling i get after eating a meat entree, but i don't seem to get that with a veggie entree unless it contains large amounts of dairy. and on a side note, i hate salads, lol.
on another note (not aimed at paul or any other omnivores in specific), i just wonder what the point is of abstaining from killing sentient beings if you support an industry that kills sentient beings. i mean, i won't even shop at walmart because of their bad business/employee practices... isn't this the same thing? to think that your hands are somehow clean because you're not the one holding the butcher's knife seems silly to me. in all honesty, i know it doesn't accord with buddhism, but i've always thought that i had more respect for people who DID kill their own food because i think that it has a sort of humbling effect(for most). it's so easy to eat a chicken nugget and feel disconnected with the life that was lost to make it... it's not so easy when you go hunting and kill a deer, take it home, drain it, skin it, etc. i always thought that some of the native americans' philosophies on revering and respecting an animal that is to be butchered is much more humane than america's current situation. how can it be that it's okay for "that guy over there" to kill the animal, but not you, yourself?
@Paul - the thing with a vegetarian diet is that, unless you eat a LOT of dairy, it's a lot lighter than a meat-based one. It does take a little time to get used to not feeling 'full' after every meal. Frequent meals and snacking is the way to go until your body adjusts. Also, as @Dakini says, incorporating vegetarian protein such as nuts and pulses is essential.
Some of your hungry feelings may have been psychological, too. If you FELT that you were missing out by not eating meat, then your body might well have responded to those feelings.
My feeling is that going vegetarian is less a conscious choice than it is a step on the spiritual path. Some people are no more ready to go veggie than another person might be ready to become enlightened. It has to make sense internally and for its own sake, and in my experience no number of lectures on compassion, land usage or the environment will force a person to be ready for that step before they actually are.
Our brains developed because of a diet rich in fish and meat. Now, if a tiny fraction of all humans do eat a strictly vegetarian diet then no harm done. If everyone tried it I wouldn't hold out much hope for our "intelligence".
You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You think if people don't eat meat we'll lose what we've already gained? Wow. Eating meat caused a genetic mutation, it's not like it's some substance that gives you super powers only as long as you use it.
And Paul... "Go and eat your veggies and start showing a little compassion instead of threatening me of getting bad karma by eating meat."
Rofl. You enjoy coming to Buddhist sites for the purpose of trolling? You obviously don't know much about it and just enjoy getting a rise out of people... The thing about karma, you specifically have karma for every thing you do, including choosing your meal. I have karma for the exact same reasons. That's why I said your karma, not mine.
@prettyhowtown I don't know that vegetarianism would fail to support the adrenals. But I've read that practitioners of kundalini, or "tummo" (Inner Fire) as it's called in Tibetan Buddhism, need to eat a lot of meat, because the practice is very tiring. A Western ex-monk who used to do the practice says it draws heavily on the adrenals.
I had adrenal fatigue for years, it was awful, and got worse because the med system in the US doesn't know how to deal with it. Where do you live, howtown? If you need an easy, effective remedy, PM me. I finally found the solution after i found a European doctor. Adrenal fatigue can kill you if left untreated. What does your doc say?
I have to get some test results back. The doc was checking blood levels of certain nutrients, blood count, thyroid, etc.
You could always trying eating a small amount of organic/free range meat for a couple of weeks and see if your health improves.
I was a vegetarian for years, but went back to meat eating. I've noticed that when I'm stressed, I naturally crave meat, and eating it helps me feel strong, both physically and mentally. Of course, everyone is different, but you could try eating meat when you're stressed and see if it works.
Paul, anyone would starve on just veggies. If you'd added beans, rice, starches like potato and corn, whole grain bread, seeds and nuts, you would've felt really full after every meal. Your style of vegetarianism sounds somewhat similar to what the Dalai Lama tried. It didn't work out for him, either. Vegetarianism is best approached as a science, in order to make sure you're getting all the nutrients you need.
Yes, Paul's diet sounds awful! It would give me IBS! Just as an example, yesterday I had chickpea and sweet potato dahl (curry), with naan bread. Tonight I am having Quorn 'chicken' bites (Quorn = mycoprotein), with a pre-prepared vegetable rice mix (butternut squash and red pepper with brown rice) and some green beans. Maybe a little boring, but its mid-week. Tomorrow, I'm having vegetarian sausage casserole with mashed potato. On Sunday I'm having pesto pasta with olives, bread balls with garlic dip and a side-salad. And on Monday I'll probably have home-made pizza with some ciabatta bread and balsamic vinegar dip.
I don't feel hungry, ever, despite the fact that I'm actually on a diet. I cannot really see why I would need meat? Admittedly, if the Quorn factory got bombed, I'd be unhappy (I'm not sure if you get Quorn outside UK? Pity if not), but I never have a problem having filling meals.
You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You think if people don't eat meat we'll lose what we've already gained? Wow. Eating meat caused a genetic mutation, it's not like it's some substance that gives you super powers only as long as you use it.
No, you have no idea what I am talking about so I'll try one more time. However, if you continue with your childish tone I"m giving you a time out, young man, and will not be talking to you any more. Understand? I believe that a human body and brain have required certain causes and conditions to develop to its present state. If those conditions were to change for any reason for a prolonged period, then as natural selection would continue its work and humans will continue to change, the result could as easily be a smaller brain as a larger one. (see "Time Machine" by H.G. Wells). Being that the effort to maintain a balanced vegetarian diet demands knowledge and discipline,I'm saying that most people will fail if they were to attempt it, and their health will suffer. If they impose it on their children, their children's health will suffer. If you live in a city you can see it happening with junk food. Obese, unhealthy people breeding more of the same. You don't think it will affect the gene pool? Whatever, have fun arguing with folks.
Comments
some of the arrogance and ridicule coming from the "meat eating Buddhists" here blows my mind... i've only been a Buddhist for nine months now but during that time i've discovered that the Buddha was vegetarian/vegan... how can any Buddhist eat meat when one of our goals should be to end all suffering? animals are sentient beings with their own distinct level of consciousness...
Kensho
One of the things she says that I found interesting (and hard to understand) is this: not eating meat is a more compassionate thing to do, but it has clearly nothing to do with becoming enlightened, as many enlightened beings ate meat.
Food for thought. (no pun intended)
If I point that I have had friends whose vegetarian diets have contributed to health problems, I am condemned for attacking vegetarians. I'm happy to also admit that I have quite a few friends, and I even include myself, who have health issues due to a meat-eating diet. In fact, I've never personally seen a person who eats meat say that eating meat is a panacea to good health.
I've also never heard a meat eater tell a vegetarian, "You're going to go to hell for your eating habits", but I sure as heck have heard vegetarians say to meat eaters that, or similar claims of being "evil" or "you won't reach enlightenment" or "you are accumulating bad karma".
I belong to a group of senior-ish people who play Bunko once a month, and we rotate through the 12 participants' homes through the year. We have a vegetarian in our group. So that month we all know that the rest of us are going to have to eat a vegetarian lunch, and so we have a choice to do so, or not eat, or bring a sandwich. For us non-vegetarians she provides a pasta salad for us to enjoy. Of course, that isn't quite as kind as it may seem, because several group have diabetes and are not supposed to eat pasta, or the deserts she includes -- cakes and cookies. But we all cope. And when she comes to our houses, none of us builds our menu around her. She just brings a salad in a plastic container.
11 of us think it's an odd diet. But we're not condemning her. It's her choice to be a vegetarian. And I respect that choice.
Prettyhowtown, it seems as though you're aware of the health needs of your diet, so my guess is that your observation about stress could be a factor. Do you unwind?
1. Where did I say compassion is a false attachment? If you're saying compassion and vegetarianism are connected then that would be a false view.
If something directly causes something else, how can they not be connected?
Vegetarianism is often a result of compassion, in these times, they are intrinsically connected as one is the direct cause of the other.
2. Then by your reasoning avoiding eating vegetables would also be compassionate since pesticides are used to kill many sentient beings in order to grow them.
Yes it would be, but not eating vegetable is simply unreasonable because you would die.
3. According to some of the most respected historians, Hitler was indeed a vegetarian.
Hitler was also a schizophrenic sociopath. What Hitler was or wasn't is pretty much irrelevant.
4. Peta doesn't count as an organization.
Perhaps you could argue that. However, the American Dietetic Association is and they hold the same view and they are the single largest body of nutritional professionals in the world.
I do unwind, yes. I went through a period in my previous job that, even at home, I felt absolutely drained of all energy and joy because of my stress levels. Paradoxically, I slept very poorly, having difficulty falling asleep and staying asleep, and waking up at least one hour before I needed. I didn't really have time to address my stress in a meaningful way, being that I worked 9 hours a day, five days a week at a day care (constantly bombarded by germs, too). Truly I think the 40 hour work week is unreasonable, especially when one works in a place in which it's very difficult to get time off and the environment is fast-paced and stressful.
Meditation has certainly helped with stress levels. Since quitting my job (my husband works full-time so it wasn't really a threat to my well-being not to work) I have spent a lot more time attending to my own needs, and sleeping and resting more, attending to hobbies, and just enjoying myself. Maybe I just need to be patient.
i never expect people to go out of their way for me, and i sort of hate it when they do. this is part of the reason that i've started eating meat in a group situation. i don't like to be the one that complicates everything. i hate when i show up for dinner somewhere and the host is mortified that no one informed them i was a vegetarian... and i also hate having to be like, "oh, by the way, i'm a vegetarian... i know that all of your specialties involve meat, but all i ask is that you go out of your way to make something special for me." lolz. some people are happy to do it, but some people just look at you and go, "great... what can i possibly feed you?"
hehe.
If those were the prerequisites to be able to legally kill something, then what about all the humans that can't speak? Or are brain dead? Or just born with such severe disabilities?
Then you might argue that as a human they had the potential to do those things. Well, every animal has the potential to evolve and be every bit as intelligent as us.
lifes short. eat what you want then know what is going to kill you.
not suggesting this but i've come to this conclusion.
every other year i switch diets to spice things up.
Meditation, nuturing activities (baths, massage, art), rest, eating well. Another thing that comes to mind, is if you feel a sense of mental blergyness (medical term
With warmth,
Matt
And what in the hell could you possibly mean by your last sentence? You think that since something happens in nature we might as well not try to improve and just do whatever everyone else is doing? Intelligence get's in the way of seeing what's really going on... Now that's a claim. Without intelligence you wouldn't have a concept of comparing and would never think about the past relative to the present and future... How are we going to understand more about "whats really going on" without intelligence? By the way, I'd really love to hear your opinion of what really is "going on" if you don't mind.
I'm not a vegetarian either, but I'm not riled up because other people are vegetarians or vegans. No one is trying to make you eat artichokes here, or feel guilty about eating a chicken leg, dude, so why get so worked up about it?
:-/
Riverflow, For each of my posts there are at least five replies from raging vegetarians. Who's the one getting worked up here?
of eating meat esp red meat.
Ever heard of gout? a painful debilitating inflammation
of joints. Heart disease, hypertension, cancer, the list
is very long.
The link between poor health and meat eating is clear.
But dont let the folks at the meat industry hear you
saying it.
I had adrenal fatigue for years, it was awful, and got worse because the med system in the US doesn't know how to deal with it. Where do you live, howtown? If you need an easy, effective remedy, PM me. I finally found the solution after i found a European doctor. Adrenal fatigue can kill you if left untreated. What does your doc say?
I don't eat as much meat now as I used to before. But I do still eat it on almost a daily basis, mostly chicken, or eggs for protein, but some red meat or fish here and there. There are risks in everything. The sun can give you skin cancer. Several people died from eating canelope recently. I forgot what it was that killed them, but it was on the news for a while.
I don't buy that eating meat is less compassionate than being a vegetarian, because well. Stuff dies for all those salads. Bugs that don't want to die get pulled into the farming equipment. Hundreds/thousands of them. Many Mexicans break their backs, work long hours on small wages to pick those vegetables. Living a very hard life usually in poverty, just to try to make ends meet.
So while being a vegetarian may be just a bit healthier, I don't think meat will be bad in moderation. Nor will it really make more bad karma for you, compared to all those other variables that are exchanged for salad. If anything meat helps guys like me maintain my muscle mass. It's also damn good.
Life is too short to be worried about meat killing you. It won't in moderation. My grandfather lived to 86 and he ate meat everyday of his life, probably an all American/Mexican American diet. If I can manage to live to 70, that will be good enough for me.
Study after study has shown the health of asians
deteriorated after they adopted the 'western'
diet. (although I think its not fair to blame
westerners)
I am sure europeans didnt eat like this
100 yrs ago.
A better term would be 'heart-attack diet' menu of
fast-food, snacks and coke/pepsi.
Raising vegetables = plants + bugs + mexicans suffer
Raising meat = MORE plants + bugs + mexicans suffer ... + animals killed
However you add it up, the industrial production of meat is never a compassionate option.
Namaste
"This person ate a lot more salad and tried to be compassionate by not eating meat, so I think I will make them go to a higher level of heaven or I will grant them a higher body in the next life due to them not eating meat."
"This person here was also very compassionate, but since they ate meat a bit in their lives I think I will have to grant them a lower level."
It's sort of nonsensical to me. I like vegetarian food, but I never feel guilty about eating meat in moderation. Not at all. All the generations in my blood line before me were eating meat as it was presented to them, for convenience and for pleasure. So I don't worry about it. I just eat for health, and that does include occasional meat to keep my protein levels up to rebuild my muscles.
on another note (not aimed at paul or any other omnivores in specific), i just wonder what the point is of abstaining from killing sentient beings if you support an industry that kills sentient beings. i mean, i won't even shop at walmart because of their bad business/employee practices... isn't this the same thing? to think that your hands are somehow clean because you're not the one holding the butcher's knife seems silly to me. in all honesty, i know it doesn't accord with buddhism, but i've always thought that i had more respect for people who DID kill their own food because i think that it has a sort of humbling effect(for most). it's so easy to eat a chicken nugget and feel disconnected with the life that was lost to make it... it's not so easy when you go hunting and kill a deer, take it home, drain it, skin it, etc. i always thought that some of the native americans' philosophies on revering and respecting an animal that is to be butchered is much more humane than america's current situation. how can it be that it's okay for "that guy over there" to kill the animal, but not you, yourself?
Some of your hungry feelings may have been psychological, too. If you FELT that you were missing out by not eating meat, then your body might well have responded to those feelings.
My feeling is that going vegetarian is less a conscious choice than it is a step on the spiritual path. Some people are no more ready to go veggie than another person might be ready to become enlightened. It has to make sense internally and for its own sake, and in my experience no number of lectures on compassion, land usage or the environment will force a person to be ready for that step before they actually are.
And Paul... "Go and eat your veggies and start showing a little compassion instead of threatening me of getting bad karma by eating meat."
Rofl. You enjoy coming to Buddhist sites for the purpose of trolling? You obviously don't know much about it and just enjoy getting a rise out of people... The thing about karma, you specifically have karma for every thing you do, including choosing your meal. I have karma for the exact same reasons. That's why I said your karma, not mine.
You could always trying eating a small amount of organic/free range meat for a couple of weeks and see if your health improves.
I was a vegetarian for years, but went back to meat eating. I've noticed that when I'm stressed, I naturally crave meat, and eating it helps me feel strong, both physically and mentally. Of course, everyone is different, but you could try eating meat when you're stressed and see if it works.
I don't feel hungry, ever, despite the fact that I'm actually on a diet. I cannot really see why I would need meat? Admittedly, if the Quorn factory got bombed, I'd be unhappy (I'm not sure if you get Quorn outside UK? Pity if not), but I never have a problem having filling meals.