Pot

According to Buddhist precepts, intoxicants are restricted.
Why is that?
I'm not a pot smoker, but I know some who are, and they claim it is OK in moderation and doesn't haven't any negative effects.
So I guess I'm wondering if the 'no intoxicants' rule applies equally to all drugs or if there are exceptions.

According to Buddhist precepts, intoxicants are restricted.
Why is that?
I'm not a pot smoker, but I know some who are, and they claim it is OK in moderation and doesn't haven't any negative effects.
So I guess I'm wondering if the 'no intoxicants' rule applies equally to all drugs or if there are exceptions.

The only exceptions are drugs which are purposely prescribed by a qualified doctor, which are taken for the better mental health of certain deserving individuals.

Nothing is forbidden or restricted.
But the advice is to abstain....

I have smoked pot on occasion and I do find that it affects my mind. Would you take a final exam high? If the answer is yes than I suppose it is meant to be for you. :nyah:

swaydam said:

According to Buddhist precepts, intoxicants are restricted.
Why is that?
I'm not a pot smoker, but I know some who are, and they claim it is OK in moderation and doesn't haven't any negative effects.
So I guess I'm wondering if the 'no intoxicants' rule applies equally to all drugs or if there are exceptions.

The fifth precept clearly discourages the use of drugs and alcohol for the sole purpose of intoxication because it leads to carelessness, making it easier for one to break the other four precepts, and can interfere with the development of mindfulness and insight.

That said, it should be made clear that Buddhist precepts aren't equivalent to commandments in that they're training rules which are voluntarily undertaken rather than edicts or commands dictated by a higher power and/or authority. The precepts are mainly undertaken to protect ourselves, as well as others, from the results of unwholesome actions, and to make the practice more fruitful.

Thanks for the answers. I'm a little confused, but I can see there isn't a cut and dry answer.

We practice to have a clear mind so that we can see reality clearly.

Taking intoxicants are counter productive, especially in the beginning.

Jeffrey said:

I have smoked pot on occasion and I do find that it affects my mind. Would you take a final exam high? If the answer is yes than I suppose it is meant to be for you. :nyah:

I know someone who did that... And he got a higher grade then me...

Without sounding arrogant, you and your friends are shrouded with ignorance. Like many of us, but just at different levels of ignorance. I use to smoke a lot of weed and other drugs, not anymore.

Firstly, smoking anything is obviously bad for your health. Do they think that letting large volumes of burning material into their lungs often is not going to have any health implications?

Secondly it will change your state of mind, it will alter your perception. In buddhism it is important to keep a clean, clear mind as that is the best tool for reaching liberation and mindfulness.

I was stonned in about 30-40% of my final highschool exams. I got mainly Bs and Cs, I under-scored on my predicted grades.

Thirdly, weed makes you one lazy assed stoner.

Taiyaki really hit this one on the head. Intoxicants by nature alter your perception and prevent you from really seeing things as they are. The real question is, what is so bad about reality as it is that you need to alter it? And is there a better way to address whatever it if you're running away from.

Smoking pot also interferes with meditation.

I don't think smoking pot is necessarily that harmful for everyone, but anything more than very occasional use is very much counterproductive to Buddhist practice.

if you were to eat it in a cake every now and then, that would be highly healthier than smoking it. But yes, still counter productive. What is wrong with reality as it is? Well that is pretty obvious, a lot of people are depressed and suffer and do not know how to medicate themselves so use drugs. Be it a smal issue like being bored, or something like you have had a very bad upbringing which has left huge emotional scars.

I was actually trying to argue against pot to my friend...but he said his thinking is clearer when he is high on that stuff... and then brought up all this stuff about how there is no evidence that its actually bad for your health.

But I have another friend who says that all the great masters agree that intoxicants should be abstained from.

I am more inclined to trust someone who has totally crossed the shore of ignorance than however many scientists who are still shrouded in ignorance... because science evolves slowly and new things are being discovered all the time.

The thing is, intoxicants alter consciousness. Even if there is no scientifically discovered negative effects for certain intoxicants, its still messing with the mind and there may be subtle (or not so subtle) consequences that are not easily measurable.

But to argue against the reality distorting aspect.......it could be said that the unenlightened mind is already distorting reality and that intoxicants can in some ways grant access to reality, temporarily impeding the ordinary unenlightened mind-set.

So I don't know.......I'm confused.... I tend to over think things too much.
The safest thing though is to just avoid it if there is no need for it.

The point in this specific dicsussion I believe is not that is weed bad for your health, but is it a hindrance to ones liberation of suffering. The answer to that question is simple and was very clear to the buddha. Your friend may think his thinking is more clear when he/she has been smoking weed, but maybe that is because when they are not smoking weed, they feel that they want to smoke weed, I don't know. It is not physically addictive, but it is mentally addictive, a depencey drug. If you have to rely on something external to bring happiness, then you are not truly happy, you are masking or covering up an issue. True happiness and liberation comes from within.

I can sit here and say all of this, but I take valium daily, so I am far from the wise man. I undestand, but cannot put everything fully into practice. At least I do not take ecstasy, LSD and the other things on that large list anymore.

Man who stand on toilet,
is high on pot.

ThailandTom said:

The point in this specific dicsussion I believe is not that is weed bad for your health, but is it a hindrance to ones liberation of suffering. The answer to that question is simple and was very clear to the buddha. Your friend may think his thinking is more clear when he/she has been smoking weed, but maybe that is because when they are not smoking weed, they feel that they want to smoke weed, I don't know. It is not physically addictive, but it is mentally addictive, a depencey drug. If you have to rely on something external to bring happiness, then you are not truly happy, you are masking or covering up an issue. True happiness and liberation comes from within.

I like what you said there. Way true.

ThailandTom said:

I can sit here and say all of this, but I take valium daily, so I am far from the wise man. I undestand, but cannot put everything fully into practice. At least I do not take ecstasy, LSD and the other things on that large list anymore.

I'm a sugar addict myself. Some consider it a drug... I might agree. It's definitely a substance that can be abused and it's definitely addictive.. O.o

I believe that most drugs, when abused, can be very harmful for one on the path towards liberation. However, I feel that certain drugs when used sparingly can help illuminate the minds eye and improve a persons outlook and perspective. I have many friends who have used drugs like LSD and mushrooms almost as a spiritual practice to help them go within and discover things in reality that are sometimes hidden or obscured. Never becoming attached to them, never abusing them, simply using them for a specific purpose and letting go afterwards. I feel like the same can go with cannabis but it all depends on the person. Some are truly dependent on marijuana, and others indulge simply for a brief change in perspective. I have heard of certain Buddhist groups using alcohol for the same purpose. Balance is the key above all else. Only you truly know if a drug is detrimental to your spiritual evolution. Although, more often than not, drugs do not prove to be beneficial for one's advancement towards liberation.

lufool I don't think its 100% percent true that only you know if a drug is detrimental. It may be 50% though because I definitely think you have to trust yourself; who else is going to do things for you? The other 50% I wouldn't trust because an addict tends to be in delusion. Or at the very least that is a danger. The Beetle's song Strawberry Fields Forever is about the delusional view from Marijuana.

Granted I would say that LSD does not cause you to see things that are not there, but to see things that are there, but just in a different way. You can see vibes from people, experience things in this world that maybe you are not able to do normally. I once was sat looking at the leaves on a tree that were orange in colour, and I actualy could taste the colour without eating them obviously. And nom they did not taste like an orange. I also have seen sound, that was really strange. BUT, that is all fun and games and all, but to reach true realization and liberation, all you need is your mind and nothing external.

Jeffrey said:

lufool I don't think its 100% percent true that only you know if a drug is detrimental. It may be 50% though because I definitely think you have to trust yourself; who else is going to do things for you? The other 50% I wouldn't trust because an addict tends to be in delusion. Or at the very least that is a danger. The Beetle's song Strawberry Fields Forever is about the delusional view from Marijuana.

Yes 50% is actually more accurate. You have to trust yourself and be the final decision maker but people can indeed know what's better for you in certain situations.

ThailandTom said:

Granted I would say that LSD does not cause you to see things that are not there, but to see things that are there, but just in a different way. You can see vibes from people, experience things in this world that maybe you are not able to do normally. I once was sat looking at the leaves on a tree that were orange in colour, and I actualy could taste the colour without eating them obviously. And nom they did not taste like an orange. I also have seen sound, that was really strange. BUT, that is all fun and games and all, but to reach true realization and liberation, all you need is your mind and nothing external.

Exactly, everything needed for liberation is already inside you. But there are certainly things that can help aid you along. When on acid you experience how interconnected everything can be, and learners in the early stages of spirituality can grow a lot with experiences like that. This website, for instance, is an external tool used to help people with their understanding and discovery of their true reality. However, one may certainly abuse a very helpful tool such as this by depending on it and failing to go within themselves for the ultimate truth. The same can go for certain drugs.

Well the thing is, this site does not cause you to become intoxicated. Then again, does acid intoxicate you? Acid was not around in the buddha's day, but brews made by shamen were that did similar things. The 5th precept refers mainly to alcohol I guess, alcohol makes you do silly things and really does hinder your progress. It is kind of a greyscale when it comes to LSD, hmm. I don't know.

No it doesn't intoxicate you but it could definitely hinder your progress. I'm not sure if LSD is a true intoxicant. I know that alcohol has a for more intoxicating effect, but even then, alcohol is utilized by certain as I mentioned and a brew or two doesn't necessarily tarnish your ability to focus. as long as you dont depend on it. idk

All of the sunstances that are in the same family as LSD such as DMT, shrooms, shamen brews etc, they are all natural and pretty harmless if not abused, also they are not physically addictive. I had many realizations about my life whilst on LSD that created turning points, but like we have said, everything you need for liberation is already within you. Also, Hunter.S.Thompson wrote that 'you cannot buy enlightenment for 5 dollars in the form of a tab.'

I'm pretty sure that our old friend TheJourney used to do DMT. Or maybe it was DXM... I forget.

swaydam said:

I was actually trying to argue against pot to my friend...but he said his thinking is clearer when he is high on that stuff...

I said that too.

By all means, smoke up if you want. Or, don't. Find for yourself where you are clear minded. The precepts aren't commandments, they are a guide. From personal experience, I don't see how I would have a clear mind and focus using weed. But, then again, the lethargy that I used pot to prolong helped me hit a bottom that prompted change.

swaydam said:

...he said his thinking is clearer when he is high on that stuff

Which in itself is not clear thinking, and is unskillful thought and spoken word (assuming he's Buddhist). Justifying something to yourself is not the same thing as it being skillful or not contrary to the precepts.

And I hate to sound like a potential broken record to your friend, but there is plenty of good medical research that indicates that ingesting a lot of THC *is* bad for your health. Just because he doesn't want to believe it doesn't mean it's not true. Like many things, the effects of small amounts, taken occasionally are much less pronounced. I'm not advocating for or against, but I *am* saying that a lot of it is bad, and that's established medical fact.

Pot is nice once in a while.

Mountains said:

swaydam said:

...he said his thinking is clearer when he is high on that stuff

Which in itself is not clear thinking, and is unskillful thought and spoken word (assuming he's Buddhist). Justifying something to yourself is not the same thing as it being skillful or not contrary to the precepts.

And I hate to sound like a potential broken record to your friend, but there is plenty of good medical research that indicates that ingesting a lot of THC *is* bad for your health. Just because he doesn't want to believe it doesn't mean it's not true. Like many things, the effects of small amounts, taken occasionally are much less pronounced. I'm not advocating for or against, but I *am* saying that a lot of it is bad, and that's established medical fact.

Whatever, I pretty much agree with you. I wouldn't be too quick to call my friends decisions rationalizations though. But could be.

Every now and then, you get these threads that are not always started by people trying to make pot or substances just in buddhist practice, along with people posting comments going along with it. They seem to happen every month, just like the menstrual cycle.

You can do, smoke, snort, inject and put up your but hole whatever you like, it is up to you. But if you are a buddhist you should really think about what you are doing and how it will effect your state of mind and life in general. The precept is there for a reason.

BeachHouseGuy said:

Pot is nice once in a while.

I've never had it, and all the time is nice. not just 'once in a while'.

swaydam said:

I wouldn't be too quick to call my friends decisions rationalizations though. But could be.

Arguing that "there is no evidence" is a fallacy, and it's a rationalization for simply wanting to use it. It's not accurate, because as I said, there *is* ample, good, sound evidence that it *is* bad for you in some amounts. Like I said, I'm not advocating for or against, I'm just saying that making that argument is factually inaccurate and is, in the context you presented, an argument for wanting to use it.

PS: I've used it, and I've enjoyed it. I don't do it anymore, but I will admit there are still rare occasions when I think I'd really like some.

swaydam said:

According to Buddhist precepts, intoxicants are restricted.
Why is that?
I'm not a pot smoker, but I know some who are, and they claim it is OK in moderation and doesn't haven't any negative effects.
So I guess I'm wondering if the 'no intoxicants' rule applies equally to all drugs or if there are exceptions.

The problem with a deluded person coming to the conclusion that there are no negative effects, is the fact that their mind is in delusion while they are making that conclusion. A deluded mind coming to conclusions often comes to the wrong conclusions. And everyone who has yet to get enlightenment is deluded. One of the negative effects is that it prevents your mind from entering a "wholesome state". However, if a persons mind has never been is this "wholesome state", they can easily come to the conclusion that what they do has no negative effects, because they don't even know that this other state of mind exists to begin with and are simply not aware of the fact that what they are doing is one thing that is preventing them from discovering this other wholesome state. So in essence, just because a person can not see or identify any negative effects, does not necessarily mean there aren't any. :) Does that make sense? :) It does apply equally to recreational drugs.

Uh huh.

I remember Eckhart Tolle said that he took LSD and that it resembled the place he arrived at naturally, but that it felt very unnatural, even violent. I think a highly sensitive person can detect the subtle ill effects of drugs that others often don't.

I bet the first Jhana is a more pleasant than any drug.

I bet the first Jhana is a more pleasant than any drug

Have you ever tried ecstasy? I have never really reached any jhana so I cannot compare, but ecstasy is named ecstasy for a reason. However, it is a false type of ecstasy. Still, it is a feeling like no other I can tell you that.

I had a friend who used to take ecstasy. she says the come-downs were horrendous.....

That is where I was different, probably one reason why I abused it so much and took up to 10-14 pills on a night. I use to see the 'come down' as a second high. My mind was like that of a 5 year old for a day or two. So everything was simple and I just lazed around. Whereas most of my friends would have aching jaws, depression and fatigue, I was in lala land.

Also if you take valium or ketamine on a come down it helps a lot, that is what a lot of people were doing when I was in that scene.

ThailandTom said:

I bet the first Jhana is a more pleasant than any drug

Have you ever tried ecstasy? I have never really reached any jhana so I cannot compare, but ecstasy is named ecstasy for a reason. However, it is a false type of ecstasy. Still, it is a feeling like no other I can tell you that.

No.
The only pleasant experience I've had with mind altering substances was when I was in Peru. I had a dream one night in a cheap hotel that I smoked something with a group of friends I've never met before. I was in ecstacy and feeling new emotions etc. It was probably the high-light of my trip.

The only drugs I've taken physically are pot and salvia divinorum. Both brought me, it seemed, to the brinks of insanity. I was a different person, hopping around and chanting etc convinced everything was an illusion. lol.
It sounds funny, but acting crazy was a way of flowing with the traumatizing effects the drugs were having on me.
Most people probably aren't as sensitive as I am.

This past spring I was waiting in a coffee shop; my friend was dying of cancer, and I was very sad, spacing out at a picture of the Buddha on the cafe wall. A man's voice said, "Are you interested in Buddhism?"

It turned out to be author Aaron Mishara, who was working on this:

Mishara A.L., Schwartz, M. (2011). Altered states of consciousness as paradoxically healing: An embodied social neuroscience perspective. In: Cardeña E., Winkelman M. (Eds). Altering Conciousness: A Multidisciplinary Perspective. New York: Plenum Press.

I'm ashamed to say I haven't read it yet, but I'm sure it will be good!

I supposed the Buddhist approach would be to achieve the altered states without a chemical crutch...i.e. through various meditative states, including bliss, etc. But I'll be interested to see whether he touches on this - if not, maybe we can get him to consider that angle in a future writing.

That would be very interesting to read. I myself will make a point of getting that book, maybe santa will visit Thailand this year :)

@swaydam, salvia is legal and it is one insane drug yes. It only lasts up to 20 minutes, but it really messed with your mind. I don't like it, it is pleasant. From my experience, all of the legal highs are bad, probably because it would put people off of using illegal drugs as the majority of the users of legal highs are too afraid to use illegal drugs.
If ganja messed with your mind, then you are for sure somebody who should not be toying with substances of that nature. There is a theory that it brings out under lying mental illnesses, so yea don't go there. But all drugs are different, I find it very ignorant when people who have barely ever taken a drug or none at all, and put them all into one group.

drugs create attachment -> suffering

furthermore they cloud the mind cause you to wander around in darkness -> suffering

it's just not a wise thing to do :)

Jeffrey said:

I have smoked pot on occasion and I do find that it affects my mind. Would you take a final exam high? If the answer is yes than I suppose it is meant to be for you. :nyah:

Funnily enough I got near perfect scores on some tests when I took them while high. However that was the one and only time I showed up to school high. Not because of any adverse effect on my performance or any moral objections.

It just seemed like a waste of quality herb.

In my year group at school (in our final 2 years so ages 14-16), I would say around 25-30% of them smoked weed on a regular basis. My mother was and is a teacher at my school, and I was so niave and foolish (I still am to a lesser extent), that I would take my bong to school with me in my bag. Me and a few people would go and smoke bongs at lunch quite often and then go back to lessons red eyed and a grin from ear to ear. I remember someone I knew falling asleep in an IT lesson over his computer lol.

Our school got some very bad press one day when a kid in the year above me decided to take 10 and a half ecstasy pills in one go in an IT lesson. After 20 minutes he got up, jumped over the railing of the stairs and went outside. A little later at lunch his friends saw him sat on the bench 'coming up'. His jaw was nearly on the floor and his eyes were huge. He then walked off towards the playing field that leads down to a cycle path where he started foaming at the mouth and was taken to hospital. He was in a coma for a few days and his parents got told he was excluded from that school whilst he was in a coma...

In my opinion you cannot be mindful while smoking pot. Mindfulness pertains to living in the moment and being aware of your life right now. Reality. Pot and most other drugs will skew your view of reality as it is, thus you cannot be mindful. Ultimately it is your choice but my thoughts on the matter is that is will not let your mind achieve mindfulness of reality.

You'd think that but let's be honest, it does not always make you into a grinning, chuckling moron with the munchies. Before when I was having some problems in astrophysics I stopped and took a page out of Carl Sagan's book. I went and smoked some weed, sat down, and lost myself in thought. I pondered and pondered and finally came to the realization that I was approaching the problem from a fundamentally wrong point of view, and it felt as if a key had turned in my mind. Suddenly I had this way to look at the issue in a way I never would have conceived of. I then spent the rest of my high stargazing lost in thought or meditating.

Bottom line, yes weed can skew your perception of reality. But whoever said that was an entirely bad thing in the long run? And who is to say what reality really is?

swaydam said:

According to Buddhist precepts, intoxicants are restricted.
Why is that?
I'm not a pot smoker, but I know some who are, and they claim it is OK in moderation and doesn't haven't any negative effects.
So I guess I'm wondering if the 'no intoxicants' rule applies equally to all drugs or if there are exceptions.

I think Buddhism goes beyond the opinion that "it doesn't have any negative effects" and enters the realm of disciplined ethics on this matter.

I was instructed that indulging in intoxicants dull the mind and lead to carelessness.

Buddha has been quoted that intoxicants make "negligent fools commit evil deeds"

The 5th precept is part of a a fuller eightfold path, which has been metaphorically compared to a modern bridge, each factor like a wire in a full cable that holds the bridge up.

I suggest researching why the 5th precept is part of the eightfold path and/or what other sanghas teach about abstaining from intoxicants in their tradition.

Zayl said:

You'd think that but let's be honest, it does not always make you into a grinning, chuckling moron with the munchies. Before when I was having some problems in astrophysics I stopped and took a page out of Carl Sagan's book. I went and smoked some weed, sat down, and lost myself in thought. I pondered and pondered and finally came to the realization that I was approaching the problem from a fundamentally wrong point of view, and it felt as if a key had turned in my mind. Suddenly I had this way to look at the issue in a way I never would have conceived of. I then spent the rest of my high stargazing lost in thought or meditating.

Bottom line, yes weed can skew your perception of reality. But whoever said that was an entirely bad thing in the long run? And who is to say what reality really is?

Any excuse will do! Try Rastifarianism Dude, your in the wrong house.

*Have first hand-experience
*Watching people discuss something they know not a thing about
*good laughs have been had

Hey you know, I guess since all of you are obviously much more educated on the subject than someone who has actually had multiple experiences with the substance in question. But I'm sure you all know what you're talking about, after all someone thousands of years ago may have said something about it, possibly. I guess there really is no need for my opinion here since I guess an experienced opinion is not nearly as valid as the rest of yours. Now hold on, I need to fix my car. I COULD take it to an experienced mechanic, but maybe it is better if I roll it off a cliff because in my mind, I am correct and that is my only line of thinking.

This question does come up once in a while. It really doesn't take much intelligence to look around and see the suffering and problems that intoxicants of all types bring. A Buddhist practice is about developing a clear mind, and bathing your brain in thought and mood altering chemicals only makes a difficult task even harder.

That said, Buddhism isn't a matter of a list of rules or commandments. For lay people, if you kick back with some friends and drink a beer and light one up, you are not committing a sin that Lord Buddha is going to punish you for. Bear in mind that karma always applies, though, and that means actions have consequences. The more effort you put into your Buddhist practice, including taking the precepts seriously, the more results you see.

Not THIS old chestnut again :eek2:

dhammachick said:

Not THIS old chestnut again :eek2:

lol

dhammachick said:

Not THIS old chestnut again :eek2:

You might find it interesting to know the expression "old chestnut" meaning an often repeated joke or phrase, is an example of a meme catching on before the internet, television, or even movies. It comes from back in 1816, from a now forgotten play by William Dimond called "The Broken Sword".

In the play, one character keeps repeating the same stories but with slight differences and is interrupted by another character who says, "Chestnut, you mean! I have heard you tell the joke twenty-seven times and I am sure it was a chestnut."

So what made a not-so-funny line from a now forgotten play become part of the English language? Who knows? In the future, people will probably wonder the same thing about cats wanting cheezeburgers.