Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@newbuddhist.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take up to 48 hours. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

The Turin Shroud could not have been faked, say scientists

edited December 2011 in General Banter
http://www.montrealgazette.com/mobile/story.html?id=5883796


"The double image (front and back) of a scourged and crucified man, barely visible on the linen cloth of the Shroud of Turin, has many physical and chemical characteristics that are so particular that the staining Ö is impossible to obtain in a laboratory," concluded experts from Italy's National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Development.

The scientists set out to "identify the physical and chemical processes capable of generating a colour similar to that of the image on the shroud". They concluded that the shade, texture and depth of the imprints on the cloth could be produced only with the aid of ultraviolet lasers producing extremely brief pulses of light.

They said the image of the bearded man must therefore have been created by "some form of electromagnetic energy (such as a flash of light at short wavelength)".

Although they stopped short of offering a non-scientific explanation for the phenomenon, their findings will be embraced by those who believe that the marks on the shroud were miraculously created at the moment of Christ's Resurrection.

"We are not at the conclusion. We are composing pieces of a fascinating and complex scientific puzzle," the team reported.

Comments

  • Makes sense because it's well known that resurrections cause flashes of light at short wave lengths :)
  • I'm not even sure it's worth pointing out what a fluff piece the article is. Maybe it can serve as an exercise in critical thinking and understanding how people defend their beliefs against any and all evidence.

    The shroud was shown to be a forgery many years ago using proven dating techniques and experts in ancient textiles, painting, and medieval history also agree it's nothing special and fully explain how it was made. Yet, true believers ignore all this and continue to seek ever wilder theories of how all the real experts must be wrong.

    When you see something like this, where the title "scientist" is used as if all professors and doctors and engineers are equally qualified to talk about anything, you can pretty much know it's worthless. What the heck does an engineer who plays with lasers know about the techniques a medieval artist has available or if this type of weaving was even used in ancient Israel?

    Just about every famous forgery of an ancient artifact has a list of "scientists" who swore it had to be genuine. The one thing they all have in common is, those scientists were not experts in the particular field needed to spot a forgery and should have known better. But scientist and ego often go together.
  • We've had threads on this topic before. I haven't read the OP article, but I live in NM where a number of the scientists who studied the shroud live and work, at Los Alamos National Laboratory. A team was organized, consisting of specialists in a variety of fields relevant to the project. One of them said in an interview in local newspapers that he wanted to have nothing to do with the project, but because he was a chemist (IIRC), he was drafted onto the team. He said that what he found in the end really shook him up. He wrote a book about it.

    Tests on the textile that other teams had done before and after the Los Alamos team's study tested parts of the cloth that were patches added later, and therefore not representative of the original cloth. It seems very strange that patches that were not original were chosen for the testing, but that's what reports say.

    So this is one very rare occasion in which I have to contradict Cinorjer. ;) Otherwise I'm a huge fan of his tell-it-like-it-is-ness.
  • Why does Jesus have to be supernatural? To me, his story is much better if he is a normal guy with an incredible gift. But, I have educated friends that will pull your head off if you suggest this idea. I guess that's what drew me to Buddhism...the fact that we can all be Buddha. Try telling a Christian that they can be Christ.
  • I agree, justshea. I'm certainly not into the divinity of Jesus at all, or any Turin shroud cult, or anything. But the fact that one of the scientists on the team said he wanted nothing to do with it, then came away from the project with his view of reality shaken caught my eye.
  • I agree with @justshea as well. I like the idea of a normal man preaching love and kindness better than the virign-birth-son-of-God-hocus-pocus part. Why must one be supernatural to be good? Buddha nature is in all of us.
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    "The results of radiocarbon measurements at Arizona, Oxford and Zurich yield a calibrated calendar age range with at least 95% confidence for the linen of the Shroud of Turin of AD 1260 - 1390 (rounded down/up to nearest 10 yr). These results therefore provide conclusive evidence that the linen of the Shroud of Turin is mediaeval"
    http://www.shroud.com/nature.htm
  • edited December 2011
    Personally, I favor the theory that Jesus survived the crucifixion and went east to escape further persecution. This, too, is an unproven, but I don't believe he was divine and arose from the dead, etc. The theme of a springtime sacrifice of a being believed to have divine attributes, followed by his arising in spirit form and going to heaven to watch over the tribe is found in cultures around the world, including among the Ainu of Japan and some Siberian tribes. It's mythology and pure faith in gods and spirits.

    However, I do find some of the shroud study results intriguing. Here are the results of the study Dakini refers to, by the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP), including chemist Raymond Rogers' report. The fact that another project was recently done that came to similar conclusions as the STURP team is also interesting, though an Italian team might be biased.

    http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/rogers2.pdf
    http://www.shroud.com/78conclu.htm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STURP

    edit: @swingisyellow Is that the full quote? Those results were found by the STURP team to have come from sections of the shroud that were later additions. See the first couple of pages of R.Rogers' doc.
  • I wonder if you all get tired of me pulling out Alan Watts clips, but I really like his take on Jesus... this is just part 3 of 6, so I am sparing you, but the whole series is interesting if you care to look up the rest of it



  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited December 2011
    Hey, I'm always open to being proven wrong. However, the attempt to discredit the carbon dating follows two accusations, first that a fire in the 16th century somehow altered the results of modern tests (the scientists who actually work with carbon dating will tell you this is impossible) and that somehow, the scientists picked the obvious newer patches to test, in spite of well documented and photographed proof that the scientists, who were not idiots, actually made sure to take samples of the original cloth. What evidence does this chemist who wrote a book claiming this have to support the threory that some moron scientists picked an obvious sewed on patch to test? None. Only accusations that this is what he was told and a couple of threads that only he has tested.

    But of more interest to me is the fascinating history of people refusing to give up a belief in the face of not only scientific evidence, but common sense. Take crop circles, or Big Foot, or Nessie, or any one of dozens of beliefs that people have. We can maybe say the odds are overwhelmingly against aliens doodling in fields of corn, or a population of hairy cavemen hide in the trees of the NorthWest, but there is a tiny chance it's possible. But some people insist against all reason that aliens must be drawing circles in the dirt, and a plaster cast "proves" Big Foot exists. It is a fascinating ability of the human mind to filter the world around us to fit our preconceived beliefs.

  • hmm. I don't know what to make of these conflicting reports, then, Cinorjer. It seems like the Los Alamos team didn't have a religious agenda (Los Alamos National Lab, home of the atom bomb), so I guess we'll have to wait.

    RE; Big Foot, etc.--the guy who produced a cast of a footprint, and also film footage of Big Foot later 'fessed up that he'd faked those. I read in an article back in the 90's that some artists in England confessed they'd come up with the idea of crop circles as a new art form, and Nessie, didn't she turn out to be a giant sturgeon? They can get huge if they live to an old enough age.
  • I love the idea of Nessie, Big Foot, Oogoopogo, Yeti, etc. I like the idea that there are more creatures out there. :) sometimes science is such a downer lol
  • hmm. I don't know what to make of these conflicting reports, then, Cinorjer. It seems like the Los Alamos team didn't have a religious agenda (Los Alamos National Lab, home of the atom bomb), so I guess we'll have to wait.

    RE; Big Foot, etc.--the guy who produced a cast of a footprint, and also film footage of Big Foot later 'fessed up that he'd faked those. I read in an article back in the 90's that some artists in England confessed they'd come up with the idea of crop circles as a new art form, and Nessie, didn't she turn out to be a giant sturgeon? They can get huge if they live to an old enough age.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited December 2011
    Not only did they confess to creating most of the crop circles...they also demonstrated the way they did it. Whereupon the crop circle believers dismissed the claims and said that the circles were too sophisticated to be forged during a few hours of darkness. So the makers invited a film crew and a very highly respected BBC journalist ( David Dimbleby )to film them at work...at night using rope and planks they created a circle of extraordinary complexity in a few hours.
    The crop circle devotees then responded by declaring the whole film a fake.....
    Then one of the leading circle makers commited suicide...the following summer there were hardly any circles. The devotees said that the aliens were holding off for a while for reasons that were coincidental...
    Human beings have an infinite capacity for self deception. As well as the capacity to see the truth.
  • The reason you get conflicting reports is because, as I mentioned, having the title "Scientist" stuck on you does not make you an instant expert in everything. Being a chemist does not make you an instant expert in Medieval forgery techniques. Even the real experts are sometimes glaringly fooled.

    But as Citta points out, it's all irrelevant to the true believer. No "evidence" is going to change their mind. Their picture of reality is filtered through their beliefs, and anything that doesn't match their beliefs is simply explained away. Especially when they have been taught that belief is a virtue and doubt is a sin or weakness. An old diary could be found and authenticated, where the forger writes about how he did it and include drawings of the shroud, and the true believer would say the diary is the forgery.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the void Veteran
    The reason you get conflicting reports is because, as I mentioned, having the title "Scientist" stuck on you does not make you an instant expert in everything. Being a chemist does not make you an instant expert in Medieval forgery techniques. Even the real experts are sometimes glaringly fooled.

    But as Citta points out, it's all irrelevant to the true believer. No "evidence" is going to change their mind. Their picture of reality is filtered through their beliefs, and anything that doesn't match their beliefs is simply explained away. Especially when they have been taught that belief is a virtue and doubt is a sin or weakness. An old diary could be found and authenticated, where the forger writes about how he did it and include drawings of the shroud, and the true believer would say the diary is the forgery.
    On the whole I agree with you. What about those who have been taught that doubt is a virtue and belief a weakness though? Can't they cling to belief, or disbelief maybe, too?
  • @person I have met people who I consider too clinging to disbelief and doubt, yes.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited December 2011
    Not only did they confess to creating most of the crop circles...they also demonstrated the way they did it. Whereupon the crop circle believers dismissed the claims and said that the circles were too sophisticated to be forged during a few hours of darkness. So the makers invited a film crew and a very highly respected BBC journalist ( David Dimbleby )to film them at work...at night using rope and planks they created a circle of extraordinary complexity in a few hours.
    The crop circle devotees then responded by declaring the whole film a fake.....
    Then one of the leading circle makers commited suicide...the following summer there were hardly any circles. The devotees said that the aliens were holding off for a while for reasons that were coincidental...
    Human beings have an infinite capacity for self deception. As well as the capacity to see the truth.
    lol! Does anyone get the irony of the culties being the ones to denounce the crop circle artists' film as being forged? It's' an upside-down-world!

    Thanks, citta, for this information. Now I have a little more ammunition, if I ever run into any more crop circle devotees. I explained to one once, about the artists (really, I think it's a brilliant art form, I wonder if they've won any awards or anything), and she insisted it was aliens doing "acupuncture" on the Earth, as the British Isles are the "ear" of Gaia (Mother Earth's) body. :rolleyes: Aliens are coming to heal the Earth before we toast it with pollution and global warning. Now we can all sleep better at night.
    I love the idea of Nessie, Big Foot, Oogoopogo, Yeti, etc. I like the idea that there are more creatures out there. :) sometimes science is such a downer lol
    In view of discoveries the last few years of a separate strain of hominids that survived until surprisingly recently in Indonesia and other parts of the East Pacific, co-existing with modern man, there is still hope for Yeti, Raven. Here's my holiday gift to you of a little ray of hope for Yeti. ^_^

    P.S. FYI, Raven: Native Americans from the NW Coast have told me Bigfoot is a spirit being (in their tradition). That's why he's hard to see.

  • @Dakini, thank you for your gift of hope. :D I didn't know about Bigfoot being a spirit being; that's very cool!

    I hope one day to see at least one of these creatures, and I also hope they don't eat me. (Maybe they're all vegetarians?)
  • ThaoThao Veteran
    The cloth they picked was the same cloth, not a patch, but it was a corner where everyone over the years had touched it and that was said to have corrupted the data.
  • o this is one very rare occasion in which I have to contradict @Cinorjer. Otherwise I'm a huge fan of his tell-it-like-it-is-ness.
    Aa-a-ahh-men.
    Amen.
    amen.
    Aa-a-ahh-men.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    "The results of radiocarbon measurements at Arizona, Oxford and Zurich yield a calibrated calendar age range with at least 95% confidence for the linen of the Shroud of Turin of AD 1260 - 1390 (rounded down/up to nearest 10 yr). These results therefore provide conclusive evidence that the linen of the Shroud of Turin is mediaeval"
    I read something about Jacque de Molay and the fall of the Templars in 1307 - they tortured him and wrapped him in a shroud...
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I read something about Jacque de Molay and the fall of the Templars in 1307 - they tortured him and wrapped him in a shroud...
    !!

  • o this is one very rare occasion in which I have to contradict @Cinorjer. Otherwise I'm a huge fan of his tell-it-like-it-is-ness.
    Aa-a-ahh-men.
    Amen.
    amen.
    Aa-a-ahh-men.
    To quote my own dear, departed Grandmother:

    "Everyone has to be wrong once in a while."

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    a recent programme revealed how in all probability. Leonardo da Vinci faked it....
    fascinating.
    and about as compelling evidence as one would need....
    once the findings were presented to the Vatican - they withdrew permission for further examination....
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/5706640/Turin-Shroud-is-face-of-Leonardo-da-Vinci.html

    I watched the documentary and i tell you, it's not guesswork, it's meticulous research....
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    The Shroud is true.
    The Shroud is false.

    Now how does this help me to wash the dishes?
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    up to you - who cares how it helps?

    the shroud should not be used as a dishcloth.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    up to you - who cares how it helps?

    the shroud should not be used as a dishcloth.
    In which case it should be used as....?

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    a holy relic or a tablecloth.
    they sell them in Vatican gift-shops as souvenirs, you know.
    Turin shroud tablecloths. :rolleyes:

    like the church really needs the money.....
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    like the church really needs the money.....
    Actually, I've read the Church does need the money. So many people have quit, that income from Sunday donations and private donations have really crashed. There's a bit of a fiscal crisis.

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    well maybe they should sell some of their assets.....


    Oh don't get me going.....
  • @Dakini, thank you for your gift of hope. :D I didn't know about Bigfoot being a spirit being; that's very cool!

    I hope one day to see at least one of these creatures, and I also hope they don't eat me. (Maybe they're all vegetarians?)
    Larry the Cable Guy went on a BigFoot hunt and raised a hollar response



  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I didn't know about Bigfoot being a spirit being; that's very cool!

    I hope one day to see at least one of these creatures, and I also hope they don't eat me. (Maybe they're all vegetarians?)
    If they're spirit beings, they don't eat, right? You're safe. ;)

  • The Turin Shroud could not have been faked, say scientists
    Oh please... Who exactly are these "scientists" and what are their credentials? And what are their sources for this claim? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Most members of one team were from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    The Turin Shroud could not have been faked, say scientists
    Oh please... Who exactly are these "scientists" and what are their credentials? And what are their sources for this claim? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
    Fair enough.
    But, the Buddhist scriptures are the exact words of Buddah?
    Same standard?

  • So maybe this shroud can be Lord Buddha's robe when he get Nirvana in Bod Gaya.

    Just guessing. :)

    Blessings.
  • Fiscal crisis in Vatican? That probably means that some undersecretary's assistant can no longer afford to order beluga caviar for breakfast and fois gras for brunch! :)) He'll have to cope -- he can still pay his mistress' apartment in Rome. :P
  • Most members of one team were from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.
    Actually when some effort was put into the claims by an actual investigative reporter, it was discovered one retired chemist who was a shroud devotee used to work at the laboratory and still had access to its equipment. The "team" consisted of him and anyone he could get to help run the equipment during nonworking hours. He wrote a book, announced a breathtakingly misleading press release that was repeated word for word by news sources, and yet another "controversy" is born.

    Here is the actual fact:

    The man didn't "disprove" the carbon dating. The only way to do that is do the carbon dating again and get another result. Scientists recognize this test had put the nail in the coffin of doubt. So true believers fell back on the people doing the testing must have been stupid enough to get samples from the obvious patches applied later, after a fire. In spite of pictures and specific procedures recorded that made sure the samples came from the original. So what did this scientist find this time? First, he claimed to have a couple of tiny threads from the original test sample, in spite of that sample being completely destroyed in the testing. But let's say he really did get his hands on some remaining threads.

    Rogers compared these threads with some small samples from elsewhere on the Shroud, claiming to find differences between the two sets of threads that “prove” the radiocarbon sample “was not part of the original cloth” of the Turin shroud.

    How can his testing show this? The reported differences include the presence—allegedly only on the “radiocarbon sample”—of cotton fibers and a coating of madder root dye in a binding medium that his tests “suggest” is gum Arabic....However, Rogers’ assertions to the contrary, both the cotton and the madder have been found elsewhere on the shroud. Both were specifically reported by famed microanalyst Walter McCrone.

    By the way, even this scientist had to admit that testing shows medieval watercolor paint chemicals show up on the image. He explains this away as someone "touching up" the original image.

    What's fascinating is seeing the mind of the "true believer" at work in this. For a true believer, there is literally no counter evidence that will not be explained away if it conflicts with a belief. An education makes no difference. For some people, they are unable to admit they were wrong once a belief is formed. Fascinating.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2012
    Wow, thanks, @Cinorjer. In an interview with the Santa Fe New Mexican, he said he wasn't at all a believer, that he wanted nothing to do with being on the team, but that they dragged him kicking and screaming to be on the team. He said he wasn't a Shroudie, a cult believer in the shroud, or not even religious.

    But it makes a great yarn to say that he wasn't into it, then suddenly found evidence that shook up his view of reality.

    It's a great yarn for playing to a predominantly Catholic state. btw, could you provide a source for your de-bunking?
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    edited April 2012

    But, the Buddhist scriptures are the exact words of Buddah?
    Who said that? I certainly have never heard such a ridiculous notion, given that none of the sutras were even written down on paper for several hundred years after the man died. I don't believe they're his exact words any more than I believe the bible is the exact words of Jesus, Moses, or anybody else. We can't even figure out who said exactly what six weeks ago when Trayvon Martin was killed, much less what happened 2500 years ago.
  • What's fascinating is seeing the mind of the "true believer" at work in this. For a true believer, there is literally no counter evidence that will not be explained away if it conflicts with a belief. An education makes no difference. For some people, they are unable to admit they were wrong once a belief is formed. Fascinating.
    Absolutely true here, and in almost any other facet of life. Evolution, global climate change, spherical earth, WMD's in Iraq, Saddam Hussein's connection to 9/11, Obama's birth certificate, etc, etc, etc.

    Those whose nature is to question everything aren't the ones who cling to their beliefs with such ferocity. Extraordinary claims (Shroud of Turin "can't" be fake) require extraordinary proof.
  • Wow, thanks, @Cinorjer. In an interview with the Santa Fe New Mexican, he said he wasn't at all a believer, that he wanted nothing to do with being on the team, but that they dragged him kicking and screaming to be on the team. He said he wasn't a Shroudie, a cult believer in the shroud, or not even religious.

    But it makes a great yarn to say that he wasn't into it, then suddenly found evidence that shook up his view of reality.

    It's a great yarn for playing to a predominantly Catholic state. btw, could you provide a source for your de-bunking?
    A good place to start and then explore their links is The Skeptics Dictionary, at http://skepdic.com/ It regularly updates all the catagories with whatever is in the news.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    But, the Buddhist scriptures are the exact words of Buddah?
    Who said that? I certainly have never heard such a ridiculous notion, given that none of the sutras were even written down on paper for several hundred years after the man died. I don't believe they're his exact words any more than I believe the bible is the exact words of Jesus, Moses, or anybody else. We can't even figure out who said exactly what six weeks ago when Trayvon Martin was killed, much less what happened 2500 years ago.
    I agree with you completely. But there are quite a few who do believe that, and my point was that we should hold all religions to the same standards.
  • ThaoThao Veteran
    What this critic fails to acknowlege is that the sampling methodology was completely violated, one sample was taken (instead of three) from the outside corner edge, an area that had been handled hundreds of times and had the most potential for contamination or repair. What Rogers found was all the ingredients of a medieval repair. Was it repaired? We don't know for sure, we need access to the cloth to confirm. What this critic also fails to mention is that if one is going to claim a medieval origin, one might also try to produce the alleged artist who did it, and what technique he employed. Everything so far says it is not the work of an artist. The other thing this critic fails to mention is that the historical trail now fully validates the age of the Shroud to be at least 700 years older than the oldest carbon date. Is it First Century? We don't know. Carbon dating is not a litmus test. It is only an indicator, and all indications are that it is wrong. Right now, but the best candidate for why it is wrong is a medieval repair.
  • Hi @Thao

    I'm interested, what evidence would convince you that what seems to be by all evidence just another medieval "holy relic" forgery is in fact what it appears to be? What is it you require as proof?
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Everything so far says it is not the work of an artist.
    Recent research indicates that this is precisely what it is.

  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited April 2012
    It looks like a painting.. a stain-job in the early Italian renaissance style..

    The table cloth sounds really cool ..
Sign In or Register to comment.