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The Turin Shroud could not have been faked, say scientists
http://www.montrealgazette.com/mobile/story.html?id=5883796
"The double image (front and back) of a scourged and crucified man, barely visible on the linen cloth of the Shroud of Turin, has many physical and chemical characteristics that are so particular that the staining Ö is impossible to obtain in a laboratory," concluded experts from Italy's National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Development.
The scientists set out to "identify the physical and chemical processes capable of generating a colour similar to that of the image on the shroud". They concluded that the shade, texture and depth of the imprints on the cloth could be produced only with the aid of ultraviolet lasers producing extremely brief pulses of light.
They said the image of the bearded man must therefore have been created by "some form of electromagnetic energy (such as a flash of light at short wavelength)".
Although they stopped short of offering a non-scientific explanation for the phenomenon, their findings will be embraced by those who believe that the marks on the shroud were miraculously created at the moment of Christ's Resurrection.
"We are not at the conclusion. We are composing pieces of a fascinating and complex scientific puzzle," the team reported.
"The double image (front and back) of a scourged and crucified man, barely visible on the linen cloth of the Shroud of Turin, has many physical and chemical characteristics that are so particular that the staining Ö is impossible to obtain in a laboratory," concluded experts from Italy's National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Development.
The scientists set out to "identify the physical and chemical processes capable of generating a colour similar to that of the image on the shroud". They concluded that the shade, texture and depth of the imprints on the cloth could be produced only with the aid of ultraviolet lasers producing extremely brief pulses of light.
They said the image of the bearded man must therefore have been created by "some form of electromagnetic energy (such as a flash of light at short wavelength)".
Although they stopped short of offering a non-scientific explanation for the phenomenon, their findings will be embraced by those who believe that the marks on the shroud were miraculously created at the moment of Christ's Resurrection.
"We are not at the conclusion. We are composing pieces of a fascinating and complex scientific puzzle," the team reported.
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The shroud was shown to be a forgery many years ago using proven dating techniques and experts in ancient textiles, painting, and medieval history also agree it's nothing special and fully explain how it was made. Yet, true believers ignore all this and continue to seek ever wilder theories of how all the real experts must be wrong.
When you see something like this, where the title "scientist" is used as if all professors and doctors and engineers are equally qualified to talk about anything, you can pretty much know it's worthless. What the heck does an engineer who plays with lasers know about the techniques a medieval artist has available or if this type of weaving was even used in ancient Israel?
Just about every famous forgery of an ancient artifact has a list of "scientists" who swore it had to be genuine. The one thing they all have in common is, those scientists were not experts in the particular field needed to spot a forgery and should have known better. But scientist and ego often go together.
Tests on the textile that other teams had done before and after the Los Alamos team's study tested parts of the cloth that were patches added later, and therefore not representative of the original cloth. It seems very strange that patches that were not original were chosen for the testing, but that's what reports say.
So this is one very rare occasion in which I have to contradict Cinorjer.
http://www.shroud.com/nature.htm
However, I do find some of the shroud study results intriguing. Here are the results of the study Dakini refers to, by the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP), including chemist Raymond Rogers' report. The fact that another project was recently done that came to similar conclusions as the STURP team is also interesting, though an Italian team might be biased.
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/rogers2.pdf
http://www.shroud.com/78conclu.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STURP
edit: @swingisyellow Is that the full quote? Those results were found by the STURP team to have come from sections of the shroud that were later additions. See the first couple of pages of R.Rogers' doc.
But of more interest to me is the fascinating history of people refusing to give up a belief in the face of not only scientific evidence, but common sense. Take crop circles, or Big Foot, or Nessie, or any one of dozens of beliefs that people have. We can maybe say the odds are overwhelmingly against aliens doodling in fields of corn, or a population of hairy cavemen hide in the trees of the NorthWest, but there is a tiny chance it's possible. But some people insist against all reason that aliens must be drawing circles in the dirt, and a plaster cast "proves" Big Foot exists. It is a fascinating ability of the human mind to filter the world around us to fit our preconceived beliefs.
RE; Big Foot, etc.--the guy who produced a cast of a footprint, and also film footage of Big Foot later 'fessed up that he'd faked those. I read in an article back in the 90's that some artists in England confessed they'd come up with the idea of crop circles as a new art form, and Nessie, didn't she turn out to be a giant sturgeon? They can get huge if they live to an old enough age.
The crop circle devotees then responded by declaring the whole film a fake.....
Then one of the leading circle makers commited suicide...the following summer there were hardly any circles. The devotees said that the aliens were holding off for a while for reasons that were coincidental...
Human beings have an infinite capacity for self deception. As well as the capacity to see the truth.
But as Citta points out, it's all irrelevant to the true believer. No "evidence" is going to change their mind. Their picture of reality is filtered through their beliefs, and anything that doesn't match their beliefs is simply explained away. Especially when they have been taught that belief is a virtue and doubt is a sin or weakness. An old diary could be found and authenticated, where the forger writes about how he did it and include drawings of the shroud, and the true believer would say the diary is the forgery.
Thanks, citta, for this information. Now I have a little more ammunition, if I ever run into any more crop circle devotees. I explained to one once, about the artists (really, I think it's a brilliant art form, I wonder if they've won any awards or anything), and she insisted it was aliens doing "acupuncture" on the Earth, as the British Isles are the "ear" of Gaia (Mother Earth's) body. :rolleyes: Aliens are coming to heal the Earth before we toast it with pollution and global warning. Now we can all sleep better at night. In view of discoveries the last few years of a separate strain of hominids that survived until surprisingly recently in Indonesia and other parts of the East Pacific, co-existing with modern man, there is still hope for Yeti, Raven. Here's my holiday gift to you of a little ray of hope for Yeti. ^_^
P.S. FYI, Raven: Native Americans from the NW Coast have told me Bigfoot is a spirit being (in their tradition). That's why he's hard to see.
I hope one day to see at least one of these creatures, and I also hope they don't eat me. (Maybe they're all vegetarians?)
Amen.
amen.
Aa-a-ahh-men.
"Everyone has to be wrong once in a while."
fascinating.
and about as compelling evidence as one would need....
once the findings were presented to the Vatican - they withdrew permission for further examination....
I watched the documentary and i tell you, it's not guesswork, it's meticulous research....
The Shroud is false.
Now how does this help me to wash the dishes?
the shroud should not be used as a dishcloth.
they sell them in Vatican gift-shops as souvenirs, you know.
Turin shroud tablecloths. :rolleyes:
like the church really needs the money.....
Oh don't get me going.....
But, the Buddhist scriptures are the exact words of Buddah?
Same standard?
Just guessing.
Blessings.
Here is the actual fact:
The man didn't "disprove" the carbon dating. The only way to do that is do the carbon dating again and get another result. Scientists recognize this test had put the nail in the coffin of doubt. So true believers fell back on the people doing the testing must have been stupid enough to get samples from the obvious patches applied later, after a fire. In spite of pictures and specific procedures recorded that made sure the samples came from the original. So what did this scientist find this time? First, he claimed to have a couple of tiny threads from the original test sample, in spite of that sample being completely destroyed in the testing. But let's say he really did get his hands on some remaining threads.
Rogers compared these threads with some small samples from elsewhere on the Shroud, claiming to find differences between the two sets of threads that “prove” the radiocarbon sample “was not part of the original cloth” of the Turin shroud.
How can his testing show this? The reported differences include the presence—allegedly only on the “radiocarbon sample”—of cotton fibers and a coating of madder root dye in a binding medium that his tests “suggest” is gum Arabic....However, Rogers’ assertions to the contrary, both the cotton and the madder have been found elsewhere on the shroud. Both were specifically reported by famed microanalyst Walter McCrone.
By the way, even this scientist had to admit that testing shows medieval watercolor paint chemicals show up on the image. He explains this away as someone "touching up" the original image.
What's fascinating is seeing the mind of the "true believer" at work in this. For a true believer, there is literally no counter evidence that will not be explained away if it conflicts with a belief. An education makes no difference. For some people, they are unable to admit they were wrong once a belief is formed. Fascinating.
But it makes a great yarn to say that he wasn't into it, then suddenly found evidence that shook up his view of reality.
It's a great yarn for playing to a predominantly Catholic state. btw, could you provide a source for your de-bunking?
Those whose nature is to question everything aren't the ones who cling to their beliefs with such ferocity. Extraordinary claims (Shroud of Turin "can't" be fake) require extraordinary proof.
I'm interested, what evidence would convince you that what seems to be by all evidence just another medieval "holy relic" forgery is in fact what it appears to be? What is it you require as proof?
The table cloth sounds really cool ..