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Personal responsibility & Compassion

Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal DhammaWe(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
To what extent are people responsible for their own happiness? To what extent are we responsible to make others happy?

I ask this because lately, I've had quite a few friends talk about/post on FB about body image issues - not their own (at least not overtly), but within the context of the fashion industry and the overabundance of skinny models, etc.

It got me thinking - it's so easy to blame the transnational corporations for "brainwashing" people and "making" them feel bad about their bodies. But surely we have a responsibility to ourselves to be compassionate and accepting of ourselves... how much does that come into play? Is it reasonable to put a majority of the blame on the global, faceless "Other," as they are the ones promoting these standards of beauty? Or are we mainly to blame for buying into it?

In my opinion, it's somewhere in between (big surprise there :p ). Of course marketers shouldn't be consciously promoting a certain standard of beauty that has been shown to be psychologically harmful, but we also need to guard ourselves from these messages. We shouldn't feel the need to have our bodies approved by Abercrombie & Fitch to feel good about ourselves... but is it unskillful to actually say this to someone?


Just a bit of rambling, but something that comes up quite a bit for me actually. I want to know your thoughts!
zombiegirl
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Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Kalama Sutta.

    Applies to everything, really.
    Invincible_summer
  • Both: personal and group. IMO.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I would imagine it depends who you are saying it to and within what context. I do think that most people understand the concept of self love and acceptance logically but they struggle to truly apply it in the face of everything they are told every day.

    It is up to us to protect ourselves, yes, but most people don't have the ability to withdraw from society in order to do so. Mostly we are talking about young people here, as older people mostly tend to accept themselves a bit better. But the younger group, starting as young as 10 or so up to, on, late 20s have the hardest time with this. Even if they avoid tv, it's everywhere. Everything you see and hear is constantly telling young people that they aren't good enough. When someone is immersed in that kind of message, it is very hard at a young age to think yourself out of it. Parents have a responsibility to teach, and protect their children as much as they can, but it's pretty hard. I can control what my kid's see and hear while they are at my house. But I cannot control what ads they see on the side of a bus or billboard, what they hear on the radio during baseball practice, what they see and hear at school, and so on. It's extremely pervasive.

    I think some people are more sensitive than others, and those with low self-esteem are more likely to get caught up in these messages and buy into them. But even though it's ultimately up to us as individuals to find our acceptance and happiness, it's still up to us as a society to value people for their actual worth as a person and we fail miserably at that.
    Invincible_summer
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    I am a fashion icon.

    . . . well maybe in the hell realms . . . . ;)

    Women are lovely. Men too (so I have been told).
    The 'external beauty' confidence scam is shallow and comedic. However you might have been contaminated. Get well. Live simply. Be beautiful in nature not unnaturally.

    Women in particular are bombarded with an image that is based on anorexic emos that are self hating. I know how easy it is to be contaminated by false values and ideals.

    Breaking free, going makeup less etc is hard . . . However it is a freedom.
    We should lock up the fashion industry for crimes against humanity. They are enslaving innocents. Should we be compassionate? It may be they need reeducating. Perhaps they could be trained as flower arrangers?

    We are all weak, fragile, easily led, easily broken. Be kind to those who have fallen on life's cat walk . . . one day we will have, 'bodhisattvas on parade'.
    . . . till then . . .

    :wave:
    John_SpencernenkohaiInvincible_summer
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    OP, I think that for adults, it's easier to blow off corporate propaganda. For teens whose bodies are changing, and for whom group acceptance is more important than ever, at a time when emotions are in flux as are hormones, the media culture of beauty and perfection can seem very cruel. Parental guidance from an early age about how advertising, and images in film and TV carry subliminal messages, is key. Most kids don't get that kind of parental input, though. And insecure teens can grow into insecure adults.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    I don’t know where your friends are coming from; but this is the thought that came up:

    The idea of accepting ourselves sounds nice but obesity is a serious problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity

    Real compassion is not always being nice and compassion for oneself can also include facing a painful truth and taking responsibility for the amount of calories we put in our body.
    Invincible_summer
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I think one can accept themselves and still work towards better health. I think that if someone needs a wake up call in regards to their health, I try to leave that to their doctors and maybe their close family. I don't just randomly go about telling my friends that they are obese and need to do something about it. It's not as if they don't realize they are obese or overweight. For many of them self-acceptance and love is the key to wanting to improve their health (if they are able, and if they are indeed unhealthy). A lot of people with weight issues have them because of emotional problems that lead them to treat food as a comfort. For most of us, it is not up to us to tell someone else to fix their life. Self-acceptance is more so about loving and caring for yourself, not just your body. You cannot care for your body until you feel you are worth caring for. People with body image issues have problems doing that and it turns into a vicious circle.
    GlowlobsterInvincible_summerMaryAnne
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited May 2013
    loving and caring for yourself yes, yes.. a kick in the butt is what some people need.
  • ...surely we have a responsibility to ourselves to be compassionate and accepting of ourselves... how much does that come into play? Is it reasonable to put a majority of the blame on the global, faceless "Other," as they are the ones promoting these standards of beauty? Or are we mainly to blame for buying into it?

    The question from my perspective is what is under the individual's control. That's where one ought to attend most closely, because that's where the most scope for improvement lies. It doesn't matter where the blame lies, but the responsibility for improving your life always lies with you.
    riverflowInvincible_summerkarmablues
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    edited May 2013
    This might be relevant: The Motivating Power of Self-Compassion by Kristin Neff
    Research shows that self-critics are much more likely to be anxious and depressed -- not exactly get-up-and-go mindsets. They also have lower self-efficacy beliefs (i.e., self-confidence in their abilities), which undermines their potential for success. The habit of self-criticism engenders fear of failure, meaning that self-critics often don't even try achieving their goals because the possibility of failure is unacceptable. Even more problematic, self-critics have a hard time seeing themselves clearly and identifying needed areas of improvement because they know the self-punishment that will ensue if they admit the truth. Much better to deny there's a problem or, even better, blame it on someone else.

    But is a compassionate response to our shortcomings any better? Yes.

    It's relatively easy to see when we think about how a compassionate and caring parent might motivate a child who is struggling. Although parenting manuals of the past often endorsed a harsh and critical approach -- spare the rod and spoil the child -- decades of research have shown that this tactic is counterproductive. Let's say your teenage daughter Mary comes home from school with a failing math grade. If you say, "You're so stupid and lame! What a loser! You're hopeless and will never amount to anything!" is that really going to help motivate Mary? Instead it will probably depress her to the point of wanting to give up math all together. Much more effective would be to take an understanding and supportive approach: "I know you're disappointed, especially since you need to get good math scores to get into college, and clearly something is not working in your study routine. But I know you can do it, and I'll help you in any way I can. Maybe you need to spend more time doing homework, or go to a tutor." This compassionate approach is much more likely to give Mary the emotional resources needed to pick herself up and try again.
    Invincible_summerpersongracelee
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    karasti said:

    Do you really think going to your overweight or obese friend and saying "Hey, you are overweight/fat. In case you didn't know that, it's not good for you. You should do something about it." is going to help anything? I highly doubt a conversation such as that is going to bring an overweight or obese person to have a lightbulb moment and realize "OMG! I'm fat and I need to lose weight! THANK YOU SO MUCH for telling me that."

    What they need is love and support from some people who care versus a world who still bullies them constantly.

    Well, certainly they don't need bullying. I guess it depends on what you mean by support. I can see support ending up condoning the behavior that leads a person to be overweight (which, BTW, I am).

    I'm reminded of a kid who came to my office crying one day. I had him sit down and asked him why he was crying. To paraphrase (and remember, this is a 12 year old): "The other juveniles in this institution aren't at the same level as my intellect. And as a result, those individuals taunt me because they are inferior to me. They refer to me as a nerd because my intellect allows me to utilize a level of verbal interaction that confuses them. And so, they constantly reiterate the same derogatory comments about me."

    I responded that if he wanted to be treated like a normal kid, maybe he needed to start acting normal. They wouldn't call you a nerd and a geek if you didn't act like a nerd or geek.

    His response (again, paraphrased): "No. I am of the opinion that I should uphold my dignity by refusing to lower my behavioral standards to those pupils who are clearly beneath me."

    Well, it's back to the old saying that (and I always get this wrong) ""If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got". I referred the kid to counseling and discussed the situation with his parents...who were geeks/nerds themselves, and they didn't see an issue.

    My point...if by support, what needs to said never gets said, then I think we just condone.

    lobsterInvincible_summerkarmablues
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited May 2013
    I was trying to say that self-acceptance and blaming the fashion industry for creating an ideal image of skinny people can be a way of being in denial about a real and serious health issue; obesity.
    That’s not bullying.
    When people are in denial about their problem it is not compassionate to reinforce them in their denial.

    vinlynInvincible_summerSillyPutty
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    There's something to be said for tact and skill for conversation. There are ways to convey your concern for a person's health that are more sensitive than others. There are people who can get away with suggesting someone lose weight in such a way that it is motivating rather than stigmatizing and demoralizing. If you are not one of these people, it would be more skillful to (as my high school history teacher would say) "shut your yap-face." It's possible to do more harm than good with a few careless words.

    I have never actually been overweight. But from being in situations where a huge lifestyle change was necessary, that motivation needed to come from within. It never worked when I was coerced by others, or when others used scare tactics on me.
    Invincible_summerpersonkarmabluesMaryAnne
  • fivebells said:

    It doesn't matter where the blame lies, but the responsibility for improving your life always lies with you.

    One corollary of this is, if your facebook friends are annoying, find some other venue for your social life. :)
    lobsterInvincible_summerGlow
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    Glow said:


    I have never actually been overweight. But from being in situations where a huge lifestyle change was necessary, that motivation needed to come from within. It never worked when I was coerced by others, or when others used scare tactics on me.

    I have been overweight.
    Struggling with it gave me a fresh look on friendship.

    There were very friendly people who (with the best of intentions) supported the part of me / the potential thoughts that undermined my effort of getting grip on my weight.

    There were not so friendly people who (maybe with not the best of intentions) attacked these thoughts and who said things I didn’t particularly wanted to hear.
    I learned to appreciate these “unkind” comments. They supported the potential thoughts that would make me change my habits.
    Glowkarmablues
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited May 2013
    For example I talked to a colleague who explained to me how the members of his family gave him the food from their plate that they didn’t want to eat anymore. They knew he loved food and would never say no.

    I said they used him as the nearest trash can and that remark made him angry.
    But I knew because I had been in the exact same situation and had learned to stop being the nearest trash can myself.

    But I’ll give this discussion a rest. We’re off topic I think

  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    edited May 2013
    I provided a context that is linked to weight and body-image, but I think it can be broadened to any "shaking fist at the sky" situation.

    It's such a fine line between completely expecting others to solve problems for us and blaming ourselves for our shortcomings. Why is it so hard to talk to most people about this? The world thrives on duality and black and white... it's sort of sad how discussing the grey areas can be almost a "radical" act.
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Gentle Man Veteran
    Well, we can blame ourselves, then learn from what we blame ourselves for, and then put the blame behind us. I tend to see the need for middle way more and more, the more I meditate and contemplate. I am not boasting here, just saying practice is working for me more and more.
    Invincible_summer
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    zenff said:

    Glow said:


    I have never actually been overweight. But from being in situations where a huge lifestyle change was necessary, that motivation needed to come from within. It never worked when I was coerced by others, or when others used scare tactics on me.

    I have been overweight.
    Struggling with it gave me a fresh look on friendship.

    There were very friendly people who (with the best of intentions) supported the part of me / the potential thoughts that undermined my effort of getting grip on my weight.

    There were not so friendly people who (maybe with not the best of intentions) attacked these thoughts and who said things I didn’t particularly wanted to hear.
    I learned to appreciate these “unkind” comments. They supported the potential thoughts that would make me change my habits.
    zenff said:

    For example I talked to a colleague who explained to me how the members of his family gave him the food from their plate that they didn’t want to eat anymore. They knew he loved food and would never say no.

    I said they used him as the nearest trash can and that remark made him angry.
    But I knew because I had been in the exact same situation and had learned to stop being the nearest trash can myself.

    But I’ll give this discussion a rest. We’re off topic I think

    True, you don't want to be an enabler. That is not helpful or compassionate. But IME you also don't want to add any more emotional baggage around a situation than is necessary. Sometimes forceful words can cut through a pattern with a lot of momentum -- coming from the right person at the right time, painful truths can become motivators. At other times, though, they just stigmatize people or add a layer of guilt or shame to an already complex situation.

    When I tried to quit smoking the first few times, a lot of friends tried to pull the "tough love" approach on me. It just made the inevitable lapses even more wrought with shame. I had to get away from those people (well, all people for a while) and just listen very attentively to my body and mind. It was a very inward process and I had to set aside a lot of the things I'd heard about smoking. It's like when someone tells you "Don't look down!" when you're high up somewhere. It's better just to pay attention to the moment at hand sometimes. :)
    Invincible_summerpersonMaryAnne
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    zenff said:

    I don’t know where your friends are coming from; but this is the thought that came up:

    The idea of accepting ourselves sounds nice but obesity is a serious problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity

    Real compassion is not always being nice and compassion for oneself can also include facing a painful truth and taking responsibility for the amount of calories we put in our body.

    Well- As a fat/size acceptance advocate and a HAES (Health At Every Size) activist, now you've stepped into MY territory! So I just gotta say, with all due respect:

    And who made you (or anyone) the police of other people's bodies - or 'health' - or caloric intake?
    That is a horrendously arrogant position to assume based on nothing more than what a person LOOKS like. It is a bias, a prejudice, and nothing less. There is no 'compassion' in assessing, judging, and shaming people based on their looks.

    Overweight / obesity is a VERY complex issue.
    For the most part--- the "obesity epidemic" is a media & diet industry created faux crisis. Obesity rates have fallen and leveled off for the last 10 years or more; especially among children. There are studies, believe me, but they don't sell fear and loathing to the masses with those studies...

    Fat people CAN be healthy. MANY fat people are active, healthy and yes, even athletic.
    Thin people are not automatically healthy by merits of pants or dress size.
    There is not one single solitary disease that ONLY fat people get because they are fat. Not diabetes, not heart disease, not cancer. They claim that being obese "raises the risk factors" for certain diseases. However, according to the studies (even quoted by my own doctors) the rise in the percentage risk factor is NOT THAT SIGNIFICANT.

    Here's a good Example:
    The new obesity horror-de-jour is cervical cancer amongst fat women. Here's how it works:
    Take a random sampling of 100 average-to-thin size women and about 3% will at some point develop cervical cancer.
    Take a random sampling of 100 Obese (and ONLY obese) women, and the percentages 'jump' to 4.5 - 5.5%. , not exactly significant.
    Oh sure, nearly double, but it's not like it's jumping from 45% to 80%. Things are never kept in perspective when there are pills to sell and diet plans to shame fat people into....
    It is certainly much LESS significant than the rise in stats for smokers vs. Non-smokers, drinkers vs non-drinkers, etc. Yet we don't exactly attempt to assess and vilify every single person seen sipping a cocktail, do we? And one reason there may be that rise in statistical percentages is because many fat people avoid preventative medical care or monitoring- to avoid going to health care "professionals" who shame them for their weight and/or blame their weight for every symptom under the sun.

    Another thing to ponder; according to the ADA; Diabetes has a current rate (in the USA) of 8.3% of the entire adult population. However there are claims that 35% of the adult population in the USA is Significantly Overweight, and 15% are morbidly obese.
    Soooooo.... why isn't diabetes up to at least the 15 - 20% mark instead of merely 8%? Because weight is usually a SYMPTOM of diabetes, not the cause of diabetes, that's why. Never has been.

    Even if you are a doctor, one can not judge why a person is fat, nor their health status, just by looking at them. You can't divine their cholesterol numbers, their triglycerides, their hormonal balance, their thyroid function, their blood pressure or any other VALID measurement of "health" just by how fat (or thin) they are. This is a fact.





    lobster
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    @MaryAnne, I'm reading a book by dean ornish. First of all it points out that there is a spectrum of diets. It's not all or nothing. And he points although he is viewed as a health nut that he still has some naughty things.

    But part of the book shows how his preventative care measures can reverse heart disease by a greater factor than coronary bipass surgery!

    I'm not saying size of pants is the determining factor but it is apparent from ornish's research that diet and exercise are a major factor in the health of a person.
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    @MaryAnne, I'm reading a book by dean ornish. First of all it points out that there is a spectrum of diets. It's not all or nothing. And he points although he is viewed as a health nut that he still has some naughty things.

    But part of the book shows how his preventative care measures can reverse heart disease by a greater factor than coronary bipass surgery!

    I'm not saying size of pants is the determining factor but it is apparent from ornish's research that diet and exercise are a major factor in the health of a person.



    I have not heard of this author, but honestly there is nothing he or you have said in your post that I can argue with. Diet and exercise IS important, absolutely.
    My point is, that lots of fat people DO exercise, and DO eat healthy.... many move more and eat healthier than naturally thin folks do. My point is you can't TELL who is healthy and who isn't only by the numbers on a scale or what a person looks like. Nothing more, nothing less.
    JeffreykarastilobsterStraight_Man
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    MaryAnne said:


    My point is, that lots of fat people DO exercise, and DO eat healthy.... many move more and eat healthier than naturally thin folks do. My point is you can't TELL who is healthy and who isn't only by the numbers on a scale or what a person looks like. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Health risks are about statistics. In the discussion about smoking – some decades ago - people could argue they had an uncle who had smoked all his life and who died in his sleep when he was 93 years old or something like that. See? Smoking isn’t necessarily bad for your health!

    And we know that was rubbish. The chances of cancer and heart disease go up dramatically for smokers.
    It’s roughly the same for people with high fat percentages. They have significant higher health risks.

    I don’t care too much what people look like and I’m not as judgmental as I may seem. Obesity is a real health risk though. And the problem is growing worldwide. Denying it is as harmful as denying the health risks of smoking or alcohol abuse.
    Plus I for one know that I feel much better after losing the overweight.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited May 2013

    I provided a context that is linked to weight and body-image, but I think it can be broadened to any "shaking fist at the sky" situation.

    It's such a fine line between completely expecting others to solve problems for us and blaming ourselves for our shortcomings. Why is it so hard to talk to most people about this? The world thrives on duality and black and white... it's sort of sad how discussing the grey areas can be almost a "radical" act.

    I think you raised an interesting question. Sorry the overweight comments maybe blur that more general question.

    I probably agree that human behavior and how it relates to tendencies in society is a hugely complex matter. I certainly don’t have the answers.

    Thinking about behavior as if it were a matter of individual responsibility is more practical in the short run maybe.
    For example if I would want to quit smoking; it could take decades before society has solved the issue. But if I find a way of motivating myself to quit that can happen within a year.

    At the same time we can work on making changes on a bigger scale like regulating commercials for cigarettes or prohibiting smoking in public areas and things like that. This approach is more meaningful in the long run.

  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    Regarding body issues, a good friend once told me: "You wouldn't worry so much about what others think of you if you realized how seldom they do." (Eleanor Roosevelt)

    I really hear what you're saying though. I will admit that I most definitely preach acceptance of all shapes and sizes, and yet, I'm pretty harsh with my own body.
    lobsterInvincible_summer
  • "You wouldn't worry so much about what others think of you if you realized how seldom they do." (Eleanor Roosevelt)

    I believe we can add to that, "And even when they do think of you, they seldom ever judge you so harshly as you imagine they would or so harshly as you judge yourself."

    Invincible_summerzombiegirllobsterperson
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    zenff said:



    Health risks are about statistics. In the discussion about smoking – some decades ago - people could argue they had an uncle who had smoked all his life and who died in his sleep when he was 93 years old or something like that. See? Smoking isn’t necessarily bad for your health!

    And we know that was rubbish. The chances of cancer and heart disease go up dramatically for smokers.
    It’s roughly the same for people with high fat percentages. They have significant higher health risks.

    I don’t care too much what people look like and I’m not as judgmental as I may seem. Obesity is a real health risk though. And the problem is growing worldwide. Denying it is as harmful as denying the health risks of smoking or alcohol abuse.
    Plus I for one know that I feel much better after losing the overweight.

    Exactly. I have been at least a little overweight most of my adult life, and significantly overweight for the past decade. And up until 3 years ago you could point to me and say there's a guy who is healthy despite his weight...other than typical colds and such, rarely sick. Then, all of a sudden, at age 60 it all caught up with me. One health condition after another that was directly related to being overweight. Ironically, the heart condition that suddenly was found was the one thing that was genetic, rather than being related to weight.

    Sooner or late, one way or another, it's gonna get you.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    considering the state of bullying in our world, I am not sure I agree that people *overall* seldom judge as harshly as we imagine. Most of us probably don't, though we probably used to. But spending time with young people, they definitely judge others incredibly harshly, and far more vocally than they used to. Now, this is most likely a projection of how they feel about themselves of course, but it still happens. I have a friend who has since moved to another country, but when she lived here, we used to go for walks often and I cannot tell you how many times people yelled out their windows things like "keep walking, fat ass!!!" at my friend, and these were not teenagers, but college aged people and some older than that. The number of people who are vocal, is pretty amazing, and when you consider that, the number of people who think that very thought but realize they shouldn't scream it out the window is much higher. Overall, I agree with the sentiment that for the most part, we worry unnecessarily about what others think about us. But when it comes to weight, it's different.

    Overweight and even obese people, can be healthier than their thinner counterparts. The point is, that many of us make a whole lot of assumptions and judgements about an obese or overweight person when we see them, which we have no business doing. We don't know if they are healthy or not. We don't know why they are overweight. We don't know if maybe they've already lost 50 pounds and are still working on it, or recently gained 100 pounds from being on steroids. But most of us right away assume when we see someone who is overweight, that they are eating too much fast food, that they sit on the couch and stuff themselves with pizza and 2 liter bottles of pop and so on. But it's not true. And while some people need a kick in the butt to get themselves motivated, it's pretty silly to assume you need to point out to an overweight person, that they are overweight.
    GlowMaryAnneInvincible_summer
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    karasti said:

    .. it's pretty silly to assume you need to point out to an overweight person, that they are overweight.

    Not when they are "a fat/size acceptance advocate and a HAES (Health At Every Size) activist"
    vinlynInvincible_summerFlorian
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    So you aren't a proponent on people being accepted for who they are, regardless of their size? Interesting.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @Karasti, that's not what fivebells is saying at all, and I think you know that.

    I dislike being around people who smoke. They smell. But some of my best friends smoke. When I was a kid, most of my relatives smoked. I still loved them. But I wish someone had convinced my grandfather that smoking was bad for him...before he died of lung cancer and emphysema. I wish someone had convinced my aunt that smoking was bad for her...before she died of a heart attack at age 40, which the doctor attributed to heavy smoking. My father wished he had been convinced by someone of the health hazards of heavy drinking and heavy smoking before he had his massive heart attack and stroke. I never minded a bit when colleagues said, "Vince, you really shouldn't eat so many donuts. It can't be good for your health."

    That's completely different than calling someone a "fat ass" or a "fat pig".

    Expressing legitimate concern for someone's health -- even when they don't want to hear it -- is, in my view, an act of friendship.
    zenffzombiegirlkarmablues
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    @vinlyn I was responding to zenff, not fivebells, his post was not there when I responded, we were typing at the same time.

    My grandma has been smoking for 60 years. She doesn't have cancer but she has COPD as a result. She has been told for a long, LONG time that it was bad for her. 10 other people telling her that and shaming her as a result (which is what most people end up doing even if they mean well) was not going to suddenly convince her.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Actually when I was typing my comment, my internet disconnected and when it came back online I simply posted my commented and hadn't seen fivebells until I refreshed the page.

    Anyhow, as far as genetics, we have more control over this than we want to believe. Lifestyle has a lot to do with why were are getting fatter as a country, but, even someone who isn't fat themselves, can produce a child prone to obesity based on what they eat. What we eat and everything we put into our bodies (including sounds and images) changes the cellular structure of our bodies. It's not simply that we move less and eat more. What we eat has a HUGE impact on our bodies and we're still told that things that aren't good for a lot of people are necessary for health.

    Offering support can be done with acceptance and love, absolutely. But most people can't treat that line carefully enough and end up saying things like "why are you order another bid mac meal? You realize that's just going to make you fatter, right?" and think they are helping. Even though for a lot (not all most certainly) of people, the right equation of proper food and movement will cause weight loss, the reasons why they eat how they do are not so easy to solve. A lot of things play into the reasons a person gains weight, and once they gain it it causes metabolic changes in the body that make it incredibly hard to lose it without some extensive training in nutrition (true nutrition not USDA nutrition) and mindfulness of the body during movement.

    If you want to help and support someone, offer to be their partner, don't just tell them what to do. Don't assume you know why someone is how they are and that they've done certain things to get them there. My one friend I mentioned earlier, was a track and field star in high school. She's obese, yes, but she's also very tall and very strong. She maintains regular health care and does not have any risk markers in any of her health numbers. Her cholesterol, blood pressure, blood glucose and other markers are all in healthy range. Carrying all that weight it hard on her joints though and she has worked with doctors on doctor approved weight loss plans to lose weight, and it hasn't happened beyond 10 pounds here and there. She is still working on it. I guarantee you she doesn't need people to point out to her that she's obese, or people to tell her she's unhealthy. Her and her doctors know better than you do. Another person I know is obese because he has lupus and has been on high doses of steroids since he was 8 years old. He cannot work, he cannot drive, he can hardly move because of his disease. So, go ahead and tell him that he's unhealthy because he's obese. Believe me, he knows he's not healthy but it's not because of the reasons you think.
    personInvincible_summer
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    karasti said:

    @vinlyn I was responding to zenff, not fivebells, his post was not there when I responded, we were typing at the same time.

    My grandma has been smoking for 60 years. She doesn't have cancer but she has COPD as a result. She has been told for a long, LONG time that it was bad for her. 10 other people telling her that and shaming her as a result (which is what most people end up doing even if they mean well) was not going to suddenly convince her.

    Nobody is talking about "shaming" someone.

  • zenffzenff Veteran
    karasti said:

    So you aren't a proponent on people being accepted for who they are, regardless of their size? Interesting.

    Did I say that?
    Not accepting people for who they are?
    I think I simply kicked in some open doors on the health risks of obesity.
    vinlyn
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I was referring to your comment directed at MaryAnne where you insinuated that clearly some people need to be told they are fat. No, they don't.

    @vinlyn a lot of people who mean well in simply telling their friends that they are fat, end up making them feel more ashamed than they were to start. Because when you start telling someone something they already know "hey, did you know you are overweight and it's bad for you" then it makes them feel that everyone thinks they are stupid on top of everything else.

    I'm not arguing that obesity isn't a problem. But it is no different than anything else. You cannot force someone to stop smoking just because they know it's bad. You cannot make someone stop drinking because it's bad. You cannot MAKE someone do something just because it's not good for them. If that was the case, no one would have unhealthy habits. It is not as simple as most people make it out to be, that if people would ONLY eat less and walk more, they'd lose weight. Once again, if that was the case, we wouldn't have the problem we do.
    personInvincible_summer
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    Nobody says obesity is a simple problem. But surely denial isn't the answer,
    personInvincible_summer
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @Karasti, I have yet to read a comment here where anyone suggested that "making them feel more ashamed" or making someone "feel that everyone thinks they are stupid" is the solution to the problem. I also have yet to see you offer any solutions.

    The thread is about "personal responsibility and compassion". It seems to me we ought to be encouraging people (including myself) to take personal responsibility for health issues they can control (for example, I can't control my heart condition...it's genetic; I can control my weight problem, that's making better choices). And it seems to me we ought to be compassionate in how we deal with people with weight issues. But doing nothing shows no compassion.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    All I'm saying is even someone with good intentions can have a bad result in terms of how it makes the other person feel. Pointing out to someone that they are unhealthy is a thing that would require an awful lot of skillfulness, something most people seem to lack. I'm not in any way saying anyone here would purposely shame someone and try to make them feel stupid. But sometimes it happens when we assume things about the other person that may not be true. Pretending we know what is best for someone else without knowing the extent of their causes and conditions doesn't show compassion, either.

    Also, for your information, I help run a weightloss/fitness/nutrition group for about 40 people on FB (most of whom are friends or acquiantences of mine) and I have plenty of conversations about exercise and nutrition with people who *ask* for it. I don't go around telling people I purport to know what is the best for them or what the cause of their condition is. I also don't feel a need, in EVERY SINGLE THREAD, to report to you about what I may or may not do to solve all the various problems in our world. Just because I don't talk about it, don't assume I don't do something. I don't owe you a resume of the things I do in my life just because I happen to be discussing an issue.
    MaryAnneperson
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    I've never met a fat person that didn't know it, lol. If anything, my problem is more how to respond to their own self-denigrating comments. You know how girls do... "Oh, that shirt looks so much better on you because I'm so chunky..." "If I lost a few more pounds I might be able to get into those shorts." "I don't want to go out to eat because I'm trying to lose weight so I'm not such a fatass."
    Off the cuff, it can be difficult to respond in a way that isn't rude or dishonest. But you know, if they were just searching for someone to say "No you're not!" that's irritating as well... but rather common...
    personriverflowInvincible_summerlobster
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited May 2013
    zenff said:

    karasti said:

    .. it's pretty silly to assume you need to point out to an overweight person, that they are overweight.

    Not when they are "a fat/size acceptance advocate and a HAES (Health At Every Size) activist"
    @zenff: That is a shitty and rude thing to say. Ahhh, but then again it's probably said with "compassion" and caring, right? Please.

    @vinlyn, you are free to self-loath, you are free to ridicule yourself and denigrate yourself because of your (perceived) weaknesses and overweight status.... however, you do NOT have the right, and it is NOT compassionate, nor caring, nor "showing concern" to monitor, assess or judge OTHERS the same way.
    Being a size 8 instead of a size 28 is not a "moral obligation" - for anyone. People are made in different sizes and shapes and with a good diet, moderate exercise, and general health-care ANYONE can be healthy- at size 8 OR size 28. If you don't believe that, that's fine. But keep in mind that you don't police the world according to " Vinlyn's rules and standards of Health".

  • zenffzenff Veteran
    @MaryAnne Yes I said it with good intentions.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    karasti said:

    ...Many people would whisper things like "I bet they don't carry that at Lane Giant" and so forth. They talk about overweight people as if they can't hear them and look at them as if they are invisible.

    God! People make comments! They make comments about everyone; about people with red hair, about people wearing glasses, about short people, about bald people, about old people, about guys with small dicks. Get over it!
    And simply face the fact that obesity is a health problem. Not a simple problem but a real problem.
    Don’t deny it, fight it.
    Invincible_summer
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