Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Due to my heart condition, over the past year-and-a-half I slowly worked myself up (or I should say back up) to walking more. I'm now up to 2.5 miles a day (when my back isn't bothering me). And as a result of me taking charge of my health in that respect, my heart condition bothers me only occasionally, rather than on an almost daily basis.
Very gradually I have improved my diet...although not enough. So this week I started trying something different about that. Every other day is going to be a "healthy foods only day". Since I was going to someone's house last evening for dinner, and knew they were serving less than ideal foods...fine...I went with the flow. Today, however, will be an all-healthy day: juice for breakfast, yogurt for lunch, stir-fried veggies for dinner.
The thing that really bothers me is when the discussion turns to weight (and among friends that's a pretty common topic), if I say I'm trying to lose weight, I can count on a response from someone along the lines of "Oh you're not fat" or "You don't really need to lose weight". And the last time someone said that to me, I responded with, "What the hell is wrong with you? I wear a size 38 pants. I'm fat. I'm 55 pounds overweight...and used to be 35 pounds heavier that this!" It's bad enough when someone makes excuses for themselves, and even worse when others make excuses for them. Too politically correct to be honest...an American curse.
...Many people would whisper things like "I bet they don't carry that at Lane Giant" and so forth. They talk about overweight people as if they can't hear them and look at them as if they are invisible.
God! People make comments! They make comments about everyone; about people with red hair, about people wearing glasses, about short people, about bald people, about old people, about guys with small dicks. Get over it! And simply face the fact that obesity is a health problem. Not a simple problem but a real problem. Don’t deny it, fight it.
Wow. Speak for yourself. Project much?
0
zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
@karasti That still doesn't negate the fact that it's difficult as a friend to know how to respond in a way that isn't shitty. I usually say something like, "Eh, fuck em. Who cares what other people think?" But of course.. they do... I do too (unfortunately).
Shorts are a good topic. I am thin, this I know, but one of my first boyfriends when I was in 8th grade used to call me thunderthighs and to this day, I find it difficult to wear shorts. I feel that despite being thin, my thighs are disproportionately thick compared to my hips (I have really slender hips). As a result of my hatred, my thighs became the target of my self injury, so now I have a lot of scars that also show should I choose to wear shorts. This is another thing that society doesn't deal too well with. Sometimes I say 'fuck em' and sometimes I just hide. I think most girls have that one thing that they dislike about themselves... or several... and while I do believe that Eleanor Roosevelt is right that MOST people don't think about you as much as you think, of course there are the catty bitches that prove contrary. Even if you're the most perfect woman, some girls will probably say, "Look at that spray tan, bottle blonde pretending she's all perfect and shit." Lol... there's always something and that's why I find Eleanor's quote helpful. Part of it is just accepting that... well... haters gonna hate.
Side note: Talking about your friend made me think of Fat Amy from the movie Pitch Perfect... dunno if you've seen it or not, but I absolutely adore Rebel Wilson. Fat Amy is an example of taking a defense mechanism and turning it into something positive.
Fat Amy and her in-yer-face self confidence REALLY made that movie worth watching.... Rebel Wilson is a new 'hero' of mine! Liked her from the minute I saw her in Bridesmaids (and she's funny too!)
@zenff so what? Just because people do it doesn't make it ok. It hurts the feelings of everyone. It's funny, we're all about accepting people for who they are and treasuring their self-worth unless they are fat. It's the last frontier as far as acceptably bullying someone, because so many people they are within their right to say whatever they want about someone else. I don't have to get over it and accept it as ok, because it isn't.
2
zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
Fat Amy and her in-yer-face self confidence REALLY made that movie worth watching.... Rebel Wilson is a new 'hero' of mine! Liked her from the minute I saw her in Bridesmaids (and she's funny too!)
Same here! She's the only reason I watched Pitch Perfect in the first place.
@zenff so what? Just because people do it doesn't make it ok. It hurts the feelings of everyone. It's funny, we're all about accepting people for who they are and treasuring their self-worth unless they are fat. It's the last frontier as far as acceptably bullying someone, because so many people they are within their right to say whatever they want about someone else. I don't have to get over it and accept it as ok, because it isn't.
I haven't seen it, I will have to look it up, thanks! @zombiegirl I didn't mean to ignore that part of your post, about how to react. I don't know how to react either in any such situation so I respond much the same as you do. I just wanted to point out that those I do know don't do it to get a reassurance that they aren't fat.
Did you (any of you) watch that thing Dove did that is on youtube about women and how they see themselves? It was pretty interesting, and sad.
@zenff so what? Just because people do it doesn't make it ok. It hurts the feelings of everyone. It's funny, we're all about accepting people for who they are and treasuring their self-worth unless they are fat. It's the last frontier as far as acceptably bullying someone, because so many people they are within their right to say whatever they want about someone else. I don't have to get over it and accept it as ok, because it isn't.
OK, don't grow up then.
LOL As Dr Seuss says, "adults are just obsolete children, and the hell with them."
If refusing to accept that people bully others makes me not grown up, then I guess I am glad for that.
@zenff so what? Just because people do it doesn't make it ok. It hurts the feelings of everyone. It's funny, we're all about accepting people for who they are and treasuring their self-worth unless they are fat. It's the last frontier as far as acceptably bullying someone, because so many people they are within their right to say whatever they want about someone else. I don't have to get over it and accept it as ok, because it isn't.
OK, don't grow up then.
Bullying is the opposite of growing up. It is stagnation -keeps you juvenile -and stunts moral and spiritual growth.
I think those who are overweight, fat, and even obese get a bad rap. I even wrote a blog inspired by this thread recently. Considering the food we eat nowdays isn't really food and is nothing but franken-food, that contributes to the ever growing obesity epidemic *all around the world now*, I think we are getting angry at the wrong people. These addictive foods have little to do with will power and a lot to do with multi-million dollar companies becoming rich off of our ignorance when it comes to real food vs. "drug" food.
Anyway, that's a rant for another time, but what I want to say is, I think if you eat sensibly and exercise a bit every day, you shouldn't have such self-loathing nor should you judge someone else who is a bit heavier than you. Our bodies are going to naturally adjust to the weight they're meant to if we take proper care of ourselves. So I'm not advocating being 5'2" and 300lbs. Obviously that is extremely unhealthy and shows that someone is eating too much and/or moving around too little. And just because that person is not "unhealthy" *YET* when compared to a skinny person, give them 10-20 more years. I guarantee you they will develop Type II Diabetes and other wonderful health problems in due time.
So in short, I think it's compassionate to try to help someone who has a weight problem by encouraging them and teaching them how to live like you're living (assuming you are healthy yourself), but making fun of them and judging them never helps. Saying, "Look at me! I have will power! I'm thin and in shape!" is just arrogant and isn't helping anyone out but you and your ego. It shows a lack of empathy and an abundance of ignorance, since you have no idea what it's like to be inside their body.
It's related to the discussion concerning compassion and if it's the "compassionate thing to do..." to not allow fat people to be accepted or to accept themselves... you know- "for their own good." The thread took this turn when someone suggested it was a good thing to let fat people know that they NEED to lose weight, they NEED to be healthy, etc... because, after all, it's expected of them to feel shame and disgust about being fat; and fat people are never healthy (they claim) ... It relates because it's all about judgement, criticizing, bullying others (all based on how someone LOOKS), while claiming it's being "compassionate"...
This woman in the video explains what that's like from the other side of the scale, so to speak. And she brings up some relevant stats and studies as well.
The thread took this turn when someone suggested it was a good thing to let fat people know that they NEED to lose weight, they NEED to be healthy, etc... because, after all, it's expected of them to feel shame and disgust about being fat; and fat people are never healthy (they claim) ...
I don't think people with weight problems should be bullied or looked down upon at all. But I also don't think it's wise to pretend that being grossly overweight is a good thing, either. Like I said, you may be in your 20's now and "fit" and "healthy", but stay at that weight for another 20 years or so (and hopefully not gain any more) and you're heading for a health disaster. That's not coming from a judgmental place. That's coming from a place of concern (i.e. compassion).
So how come when we say we have concern over someone's weight, we're being bullies, but when we have concern over someone doing drugs or smoking or having reckless sex (etc.), that we're showing compassion for their welfare? Why is it okay to tell a smoker "That pack will kill ya," but saying to someone 300+ lbs., "You should stop drinking so much soda" that you're trying to take away their rights as a consumer (a'la Mayor Bloomberg in NYC)?
I'm not saying that I disagree with you. Making fun of fat people is the last acceptable form of bigotry in this world, and I think it's disgusting. Don't even get me started on that topic. Being someone who has struggled with weight all her life, I can tell you I'm the first one to become upset when I see this happen. (When I tell people I'm vegan they look at me like I should be an emaciated waif... it's quite funny to see their reactions when I go, "No, thank you, I'm vegan." Maybe if I was a frugivore... but I like my teeth too much to go down that route.) But, I still don't think that being fat is "okay." It just isn't. There are too many hidden health risks-- forget about the social and emotional ramifications! (P.S. I don't seem to find Golda's "medical evidence" in your video all that convincing, sorry to say.)
A little story... last week I went into a restaurant to get a quick bite to eat. While waiting for my order, I saw this young girl... she must have been literally 350+ pounds... about 5'6" or so. She was with her sister (maybe mother?) who was just over 5' tall and was petite and "perfect" looking. I watched this poor young girl, who was wearing SpongeBob Squarepants pajama bottoms (I fear it was because she perhaps couldn't find comfortable sweat pants to fit her ) and, what must have been, an XXXL sweat shirt which still fit her quite snug, telling the cashier her order. I listened to her as she ordered an enormous amount of food. We're talking, food enough for at least 4-5 people. Now, to be fair, I don't know if that food was just for her, or for some party, or what. But considering her sister(?) ordered first, and then this girl did, I tend to think it was just food for just her consumption.
But then what really broke my heart was when she wanted to order cheese fries but didn't have enough money with her. So she asked her sister if she had any money to borrow. Since she didn't, the girl said, "Wait, I will go into the car and see if I have any change in there." As she walked out I saw her holding one of those huge 72 oz-type plastic soda cups with a bunch of change in it.
Now, I want to preface this again with the fact that I am not skinny. I don't think I've ever been thin as I'd like to be. And even while watching this girl with her food, I felt extremely hypocritical thinking this since I'm currently trying to drop some weight I've gained over the years, but, I felt really bad for her. I was not thinking she was less of a human being than me, nor was I laughing at her body's condition. No. I felt real sadness for her. It broke my heart to see a young girl that obese, searching for change in her car like a crack addict would for drug money. I wanted to grab her, hug her, and tell her, "Please... please please please don't do this to yourself. Stop eating the greasy, fatty, salty foods with little-to-no nutritional value. You're worth more than that." And I also wanted to take her sister aside and ask her, "Do you know you're enabling her to suffer in this body of hers?" Not that we can blame the sister, but obviously this person was a family member or friend of sort whom this girl relied upon. Sure, the girl may throw a fit and punch some walls because you're not allowing her to eat the food she desires, but how are you going to feel when you're sitting in the hospital with her after her first heart attack at 25 years old?
So, my point here is, I'm sorry, but when I see people that big, you can't tell me that they're happy. You cannot convince me that they have an acceptable quality of life. If not from society beating them up constantly telling them they're worthless because of their addiction (yes, I truly believe it's due to addiction to salt, fat, and sugar), then simply from feeling like they're a prisoner in their own body. So you cannot tell that that young female in that restaurant is truly "happy" being that large. People her size and larger (and even smaller) suffer on all accounts, not just physically-- forget about the world snickering at her behind her back or judging her as a person unjustly.
Therefore I see no problem with some compassionate coaching... some friendly encouragement... imparting some knowledge about nutrition and exercise. But instead, sadly, we are taught as a society to bully and shame fat people into becoming skinner, making them sometimes go in the exact opposite direction of what we think they should do (or we're taught to go, "Oh, no, you're fine just the way you are. Here, eat some potato chips."). So why do we remain so cruel and judgmental? Because we're taught to. Because it makes rich people even richer. How so? Well, pharmaceutical companies get richer because of fat people getting sick and needing medication, diet industries get rich because of fat people thinking they have no will power and try countless fad diet after fad diet, the medical field (including psychiatry) get richer because of fat people who need lap band surgery and heart surgery and back surgery and oh the list goes on and on, and Hollywood gets richer because of fat people since the skinner and more perfect they appear on TV and in (Photoshopped) magazines the more we hate ourselves and turn to food for comfort.
I truly feel for fat people. I feel compassion for them because I feel compassion for myself. I think fast food is the devil, I think more people should go veg*n (read The China Study), and I definitely think that the more "raw" your diet is in terms of fresh fruits and vegetables, the better you will feel and lighter you'll be. Moderate exercise is great; walking is the best thing, next to cycling and yoga. Be kind to everyone you meet, because you don't know the battle they're facing.
@MaryAnne, Thanks for the pointer. I read the study she cited. Its main flaw is its focus on young people (60% of participants were under 45.) For a mortality study related to obesity, that is a serious confounding factor, as most obesity-related disease is also age-related, because only a relatively small fraction of the study was in the high-risk age group.
If they repeated the study with the 45-64 and 64-and-older groups broken out, that would have been more interesting, but they probably didn't have the statistical power for that. Given the weaknesses with the study which they "thoughtfully" enumerate in the discussion, they probably thought of the issue I'm raising, tried the age-specific analyses, and concluded that it wouldn't have made a publishable paper. It's also disturbing that they didn't include enough information for an interested reader to repeat their analysis. (I have nothing personal against the authors or their claim, it's just that I used to work in a related field, and I know just how ugly it gets.)
Anyway, with such a large fraction of young people in the study, the fact that healthy habits have a bigger impact on mortality than obesity is not that surprising. @vinlyn's story is typical: it catches up with you as you age.
Definitely agree that "compassionately" pointing out someone's mistakes when actually you're primarily motivated to make them uncomfortable is harmful and counterproductive (except to your own enjoyment.)
However, I think the other stuff in the video (I watched up to when she showed the graph) this comes back to the question in the OP. You know that if you're fat you'll experience ostracism, you know that if you eat less you'll lose weight, you know you're implicitly making a choice about this every time you decide whether, what and how much to eat. The ostracism is cruel, but it doesn't change where your responsibility for the situation lies. You can't change the ostracism, but you can change your lifestyle.
So there is a lot of work involved. It's not going to be hard all the time, but there are times when you really do have to go against what you'd like to do, or beyond the limits of your comfort zone. This willingness to push yourself beyond your comfort zone is what's going to make all the difference. But to do that, you need to realize that you have what it takes. Often we keep ourselves back or hold ourselves back because we have a very limited notion of what we're capable of. This is where low self-esteem or an unskillful sense of shame can be debilitating. But as with so many other things, there's a skillful sense of shame and an unskillful sense of shame. Unskillful shame is what keeps you where you are: the idea that "I can't get any better than I am; I'm pretty hopeless."
That kind of shame the Buddha never encouraged. What he did encourage is your willingness to look at what you've been doing to and see where it's been unskillful. When you do this, you are passing judgment. But you're passing judgment on your actions, not on yourself. Your intentions in the past may have been unskillful, or the actions may have been unskillful, but you're not stuck there. Just because you've had unskillful intentions doesn't mean that you're always going to have unskillful intentions. You can change your mind. You can change your habits.
The skillful or healthy sense of shame comes in here and says, "What I did in the past is nothing to be proud of, but I don't have to repeat that mistake." This is what your powers of judgment are good for. We tend to think of judgment as what a judge does in a courtroom, passing a final verdict on people, either setting them free or sending them off to jail. The Buddha, however, is not talking about final judgment of that sort. What he advises is more like a craftsman judging a work in progress: "How is it going? What can be changed? If it's not going well, what can I do to improve it?" That kind of judgment is healthy. It's necessary, because people with no sense of shame, no sense of judgment, are dangerous to themselves and to the people around them because they refuse to correct their mistakes.
So learn how to use your sense of shame in a skillful way, to use your sense of judgment in a skillful way, and be willing to push yourself beyond your comfort level to find resources that you haven't yet tapped. After all, we all have the potential for awakening. The qualities that the Buddha developed on the night of his awakening, or leading up to his awakening, are qualities that we all have in a potential form: mindfulness and alertness; heedfulness, ardency, and resolution. These things can be developed. If we think that we're here just to accept the way we are, we're not accepting the fact that we could develop these qualities.
I'll respond with why it's not all right to be fat...a personal story.
I guess I'm one of those people who, though I have always been a bit overweight throughout my adult life, really gained weight about 15 years ago when twice in one year I fell and broke first a shoulder and then an elbow. They were bad breaks and required me to do no exercise for about 5 months. Boy did I gain. I should weight about 160, had been up to about 185, but eventually got all the way up to 260. Nevertheless, with the exception of a reasonable level of high blood pressure, I remained seemingly healthy. Until the last 3 years, when it all began catching up with me.
First it was the high blood pressure, which during periods of high stress would sky rocket, and I ended up in urgent care a half dozen times. Then, when I moved to Colorado, the elevation made it sky rocket off and on for nearly a year, until I finally got it under control. But no matter what the immediate reason for a flare-up, every doctor I ever saw said the underlying cause was being overweight.
Then it was the heart problem, which is genetic. So not related. Right? Well, no, my general practitioner and cardiologist both say it is showing up sooner than it might have due to my weight, and it would be easier to control if I were not overweight.
Then it was sleep apnea. Not only caused by my weight, but the severity due to my weight. So I sleep with a CPAP machine with a low dose of supplemental oxygen.
More recently, it's been the onset of gastrointestinal reflux, which is made considerably worse due to weight. Thus, more medications.
And, right now I'm delaying a kidney procedure (unrelated to being fat) because my lower back is so bad...exacerbated by being fat.
When I think back of the very large Lynch family, the more average or skinny the relative was, the more apt they were to live into the 80s. None of the oeverweight ones lived past their mid-60s or very early 70s. Perhaps a coincidence. But: "According to the National Center for Health Statistics, the risk of an early death goes up as weight increases. The NIH found even a 10- to 20-pound weight gain can increases the threat of premature death, especially in adults between the ages of 30 and 64. People with a BMI index higher than 30 had a 50 percent to 100 percent greater risk of early mortality." (eHowHealth).
A new trend seems to be that no matter what the medical affliction, you can also say your healthy. For example, a lot of gay men with HIV infection will say they are "poz and healthy". Just like we have so many overweight people saying we are fat but healthy. For a while...perhaps. But in the long run...no for most people.
Now this has nothing to do with how people who are fat should be treated by others. I don't care if you are fat or skinny, bald or with flowing golden locks, tall or short, ugly or handsome, GT or MMR, Nordic or Latino, a male who lectures or a female who nags, gay or straight, or any other classification you can think of for people. You ought to be treated with respect.
It was very interesting living in Thailand. The Thais had a very different perspective on how to start a conversation with a foreigner, which they saw as being a polite thing do. A stranger stepping into an elevator might say, "Hello, you are fat" (or tall, or short, etc.). Or ask, "How much to earn each year?" or "How much did your shirt cost?" There was never any judgement to the comment, just a statement of fact. Not saying that's the way it should be here, but just saying we shouldn't be afraid of reality, either.
I read every word of your post, carefully, and in the gentlest of tones. I know that's how you meant it. From reading your words I know you are a caring and sincere person expressing their thoughts on a very complex and controversial topic. I feel your sympathy and empathy- honestly, I really really do. (unlike a few others involved in this topic), and I appreciate it greatly.
BUT... (you knew there was a 'but' coming, didn't you?) ... just like the "but..." disclaimer I'm typing out now about your post, you have also inserted a few "but..." disclaimers in yours. If they weren't in your post, it would have been spot-on deliciously perfect. But unfortunately, they were there. :-(
Oh, I know - they are extremely hard to let go of. They're like religious beliefs- no matter how many times people tell you; "[your belief system] isn't real..." or "You have no proof of God/heaven/hell..." etc., you're going to hold onto your beliefs. This is how many -if not most- of us cling to the myths and stereotypes about others, until one day we finally realize it's sooooo much better for everyone involved if we just. let. them. go.
Here's one to let go of: someone at 300 lbs. just CAN'T be happy- or healthy.
Yes, they can. Actually, there would probably be quite a few more fat and happy people if society and discrimination didn't make their lives a living hell 24/7. I know of MANY women 5'2" - 5'9" who tip the scales at down right "obese" - 250, 285, 310, 340 pounds, who are happy people; with jobs, friends, loving families and relationships, but most importantly -- they are NO LESS HEALTHY than any average size person in their age range. Honest.
I'm really not making that up. I am one of them: BP; normal. Cholesterol; 170 w/excellent good-to-bad ratio. Glucose; normal. Triglycerides; normal. Liver, kidney, lung functions; all normal. I don't smoke, I rarely drink, and I don't do hard drugs. Those along with heredity/genes, are the key elements to evaluating Health, or predicting future health.
My only health issues at nearly 57 yrs old are; arthritis (hereditary and rampant in my family amongst fat AND thin- and younger); and a nearly dead thyroid for the last 23 years (on meds, that really don't help at all). The arthritis (shoulders, wrists and knees) keeps me from being as active as I wish I could be; but I do what I can (water aerobics and stretching).
On a scale of 1 - 10 with 10 being the absolute most 'healthy' diet one could imagine (if there IS such a thing), I would put my diet at a firm 7.5 -- Could it be better? Of course it could be... but why? I eat very little red meat, NO SODA- EVER, NO Sweetened DRINKS/JUICES- EVER. Dessert is a once or twice a week event- maybe. I eat 'fast food' MAYBE twice a month - if I'm rushed for time and busy doing other things. I don't eat a lot of pre-packaged foods; some, but not a lot. I'm a good cook, and an even better baker. Happily married to the same man for 37 years, (and he's 6" tall about 180 lbs.)
I have a strong educational/training background in the medical field as a certified EKG tech and lab tech (& phlebotomy). I have worked with doctors, in hospital ERs and then with veterinarians. I have 2 college degrees, the latest one in psychology and my GPA was 4.0. My IQ has consistently checked at 136 - 138, so I'm not exactly a slow learner...
So what is the problem? Well, if a lot of people can take a look at me crossing the street in front of their car, or walking along the boardwalk on a beautiful day, eating a soft serve ice cream cone, and say to themselves (or out loud to others): "Oh brother! Look at THAT fat pig! Holy shit lady, you don't NEED that ice cream- you two ton Tony!" Or "Someone needs to tell that dumb cow that ice cream is BAD for her, and she shouldn't eat it! She doesn't deserve to eat like thin people eat!" THAT is the problem, IMO.
Or if I'm walking with my husband (who I admit is still pretty handsome for an ol' coot) and they wonder "What the hell does he see in HER?" Or "Imagine sleeping with THAT sow!?" Why is that OK? Why are those assumptions and degradations about me acceptable? Why should anyone not related to me feel entitled to lecture me or warn me about my "health"? Why is it expected that fat people need to explain themselves to strangers? Do we have some sort of a "moral obligation" to do so? Who made that rule?
I know you said very clearly that you would NEVER say those things yourself, @sillyputty, and I believe you. But then you did have that "but..." disclaimer in there about 300 lb people never being happy- or healthy. So without any malice or anger, I just explained why you should let that one go.... We should let ALL those stereotypes and assumptions go, and just accept the diversity of people just as they are. That is what true "compassion" really is.
Well, @MaryAnne, if you are truly happy and healthy at 120 or 170 or 300 pounds, so be it. And maybe it's wrong of me to think that there aren't happy morbidly obese people out there either. I remember watching this video on underground sensation Donna Simpson (posted below). In it she swears that she's fit as fiddle and loves being morbidly obese. I guess 600 pound morbidly obese people can be just as happy as 300 pound people as 170 pound people as 120 pound people as well as people who weigh under 100 pounds and suffer from anorexia. :-/
I don't disagree that there are problems with being obese. I don't disagree that a friend or family member can skillfully support and encourage someone to maintain a healthier lifestyle. I just disagree that everyone and their uncle feels the need to judge someone and make a whole lot of assumptions about them purely based on sight and then tell them how to live. I realize that is not what people here (mostly) are advocating, but it is how our society largely is. To keep things fair, I am no more likely to walk up to a smoker and tell them they are unhealthy or to randomly tell someone that they eat too many eggs and not enough greens. If the topic comes up, I will talk about what research I know about and my own diet and how it makes me feel. If someone can use the information, great. But I'm not going to attempt to force them to.
Not related to weight, but I can tell you that having children with various educational, social and behavioral issues that being judged when people don't know what is going on, really sucks. As a mom of a kid who routinely yet unpredictably had meltdowns at the store (I'm not talking normal tantrums, I can't even tell you how many times i had to leave stores or restaurants) and the looks and comments people make, not only about you as a clearly horrible parent for allowing a child to behave that way, but about your child are quite hurtful. As a result I try not to cause other people to feel the same way when I don't know their circumstances. That is the part of the whole societal reaction to fat people that bothers me. People assume a LOT of things about a fat person when they see them on the street, not knowing a thing about them, and feel their perception and assumption is enough to tell that person how to live and make rude comments about them. It's not ok. Pointing out to someone (even if you are close to them) that they are fat, is unnecessary. Saying something like "Hey, you want to go for a walk and a frozen yogurt instead of going to the movie tonight?" would be a helpful and supportive suggestion. Saying "hey, you are way overweight, why don't you drink less soda" is more judgemental than helpful and supportive. Just like when people would see me in the store with my child and say "why doesn't your kid know how to behave?" instead of simply offering to hold the door while I carry my 75 pound 7 year old child out the door screaming and kicking, myself in tears because I know what he is going through is horrible and yet people stand there judging him and me without knowing what they are even judging.
Ok, @sillyputty, we'll use 600 lb Donna Simpson as the poster child for ALL fat or obese people if you agree to use either of the women below to represent ALL thin people. Not fair? Why not, if we're going to use the extreme end of fatness, (to prove unhealthiness) we should use the extreme end of the thinness (to prove healthiness).
Come on... let's keep it on the curve and away from the extremes. Medically, anyone who is 25% over their "ideal weight" is considered Obese. So if someone should weigh 150 lbs - according to the arbitrary BS weight chart- but instead weighs 187.5 they are considered 'obese'. Besides, you are the one who brought up the "300 lb" weight as a discussion point, not me.
Does it really matter to you - personally - if Donna considers herself healthy and happy? How do you know she's lying? Is she dead now? Did her doctor give another story? Or... wait a minute... is this the woman who purposely stuffs herself to keep gaining weight because she gets $$ from fat fetish freaks online? If that is the same person... PLEASE... let's not even go there as an example. Really??
Thanks for taking the bait, @MaryAnne. So now, I will ask you: Where, exactly, does one draw the line? A 600 pound woman is considered to be a ridiculous example to you, but a 300 pound woman isn't?
We have weight and height charts for a reason. There are thousands upon thousands of medical journals and studies done on fat/obese people for a reason. (PS Those two pictures are considered too thin and anorexic due to those weight/height charts that you keep insisting are ridiculously off-base and useless for today's average person.)
For someone so "happy" with their weight, you tend to come off rather... angry... with this topic, MaryAnne. I dunno, but I think if I were happy I would just be like "oh well" and go on with my life, not caring what anyone else thought. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting it, but it seems that way to me at least.
PS Donna Simpson has been losing weight since 2011 due to various reasons, including wanting to be healthy for her children and to be happy again.
Ok, @sillyputty, we'll use 600 lb Donna Simpson as the poster child for ALL fat or obese people if you agree to use either of the women below to represent ALL thin people. Not fair? Why not, if we're going to use the extreme end of fatness, (to prove unhealthiness) we should use the extreme end of the thinness (to prove healthiness).
Come on... let's keep it on the curve and away from the extremes. Medically, anyone who is 25% over their "ideal weight" is considered Obese. So if someone should weigh 150 lbs - according to the arbitrary BS weight chart- but instead weighs 187.5 they are considered 'obese'. Besides, you are the one who brought up the "300 lb" weight as a discussion point, not me.
Does it really matter to you - personally - if Donna considers herself healthy and happy? How do you know she's lying? Is she dead now? Did her doctor give another story? Or... wait a minute... is this the woman who purposely stuffs herself to keep gaining weight because she gets $$ from fat fetish freaks online? If that is the same person... PLEASE... let's not even go there as an example. Really??
I'm not angry at all. And I suspected the bait. I'm up for some discussion...
So, Where do 'we' draw the line? Perfect question. Here's my answer: WHY do 'we' have to draw a line? Who are 'we' to draw a line and expect others to toe it? I don't get it. Really. Why is there this need to filter people into "acceptable" and "unacceptable"? Who sets the criteria? You? Me? Society?
Why do you (figuratively speaking 'you') think you can set those perimeters? I always thought we were all the boss of our OWN underpants... but apparently not. Some people (fat people) have others to answer to. Hmm... I didn't know that. Must have missed that memo.
Well OK. I know when I'm beaten. You win. You have every right to assess, judge, and disregard anyone you deem beneath acceptable visual standards. Got it. And I promise I'm still not angry. I've been fat and shit on by plenty of "well meaning" and "compassionate" people in my lifetime to get angry over a discussion such as this. (I'm not accusing you of doing that, just explaining my prior experiences). The only thing a little bit surprising about this particular discussion today is the fact it's taking place on a Buddhist forum. I just sort of, almost, expected it to go differently. ::: shrugs::: Sometimes I'm wrong.
I don't disagree that there are problems with being obese. I don't disagree that a friend or family member can skillfully support and encourage someone to maintain a healthier lifestyle. I just disagree that everyone and their uncle feels the need to judge someone and make a whole lot of assumptions about them purely based on sight and then tell them how to live. I realize that is not what people here (mostly) are advocating, but it is how our society largely is.
But, here's my thing... why is it seen as a judgement instead of compassion?
I brought this up before but no one commented on it. Why can't you be compassionate towards a person in the sense that you see them without judgements, BUT DUE TO BASIC LOGIC AND SCIENTIFIC DATA worry for their health and want to help them? I don't see wanting someone to be healthy and care about their life as being hateful towards fat people. I honestly don't. If there's no name calling, no snide remarks and laughter, no assumptions of negative traits, then why is that a bad thing? Assuming there is a health risk is NOT a NEGATIVE judgement/assumption-- it is a NEUTRAL assumption. Thinking that is not positive or negative. It just is what it is. Just like seeing someone snorting coke, you're going to think, "Wow... I hope he doesn't 'OD and kill himself" or "I hope he doesn't get into trouble with the law" or "I hope his heart doesn't give out on him one day from all that drug abuse." It is said out of compassion. Out of concern. No one is calling the man a worthless scumbag druggie. No. They are saying neutral statements that MAY OR MAY NOT eventually transpire.
Again, wanting to see someone lose weight is based on logic and scientific data. Thinking someone might have a heart attack due to the fat surrounding their heart both internally and externally is not the same as saying, "I think you're a bad person for being fat!" No! It's saying that, "I care about your health and want you to live a long, happy life." Is it saying that alllllllllll fat people will have heart attacks? No! But it is saying that the chance of it happening is much, much greater for fat/obese people, and thus that's why there is so much concern for them. There is no judgement in that at all.
Also, as for the "happy" part, of course it is a normal assumption to think that fat/obese people may not be as happy as they could be. If you weighed (again) 300lbs. and were 5'2", would you honestly say to yourself, "I am happy at 300lbs. I never want to be skinny. I could care less if I weighed 120lbs. Even if someone had a magic wand and made me thin, I would not accept. Nope! I love this added weight and that's that!"
If you could honestly say that, then yes, you are quite happy. But if there is even the slightest twinge of "Oh, I would love to weigh 120lbs... it would be a dream come true" then you truly are not happy and not being authentic with yourself. The end. Case closed.
What people look like and how they feel about it is not the point (not my point anyway). A typical boxer or American-Football player would look fantastic I suppose and feel great about it too. But I think they’d better take the risk on CTE seriously. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy I don’t judge them, I don’t bully them, I just think they are taking an unnecessary health-risk. They are free to do so, but they should take that risk into account.
Obesity has health risks too. People who are obese in middle age are at almost four times greater risk of developing dementias such as Alzheimer's disease in later life than people of normal weight, according to a recent study.
Exactly how excess weight can influence the degradation of the brain is not certain, but Xu said there could many possible mechanisms. "Higher body fat is associated with diabetes and vascular diseases, which are related to dementia risk," she said. In addition, fatty tissue is the largest hormone-producing organ in the body and it can produce inflammatory molecules which may affect cognitive functioning or the process of neurodegeneration. Sorensen said that further research was needed to find the links between being overweight and dementia. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/02/obese-more-likely-to-develop-alzheimers-disease
I don’t judge obese people, I don’t bully them, I just think obesity is a time bomb for people’s health and wellbeing. People are free to live the way they want to live their life, but I think they should take the health risks into account.
Yes, I know, it's quite insightful, eh? I'm assuming that's what you mean because I don't see the need for any shock and awe response.
Anyway, one last thought I want to run by you, @MaryAnne, and anyone else who cares to chime in....
What about children? Do you think it's acceptable that so many young children today are considered obese? Wasn't that way 3 decades ago. So is it normal? Are we to go with the flow and allow them to overeat whatever they want, be sick, develop diabetes among other health conditions, and be sad because everyone calls them "fat" and refuses to be their friend at school? (And, yes, parents are to blame up to a certain age for their child's weight.)
Oh, wait... you mean... you mean you wouldn't want your child to go through all that physical and emotional torture, eh? You want your child to be at a healthy, normal weight, active, eat healthy, happy and be socially accepted? :eek: So why is it okay that we, as adults, allow ourselves to stay fat/obese, but when it comes to our children we want "only the best" for them?
People are free to live the way they want to live their life, but I think they should take the health risks into account.
Bingo.
Me? I really don't care if you're fat, skinny, purple, orange, male, female, whatever. However, I do care enough to get in someone's face and tell them that there are health risks involved with their actions/behaviors. If no one else cared enough in your (general "your"-- not directed at anyone on this board) life to tell you this, then I feel bad for you. Because you deserve to be around people who genuinely care about you and your health and want to see you thrive. It's' called tough love. Enabling people to do unhealthy things is not compassion, it is not love, it is not heroic. This goes for everything-- not just diet and exercise.
ETA: Oh, look. How apropos. An article just posted on CNN's main page about losing weight in order to gain health and happiness:
I wouldn't tell someone to quit smoking. That's their business. But it's a complex issue. And that's part of my personality. When my brother was smoking my dad would ask him every time he saw him if he quit. And we would tell my brother that his (dad's) mother and father both died from heart and lung disease at an early age.
But my personality is live and let live (or die). I bought my ex gf beer and cigarettes every day. She's straightened around since I left. I guess I was an enabler though that is not what I had intended. When I was left I had many phone conversations with her and my mom overheard and said "wow you are wise", because I gave supportive good advice. So tough love is not my specialty, but supportive is good.
Well "telling" someone something and "tough love" doesn't mean jamming it down their throat, either. At least that's not what I would do or how I see them defined as. I'm simply talking about telling somebody something once when you see them in a moment of frustration or pain. Tough love isn't "nagging" the person to death with your thoughts of what's right or wrong. If it was that, it wouldn't have the world "love" in there. Tough love is when you may very well have to tell someone something that they just do NOT want to hear, but they absolutely 110% need to hear. "Hey, Joe, you have lung cancer now. Do you really think smoking is a good idea anymore?" I remember seeing a woman who had a tracheotomy smoking a cigarette through it. You obviously can't tell her not to smoke. I'm sure someone already told her dozens of times not to. She is at the point of just not caring one iota about her health or her life. But, still, knowing this, would you rather be the person who told her, "Don't do it-- it's killing you" or the person who gives her the $10 to buy the cigarettes and helps her down the path of destruction so *YOU* don't feel bad? (P.S. You can still demonstrate "supportive love" in either instance, really. But "supportive" in what sense?)
And, yes, while on that topic, that supportive kind of love is wonderful. Not saying that isn't *the best* option in all situations. But the day you have a child who is doing something harmful to themselves, you come back and tell me whether or not you tried to rely on that "tough love" at all along with your supportive love. It's nice to lend an ear and be empathetic, of course. But if you see someone about to jump off a bridge, are you just going to stand there and let them jump and go "Oh well, live and let live... at least I listened to them before they jumped," or are you going to try to take them by the hand and keep them from killing themselves, and thus be put in the position of looking like "the bad guy" or "the guy who doesn't understand my pain" or "the guy who should have kept his nose out of my business?" To me? Squashing your ego as well as your need to feel reciprocal love is more important than being "liked" by a person who needs your help.
I wouldn't tell someone to quit smoking. That's their business. But it's a complex issue. And that's part of my personality. When my brother was smoking my dad would ask him every time he saw him if he quit. And we would tell my brother that his (dad's) mother and father both died from heart and lung disease at an early age.
But my personality is live and let live (or die). I bought my ex gf beer and cigarettes every day. She's straightened around since I left. I guess I was an enabler though that is not what I had intended. When I was left I had many phone conversations with her and my mom overheard and said "wow you are wise", because I gave supportive good advice. So tough love is not my specialty, but supportive is good.
We shouldn't feel the need to have our bodies approved by Abercrombie & Fitch to feel good about ourselves... but is it unskillful to actually say this to someone?
Women who have hairy legs scare me. I have been brainwashed.
Oriental people are having their eyes modified to appear wider. Lips are pumped, stomachs depumped, faces pumped with toxins, wrinkles peeled with acid. Dark skinned people are chemically bleaching skin, light coloured people are ODing on carotene, sun beds or spraying.
Being old is a disease to avoid?
Oh the humanity. :bawl:
Now breath out gently and smile at yourself. Smile and be happy at others. Some have no legs on their hairs and smile.
@SillyPutty actually I know someone who is obese by BMI scale but totally happy with herself. She has been thinner, and is unhappy being that way. She prefers to carry extra weight. It's not for me to say she is wrong for doing so.
As far as compassion and where it crosses the line, I guess it depends on the 2 people who are involved. Just because person A has good intentions, does not mean that person B is not feeling hurt over their comments. I can tell you what kinds of comment are supportive and caring and compassionate towards my friends, and which are not. The people making the comments often mistakenly believe their comments are compassionate, yet the person receiving them does not feel it. Who is right and who is wrong?
In my experience, people use the phrase "tough love"in situations where they care, but are unskillful in showing it. They believe by being rude or downright mean, they are showing their care, yet the other person doesn't feel it.
My friend, the one I have mentioned previously, the last time I saw her she was about 6 foot 2 inches, and 320 pounds. When we parted ways (because she moved) I was about 5 foot 9 inches and 190 pounds. Who do you think was healthier?
Well, I guess this settles it then. Fat is not only surprisingly healthy, but it also makes for a happy life. Man was I wrong. Maybe to celebrate my new found knowledge, I'll go eat some pizza tomorrow instead of a salad. And I'll also skip the exercise and just eat more pizza in its place while watching hours of TV. It's more fun being a child than an adult, really. As long as I'm not 600 pounds and doing fetish food porn it's acceptable and healthy, right?
Anyway I think I've said all I needed to say about this topic. Anything else, and I just set myself up for more opportunities to be called mean or hurtful or whatever else comes from those who wish to play the role of "hero."
@SillyPutty actually I know someone who is obese by BMI scale but totally happy with herself. She has been thinner, and is unhappy being that way. She prefers to carry extra weight. It's not for me to say she is wrong for doing so.
As far as compassion and where it crosses the line, I guess it depends on the 2 people who are involved. Just because person A has good intentions, does not mean that person B is not feeling hurt over their comments. I can tell you what kinds of comment are supportive and caring and compassionate towards my friends, and which are not. The people making the comments often mistakenly believe their comments are compassionate, yet the person receiving them does not feel it. Who is right and who is wrong?
In my experience, people use the phrase "tough love"in situations where they care, but are unskillful in showing it. They believe by being rude or downright mean, they are showing their care, yet the other person doesn't feel it.
My friend, the one I have mentioned previously, the last time I saw her she was about 6 foot 2 inches, and 320 pounds. When we parted ways (because she moved) I was about 5 foot 9 inches and 190 pounds. Who do you think was healthier?
SillyPutty, there comes a time when one has to let people have their own way, no matter how much science (and even common knowledge) is behind your own position. I have to admit that some of us want to feel good emotionally, more than we want to feel good in terms of real health. And that's been the underlying basis of this thread.
When we talk about the personal responsibility aspect of this thread, I think we should remember how many times people on this forum have recommended Alcoholics Anonymous as a way for people to beat alcoholism. And what is it that AA members say at the beginning of any talk? "I am John Smith and I am an alcoholic." Well, I am Vince Lynch, and I am fat, and I am doing something about it...before it kills me. I've improved my diet quite bit, gotten more regular exercise, and over the past 5 years I've lost 40 pounds. But that leaves 45 to go before I'm satisfied. I hope I live to achieve that.
I totally agree that giving people unsolicited advice is almost always ineffective. My wife keeps telling me that, but because I've never asked her opinion, I haven't learned to stop.
Addicted people (smokers, alcoholics) have typical thoughts about smoking and drinking that work around common sense and that justify their behavior. Few people will admit that these thought are complete rubbish and that their addicted brain is controlled by the substance; that Marlboro-man and Jack Daniels have hijacked their brain.
When we support these thoughts we don’t support the addict, we support the addiction.
Buddhism - most people on this forum would agree - is a compassionate teaching. But we all know it can sound pretty unsupportive to a brain that is addicted to sense-pleasures. Our addictions tell us life is not dukkha! The screwed up reward system in our brain says otherwise. Life is great, if only our brain gets whatever it is addicted to.
Being unsupportive to the addiction’s thought-patterns is not always appreciated and will certainly not result in a change of behavior right away. But we are planting seeds and pulling weeds. We are working in the huge garden of thoughts that people hear and copy. We are copying memes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme.
When we talk about health-risks of obesity we are copying the memes that can –under the right circumstances – change behavior and contribute to peoples’ health. These memes are in a jungle where they struggle for survival; they eat or get eaten. Their natural enemies are thoughts of denial or condoning and numberless excuses.
Maybe we should say Buddhism is founded upon the Four Noble Memes that – under the right circumstances – can change peoples’ lives and liberate them. But really there are no self-entities to be liberated. There are thought-patterns of craving and suffering and there is dharma, the thought-patterns of liberation. It is nothing personal; just a process happening in our brain and ultimately capable of changing our thoughts, emotions and actions.
ALL fat people = unhealthy All fat people = "bad" and at fault All fat people = stupid and/or uneducated All fat people = mental / emotional problems All fat people = food addicted / eating disordered (gluttonous) All fat people = want to be fat (or just too lazy to do something about it) All fat people = never exercise All fat people who claim medical conditions causing weight issues = lying All fat people = CAN be skinny people - if they weren't slackers and in denial.
And lastly; All fat people NEED others to butt into their lives and give unsolicited advice and condemnation - you know, for 'motivation'. Because that's other people's job to mind fat people's business....
Gotcha.
And Vinlyn, you are just a weight-loss God. Congratulations on your personal perfection. Glad you guys straightened me all out on this. now I realize I'm totally wasting my time for the last 5+ years being involved in groups, organizations and petitions to eradicate Size Discrimination - in the workplace and in health care. Good to know I can stop worrying about Fat bias, (it's all in my head!) and can stop reading all the new studies, science-based articles and books on the subject. Silly me. Glad you are all so open minded. And all the snark and snottiness? Totally needed to get me to see your points are the "right" points. So compassionate. Thank you.
There are two issues here and it seems to me that they are getting confused: health and appearance.
Insofar as weight may adversely affect one's health (over- or under- weight in terms of one's BMI), this is a health issue. Living in the state of Arkansas, I see this a LOT here in the ER, where eating habits (not in terms of quantity really, but quality of food), where people resort to unhealthy fast food and junk food on a daily basis. And it takes its toll severely on the population in this area (Misissippi, across the way, is even worse).
This is not simply "their fault"-- if you were raised in such an environment, this would seem perfectly normal. I can't tell you how many people I have seen come in full arrest in their 40s!!!! And of those people, every one of them have been morbidly obese. And these people had children, or were the children of someone else--their families suffer. but they just don't know how to live healthy in a fast food culture. Of course, "physical education" isn't education about health at all, but about "playing sports."
Maintaining at least some degree of good health matters. By the same token though, just because someone doesn't have some sort of "ideal body" doesn't make them any less beautiful (my ex-wife was not slender, but I nevertheless found her physically attractive).
As far as appearance goes, yes, there is a problem when an ideal is constantly foisted upon people to make one feel guilty in not meeting some sort of standard of beauty. But this is a separate issue. And that's what makes discussing this with someone who is over- or under- weight difficult, because the two issues are so strongly associated with one another that it one needs to be very careful with this subject.
If someone wants someone to tell him or her to lose weight (for health reasons), that is what a physician is for. If one can't be skillful in expressing compassion, then it isn't very compassionate. Insofar as one's weight may be exacerbating various health issues, its worth investigating. Insofar as appearance goes, well, to hell with what anyone says. This is prejudice plain and simple. This is not a black and white issue. Health and appearance are two very different issues--they are not the same.
One may be over or under weight to a certain degree and be healthy. One may be more than just a little under or over weight and not be healthy. This window of healthy weight may vary more from one person to another depending on their individual circumstances.
Insofar as weight affects one's health, yes, weight does matter. The problem is that it is too easily conflated with appearance, conformity and guilty-- none of which have anything to do with health.
@SillyPutty Not at all. I never said anything of the sort. I was just disputing your idea that no one who is fat can also be happy, because it's not true. I never debated that in many cases, being obese has health risks. But it doesn't always make one unhealthy, either. I never once said being 600 pounds is ok or healthy. However, when you look at what qualifies for obese it's easy to see how someone who qualifies as obese can still be healthy. I have since lost weight because *for me* I didn't feel good being overweight. I had been within normal range most of my life, but after my last pregnancy had a much harder time losing the 40 pounds I gained. When I had my follow up appointment I was qualified as obese, at 5 foot 10 inches, and 212 pounds. Was I unhealthy? No. I just did not sustain my normal exercise in the last many months of my pregnancy because I had horrible sciatica and I gained more weight than I should have. It took about 2 years to lose it. Do I feel better? Yes. But that doesn't mean it's fair for me to say that EVERYONE would feel better at my current weight. Every single person on the planet is different. One person at 300 pounds can actually be healthier than someone who is 150 pounds. Someone who is obese can still be obese even if they are eating nutritionally healthy foods. Someone can be thin and eat garbage all the time and never gain much weight because of their metabolism. The only thing I have been consistently arguing against is the idea that everyone else, knows what is best for another person. The human body varies incredibly from person to person, and not everything that is good for one person, is good for the next, nor is everything that is so horrible for one, as horrible for the next.
It is simply a fact that when I was labeled as obese at 212 pounds, I was quite a bit healthier than even my mom, who was 135 pounds (she is 5 foot 3 inches) who has a desk job that stresses her out 10 hours a day and then she goes home, and eats chips and dip for dinner. It IS possible. Therefore, we cannot simply assume that everyone we look at who seems to be obese is unhealthy and therefore make it our job/our place to tell them so. I never said I thought 600 pounds was ok. But there is a far wider range of possibilities than what is being considered here. Too many people relate obesity to the shows like "900 pound virgin"and other such things. When in reality most people who qualify as obese, aren't much different than the average person you see walking down the street every day, and that they very well, could be healthier than the 24 year old who is living on subway and diet coke yet is a healthy weight.
Comments
Due to my heart condition, over the past year-and-a-half I slowly worked myself up (or I should say back up) to walking more. I'm now up to 2.5 miles a day (when my back isn't bothering me). And as a result of me taking charge of my health in that respect, my heart condition bothers me only occasionally, rather than on an almost daily basis.
Very gradually I have improved my diet...although not enough. So this week I started trying something different about that. Every other day is going to be a "healthy foods only day". Since I was going to someone's house last evening for dinner, and knew they were serving less than ideal foods...fine...I went with the flow. Today, however, will be an all-healthy day: juice for breakfast, yogurt for lunch, stir-fried veggies for dinner.
The thing that really bothers me is when the discussion turns to weight (and among friends that's a pretty common topic), if I say I'm trying to lose weight, I can count on a response from someone along the lines of "Oh you're not fat" or "You don't really need to lose weight". And the last time someone said that to me, I responded with, "What the hell is wrong with you? I wear a size 38 pants. I'm fat. I'm 55 pounds overweight...and used to be 35 pounds heavier that this!" It's bad enough when someone makes excuses for themselves, and even worse when others make excuses for them. Too politically correct to be honest...an American curse.
Wow. Speak for yourself. Project much?
Shorts are a good topic. I am thin, this I know, but one of my first boyfriends when I was in 8th grade used to call me thunderthighs and to this day, I find it difficult to wear shorts. I feel that despite being thin, my thighs are disproportionately thick compared to my hips (I have really slender hips). As a result of my hatred, my thighs became the target of my self injury, so now I have a lot of scars that also show should I choose to wear shorts. This is another thing that society doesn't deal too well with. Sometimes I say 'fuck em' and sometimes I just hide. I think most girls have that one thing that they dislike about themselves... or several... and while I do believe that Eleanor Roosevelt is right that MOST people don't think about you as much as you think, of course there are the catty bitches that prove contrary. Even if you're the most perfect woman, some girls will probably say, "Look at that spray tan, bottle blonde pretending she's all perfect and shit." Lol... there's always something and that's why I find Eleanor's quote helpful. Part of it is just accepting that... well... haters gonna hate.
Side note: Talking about your friend made me think of Fat Amy from the movie Pitch Perfect... dunno if you've seen it or not, but I absolutely adore Rebel Wilson. Fat Amy is an example of taking a defense mechanism and turning it into something positive.
Did you (any of you) watch that thing Dove did that is on youtube about women and how they see themselves? It was pretty interesting, and sad.
LOL As Dr Seuss says, "adults are just obsolete children, and the hell with them."
If refusing to accept that people bully others makes me not grown up, then I guess I am glad for that.
Fat and proud?
Middle way?
Anyway, that's a rant for another time, but what I want to say is, I think if you eat sensibly and exercise a bit every day, you shouldn't have such self-loathing nor should you judge someone else who is a bit heavier than you. Our bodies are going to naturally adjust to the weight they're meant to if we take proper care of ourselves. So I'm not advocating being 5'2" and 300lbs. Obviously that is extremely unhealthy and shows that someone is eating too much and/or moving around too little. And just because that person is not "unhealthy" *YET* when compared to a skinny person, give them 10-20 more years. I guarantee you they will develop Type II Diabetes and other wonderful health problems in due time.
So in short, I think it's compassionate to try to help someone who has a weight problem by encouraging them and teaching them how to live like you're living (assuming you are healthy yourself), but making fun of them and judging them never helps. Saying, "Look at me! I have will power! I'm thin and in shape!" is just arrogant and isn't helping anyone out but you and your ego. It shows a lack of empathy and an abundance of ignorance, since you have no idea what it's like to be inside their body.
The thread took this turn when someone suggested it was a good thing to let fat people know that they NEED to lose weight, they NEED to be healthy, etc... because, after all, it's expected of them to feel shame and disgust about being fat; and fat people are never healthy (they claim) ... It relates because it's all about judgement, criticizing, bullying others (all based on how someone LOOKS), while claiming it's being "compassionate"...
This woman in the video explains what that's like from the other side of the scale, so to speak. And she brings up some relevant stats and studies as well.
So how come when we say we have concern over someone's weight, we're being bullies, but when we have concern over someone doing drugs or smoking or having reckless sex (etc.), that we're showing compassion for their welfare? Why is it okay to tell a smoker "That pack will kill ya," but saying to someone 300+ lbs., "You should stop drinking so much soda" that you're trying to take away their rights as a consumer (a'la Mayor Bloomberg in NYC)?
I'm not saying that I disagree with you. Making fun of fat people is the last acceptable form of bigotry in this world, and I think it's disgusting. Don't even get me started on that topic. Being someone who has struggled with weight all her life, I can tell you I'm the first one to become upset when I see this happen. (When I tell people I'm vegan they look at me like I should be an emaciated waif... it's quite funny to see their reactions when I go, "No, thank you, I'm vegan."
A little story... last week I went into a restaurant to get a quick bite to eat. While waiting for my order, I saw this young girl... she must have been literally 350+ pounds... about 5'6" or so. She was with her sister (maybe mother?) who was just over 5' tall and was petite and "perfect" looking. I watched this poor young girl, who was wearing SpongeBob Squarepants pajama bottoms (I fear it was because she perhaps couldn't find comfortable sweat pants to fit her
But then what really broke my heart was when she wanted to order cheese fries but didn't have enough money with her. So she asked her sister if she had any money to borrow. Since she didn't, the girl said, "Wait, I will go into the car and see if I have any change in there." As she walked out I saw her holding one of those huge 72 oz-type plastic soda cups with a bunch of change in it.
Now, I want to preface this again with the fact that I am not skinny. I don't think I've ever been thin as I'd like to be. And even while watching this girl with her food, I felt extremely hypocritical thinking this since I'm currently trying to drop some weight I've gained over the years, but, I felt really bad for her. I was not thinking she was less of a human being than me, nor was I laughing at her body's condition. No. I felt real sadness for her. It broke my heart to see a young girl that obese, searching for change in her car like a crack addict would for drug money. I wanted to grab her, hug her, and tell her, "Please... please please please don't do this to yourself. Stop eating the greasy, fatty, salty foods with little-to-no nutritional value. You're worth more than that." And I also wanted to take her sister aside and ask her, "Do you know you're enabling her to suffer in this body of hers?" Not that we can blame the sister, but obviously this person was a family member or friend of sort whom this girl relied upon. Sure, the girl may throw a fit and punch some walls because you're not allowing her to eat the food she desires, but how are you going to feel when you're sitting in the hospital with her after her first heart attack at 25 years old?
So, my point here is, I'm sorry, but when I see people that big, you can't tell me that they're happy. You cannot convince me that they have an acceptable quality of life. If not from society beating them up constantly telling them they're worthless because of their addiction (yes, I truly believe it's due to addiction to salt, fat, and sugar), then simply from feeling like they're a prisoner in their own body. So you cannot tell that that young female in that restaurant is truly "happy" being that large. People her size and larger (and even smaller) suffer on all accounts, not just physically-- forget about the world snickering at her behind her back or judging her as a person unjustly.
Therefore I see no problem with some compassionate coaching... some friendly encouragement... imparting some knowledge about nutrition and exercise. But instead, sadly, we are taught as a society to bully and shame fat people into becoming skinner, making them sometimes go in the exact opposite direction of what we think they should do (or we're taught to go, "Oh, no, you're fine just the way you are. Here, eat some potato chips."). So why do we remain so cruel and judgmental? Because we're taught to. Because it makes rich people even richer. How so? Well, pharmaceutical companies get richer because of fat people getting sick and needing medication, diet industries get rich because of fat people thinking they have no will power and try countless fad diet after fad diet, the medical field (including psychiatry) get richer because of fat people who need lap band surgery and heart surgery and back surgery and oh the list goes on and on, and Hollywood gets richer because of fat people since the skinner and more perfect they appear on TV and in (Photoshopped) magazines the more we hate ourselves and turn to food for comfort.
I truly feel for fat people. I feel compassion for them because I feel compassion for myself. I think fast food is the devil, I think more people should go veg*n (read The China Study), and I definitely think that the more "raw" your diet is in terms of fresh fruits and vegetables, the better you will feel and lighter you'll be. Moderate exercise is great; walking is the best thing, next to cycling and yoga. Be kind to everyone you meet, because you don't know the battle they're facing.
If they repeated the study with the 45-64 and 64-and-older groups broken out, that would have been more interesting, but they probably didn't have the statistical power for that. Given the weaknesses with the study which they "thoughtfully" enumerate in the discussion, they probably thought of the issue I'm raising, tried the age-specific analyses, and concluded that it wouldn't have made a publishable paper. It's also disturbing that they didn't include enough information for an interested reader to repeat their analysis. (I have nothing personal against the authors or their claim, it's just that I used to work in a related field, and I know just how ugly it gets.)
Anyway, with such a large fraction of young people in the study, the fact that healthy habits have a bigger impact on mortality than obesity is not that surprising. @vinlyn's story is typical: it catches up with you as you age.
Definitely agree that "compassionately" pointing out someone's mistakes when actually you're primarily motivated to make them uncomfortable is harmful and counterproductive (except to your own enjoyment.)
However, I think the other stuff in the video (I watched up to when she showed the graph) this comes back to the question in the OP. You know that if you're fat you'll experience ostracism, you know that if you eat less you'll lose weight, you know you're implicitly making a choice about this every time you decide whether, what and how much to eat. The ostracism is cruel, but it doesn't change where your responsibility for the situation lies. You can't change the ostracism, but you can change your lifestyle.
As for shame and "scale-dependent self esteem," that's not the only way to change one's behavior.
I guess I'm one of those people who, though I have always been a bit overweight throughout my adult life, really gained weight about 15 years ago when twice in one year I fell and broke first a shoulder and then an elbow. They were bad breaks and required me to do no exercise for about 5 months. Boy did I gain. I should weight about 160, had been up to about 185, but eventually got all the way up to 260. Nevertheless, with the exception of a reasonable level of high blood pressure, I remained seemingly healthy. Until the last 3 years, when it all began catching up with me.
First it was the high blood pressure, which during periods of high stress would sky rocket, and I ended up in urgent care a half dozen times. Then, when I moved to Colorado, the elevation made it sky rocket off and on for nearly a year, until I finally got it under control. But no matter what the immediate reason for a flare-up, every doctor I ever saw said the underlying cause was being overweight.
Then it was the heart problem, which is genetic. So not related. Right? Well, no, my general practitioner and cardiologist both say it is showing up sooner than it might have due to my weight, and it would be easier to control if I were not overweight.
Then it was sleep apnea. Not only caused by my weight, but the severity due to my weight. So I sleep with a CPAP machine with a low dose of supplemental oxygen.
More recently, it's been the onset of gastrointestinal reflux, which is made considerably worse due to weight. Thus, more medications.
And, right now I'm delaying a kidney procedure (unrelated to being fat) because my lower back is so bad...exacerbated by being fat.
When I think back of the very large Lynch family, the more average or skinny the relative was, the more apt they were to live into the 80s. None of the oeverweight ones lived past their mid-60s or very early 70s. Perhaps a coincidence. But: "According to the National Center for Health Statistics, the risk of an early death goes up as weight increases. The NIH found even a 10- to 20-pound weight gain can increases the threat of premature death, especially in adults between the ages of 30 and 64. People with a BMI index higher than 30 had a 50 percent to 100 percent greater risk of early mortality." (eHowHealth).
A new trend seems to be that no matter what the medical affliction, you can also say your healthy. For example, a lot of gay men with HIV infection will say they are "poz and healthy". Just like we have so many overweight people saying we are fat but healthy. For a while...perhaps. But in the long run...no for most people.
http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/obesity-health-risks
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/risks.html
http://stanfordhospital.org/clinicsmedServices/COE/surgicalServices/generalSurgery/bariatricsurgery/obesity/effects.html
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/obesity/DS00314/DSECTION=complications
Now this has nothing to do with how people who are fat should be treated by others. I don't care if you are fat or skinny, bald or with flowing golden locks, tall or short, ugly or handsome, GT or MMR, Nordic or Latino, a male who lectures or a female who nags, gay or straight, or any other classification you can think of for people. You ought to be treated with respect.
It was very interesting living in Thailand. The Thais had a very different perspective on how to start a conversation with a foreigner, which they saw as being a polite thing do. A stranger stepping into an elevator might say, "Hello, you are fat" (or tall, or short, etc.). Or ask, "How much to earn each year?" or "How much did your shirt cost?" There was never any judgement to the comment, just a statement of fact. Not saying that's the way it should be here, but just saying we shouldn't be afraid of reality, either.
I read every word of your post, carefully, and in the gentlest of tones.
I know that's how you meant it. From reading your words I know you are a caring and sincere person expressing their thoughts on a very complex and controversial topic.
I feel your sympathy and empathy- honestly, I really really do. (unlike a few others involved in this topic), and I appreciate it greatly.
BUT... (you knew there was a 'but' coming, didn't you?) ... just like the "but..." disclaimer I'm typing out now about your post, you have also inserted a few "but..." disclaimers in yours. If they weren't in your post, it would have been spot-on deliciously perfect. But unfortunately, they were there. :-(
Oh, I know - they are extremely hard to let go of.
They're like religious beliefs- no matter how many times people tell you; "[your belief system] isn't real..." or "You have no proof of God/heaven/hell..." etc., you're going to hold onto your beliefs.
This is how many -if not most- of us cling to the myths and stereotypes about others, until one day we finally realize it's sooooo much better for everyone involved if we just. let. them. go.
Here's one to let go of: someone at 300 lbs. just CAN'T be happy- or healthy.
Yes, they can. Actually, there would probably be quite a few more fat and happy people if society and discrimination didn't make their lives a living hell 24/7.
I know of MANY women 5'2" - 5'9" who tip the scales at down right "obese" - 250, 285, 310, 340 pounds, who are happy people; with jobs, friends, loving families and relationships, but most importantly -- they are NO LESS HEALTHY than any average size person in their age range. Honest.
I'm really not making that up. I am one of them: BP; normal. Cholesterol; 170 w/excellent good-to-bad ratio. Glucose; normal. Triglycerides; normal. Liver, kidney, lung functions; all normal. I don't smoke, I rarely drink, and I don't do hard drugs. Those along with heredity/genes, are the key elements to evaluating Health, or predicting future health.
My only health issues at nearly 57 yrs old are; arthritis (hereditary and rampant in my family amongst fat AND thin- and younger); and a nearly dead thyroid for the last 23 years (on meds, that really don't help at all). The arthritis (shoulders, wrists and knees) keeps me from being as active as I wish I could be; but I do what I can (water aerobics and stretching).
On a scale of 1 - 10 with 10 being the absolute most 'healthy' diet one could imagine (if there IS such a thing), I would put my diet at a firm 7.5 -- Could it be better? Of course it could be... but why?
I eat very little red meat, NO SODA- EVER, NO Sweetened DRINKS/JUICES- EVER. Dessert is a once or twice a week event- maybe. I eat 'fast food' MAYBE twice a month - if I'm rushed for time and busy doing other things. I don't eat a lot of pre-packaged foods; some, but not a lot. I'm a good cook, and an even better baker. Happily married to the same man for 37 years, (and he's 6" tall about 180 lbs.)
I have a strong educational/training background in the medical field as a certified EKG tech and lab tech (& phlebotomy). I have worked with doctors, in hospital ERs and then with veterinarians. I have 2 college degrees, the latest one in psychology and my GPA was 4.0. My IQ has consistently checked at 136 - 138, so I'm not exactly a slow learner...
So what is the problem? Well, if a lot of people can take a look at me crossing the street in front of their car, or walking along the boardwalk on a beautiful day, eating a soft serve ice cream cone, and say to themselves (or out loud to others):
"Oh brother! Look at THAT fat pig! Holy shit lady, you don't NEED that ice cream- you two ton Tony!" Or "Someone needs to tell that dumb cow that ice cream is BAD for her, and she shouldn't eat it! She doesn't deserve to eat like thin people eat!" THAT is the problem, IMO.
Or if I'm walking with my husband (who I admit is still pretty handsome for an ol' coot) and they wonder "What the hell does he see in HER?" Or "Imagine sleeping with THAT sow!?"
Why is that OK?
Why are those assumptions and degradations about me acceptable? Why should anyone not related to me feel entitled to lecture me or warn me about my "health"? Why is it expected that fat people need to explain themselves to strangers? Do we have some sort of a "moral obligation" to do so? Who made that rule?
I know you said very clearly that you would NEVER say those things yourself, @sillyputty, and I believe you.
But then you did have that "but..." disclaimer in there about 300 lb people never being happy- or healthy. So without any malice or anger, I just explained why you should let that one go....
We should let ALL those stereotypes and assumptions go, and just accept the diversity of people just as they are. That is what true "compassion" really is.
Not related to weight, but I can tell you that having children with various educational, social and behavioral issues that being judged when people don't know what is going on, really sucks. As a mom of a kid who routinely yet unpredictably had meltdowns at the store (I'm not talking normal tantrums, I can't even tell you how many times i had to leave stores or restaurants) and the looks and comments people make, not only about you as a clearly horrible parent for allowing a child to behave that way, but about your child are quite hurtful. As a result I try not to cause other people to feel the same way when I don't know their circumstances. That is the part of the whole societal reaction to fat people that bothers me. People assume a LOT of things about a fat person when they see them on the street, not knowing a thing about them, and feel their perception and assumption is enough to tell that person how to live and make rude comments about them. It's not ok. Pointing out to someone (even if you are close to them) that they are fat, is unnecessary. Saying something like "Hey, you want to go for a walk and a frozen yogurt instead of going to the movie tonight?" would be a helpful and supportive suggestion. Saying "hey, you are way overweight, why don't you drink less soda" is more judgemental than helpful and supportive. Just like when people would see me in the store with my child and say "why doesn't your kid know how to behave?" instead of simply offering to hold the door while I carry my 75 pound 7 year old child out the door screaming and kicking, myself in tears because I know what he is going through is horrible and yet people stand there judging him and me without knowing what they are even judging.
Ok, @sillyputty, we'll use 600 lb Donna Simpson as the poster child for ALL fat or obese people if you agree to use either of the women below to represent ALL thin people.
Not fair? Why not, if we're going to use the extreme end of fatness, (to prove unhealthiness) we should use the extreme end of the thinness (to prove healthiness).
Come on... let's keep it on the curve and away from the extremes.
Medically, anyone who is 25% over their "ideal weight" is considered Obese. So if someone should weigh 150 lbs - according to the arbitrary BS weight chart- but instead weighs 187.5 they are considered 'obese'. Besides, you are the one who brought up the "300 lb" weight as a discussion point, not me.
Does it really matter to you - personally - if Donna considers herself healthy and happy? How do you know she's lying? Is she dead now? Did her doctor give another story?
Or... wait a minute... is this the woman who purposely stuffs herself to keep gaining weight because she gets $$ from fat fetish freaks online? If that is the same person... PLEASE... let's not even go there as an example. Really??
We have weight and height charts for a reason. There are thousands upon thousands of medical journals and studies done on fat/obese people for a reason. (PS Those two pictures are considered too thin and anorexic due to those weight/height charts that you keep insisting are ridiculously off-base and useless for today's average person.)
For someone so "happy" with their weight, you tend to come off rather... angry... with this topic, MaryAnne. I dunno, but I think if I were happy I would just be like "oh well" and go on with my life, not caring what anyone else thought. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting it, but it seems that way to me at least.
PS Donna Simpson has been losing weight since 2011 due to various reasons, including wanting to be healthy for her children and to be happy again.
I'm not angry at all. And I suspected the bait. I'm up for some discussion...
So, Where do 'we' draw the line? Perfect question. Here's my answer:
WHY do 'we' have to draw a line?
Who are 'we' to draw a line and expect others to toe it? I don't get it. Really.
Why is there this need to filter people into "acceptable" and "unacceptable"?
Who sets the criteria? You? Me? Society?
Why do you (figuratively speaking 'you') think you can set those perimeters? I always thought we were all the boss of our OWN underpants... but apparently not. Some people (fat people) have others to answer to. Hmm... I didn't know that. Must have missed that memo.
Well OK. I know when I'm beaten. You win. You have every right to assess, judge, and disregard anyone you deem beneath acceptable visual standards. Got it.
And I promise I'm still not angry.
I've been fat and shit on by plenty of "well meaning" and "compassionate" people in my lifetime to get angry over a discussion such as this. (I'm not accusing you of doing that, just explaining my prior experiences).
The only thing a little bit surprising about this particular discussion today is the fact it's taking place on a Buddhist forum. I just sort of, almost, expected it to go differently.
::: shrugs::: Sometimes I'm wrong.
I brought this up before but no one commented on it. Why can't you be compassionate towards a person in the sense that you see them without judgements, BUT DUE TO BASIC LOGIC AND SCIENTIFIC DATA worry for their health and want to help them? I don't see wanting someone to be healthy and care about their life as being hateful towards fat people. I honestly don't. If there's no name calling, no snide remarks and laughter, no assumptions of negative traits, then why is that a bad thing? Assuming there is a health risk is NOT a NEGATIVE judgement/assumption-- it is a NEUTRAL assumption. Thinking that is not positive or negative. It just is what it is. Just like seeing someone snorting coke, you're going to think, "Wow... I hope he doesn't 'OD and kill himself" or "I hope he doesn't get into trouble with the law" or "I hope his heart doesn't give out on him one day from all that drug abuse." It is said out of compassion. Out of concern. No one is calling the man a worthless scumbag druggie. No. They are saying neutral statements that MAY OR MAY NOT eventually transpire.
Again, wanting to see someone lose weight is based on logic and scientific data. Thinking someone might have a heart attack due to the fat surrounding their heart both internally and externally is not the same as saying, "I think you're a bad person for being fat!" No! It's saying that, "I care about your health and want you to live a long, happy life." Is it saying that alllllllllll fat people will have heart attacks? No! But it is saying that the chance of it happening is much, much greater for fat/obese people, and thus that's why there is so much concern for them. There is no judgement in that at all.
Also, as for the "happy" part, of course it is a normal assumption to think that fat/obese people may not be as happy as they could be. If you weighed (again) 300lbs. and were 5'2", would you honestly say to yourself, "I am happy at 300lbs. I never want to be skinny. I could care less if I weighed 120lbs. Even if someone had a magic wand and made me thin, I would not accept. Nope! I love this added weight and that's that!"
If you could honestly say that, then yes, you are quite happy. But if there is even the slightest twinge of "Oh, I would love to weigh 120lbs... it would be a dream come true" then you truly are not happy and not being authentic with yourself. The end. Case closed.
A typical boxer or American-Football player would look fantastic I suppose and feel great about it too.
But I think they’d better take the risk on CTE seriously. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy
I don’t judge them, I don’t bully them, I just think they are taking an unnecessary health-risk. They are free to do so, but they should take that risk into account.
Obesity has health risks too. People who are obese in middle age are at almost four times greater risk of developing dementias such as Alzheimer's disease in later life than people of normal weight, according to a recent study. I don’t judge obese people, I don’t bully them, I just think obesity is a time bomb for people’s health and wellbeing. People are free to live the way they want to live their life, but I think they should take the health risks into account.
Anyway, one last thought I want to run by you, @MaryAnne, and anyone else who cares to chime in....
What about children? Do you think it's acceptable that so many young children today are considered obese? Wasn't that way 3 decades ago. So is it normal? Are we to go with the flow and allow them to overeat whatever they want, be sick, develop diabetes among other health conditions, and be sad because everyone calls them "fat" and refuses to be their friend at school? (And, yes, parents are to blame up to a certain age for their child's weight.)
Oh, wait... you mean... you mean you wouldn't want your child to go through all that physical and emotional torture, eh? You want your child to be at a healthy, normal weight, active, eat healthy, happy and be socially accepted? :eek:
So why is it okay that we, as adults, allow ourselves to stay fat/obese, but when it comes to our children we want "only the best" for them?
Makes
no
sense.
Me? I really don't care if you're fat, skinny, purple, orange, male, female, whatever. However, I do care enough to get in someone's face and tell them that there are health risks involved with their actions/behaviors. If no one else cared enough in your (general "your"-- not directed at anyone on this board) life to tell you this, then I feel bad for you. Because you deserve to be around people who genuinely care about you and your health and want to see you thrive. It's' called tough love. Enabling people to do unhealthy things is not compassion, it is not love, it is not heroic. This goes for everything-- not just diet and exercise.
ETA: Oh, look. How apropos. An article just posted on CNN's main page about losing weight in order to gain health and happiness:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/24/health/jacki-monaco-weight-loss/index.html?hpt=hp_c4
But my personality is live and let live (or die). I bought my ex gf beer and cigarettes every day. She's straightened around since I left. I guess I was an enabler though that is not what I had intended. When I was left I had many phone conversations with her and my mom overheard and said "wow you are wise", because I gave supportive good advice. So tough love is not my specialty, but supportive is good.
And, yes, while on that topic, that supportive kind of love is wonderful. Not saying that isn't *the best* option in all situations. But the day you have a child who is doing something harmful to themselves, you come back and tell me whether or not you tried to rely on that "tough love" at all along with your supportive love. It's nice to lend an ear and be empathetic, of course. But if you see someone about to jump off a bridge, are you just going to stand there and let them jump and go "Oh well, live and let live... at least I listened to them before they jumped," or are you going to try to take them by the hand and keep them from killing themselves, and thus be put in the position of looking like "the bad guy" or "the guy who doesn't understand my pain" or "the guy who should have kept his nose out of my business?" To me? Squashing your ego as well as your need to feel reciprocal love is more important than being "liked" by a person who needs your help.
Oriental people are having their eyes modified to appear wider. Lips are pumped, stomachs depumped, faces pumped with toxins, wrinkles peeled with acid. Dark skinned people are chemically bleaching skin, light coloured people are ODing on carotene, sun beds or spraying.
Being old is a disease to avoid?
Oh the humanity. :bawl:
Now breath out gently and smile at yourself. Smile and be happy at others. Some have no legs on their hairs and smile.
Wash your brain clean, it is over weight.
As far as compassion and where it crosses the line, I guess it depends on the 2 people who are involved. Just because person A has good intentions, does not mean that person B is not feeling hurt over their comments. I can tell you what kinds of comment are supportive and caring and compassionate towards my friends, and which are not. The people making the comments often mistakenly believe their comments are compassionate, yet the person receiving them does not feel it. Who is right and who is wrong?
In my experience, people use the phrase "tough love"in situations where they care, but are unskillful in showing it. They believe by being rude or downright mean, they are showing their care, yet the other person doesn't feel it.
My friend, the one I have mentioned previously, the last time I saw her she was about 6 foot 2 inches, and 320 pounds. When we parted ways (because she moved) I was about 5 foot 9 inches and 190 pounds. Who do you think was healthier?
Anyway I think I've said all I needed to say about this topic. Anything else, and I just set myself up for more opportunities to be called mean or hurtful or whatever else comes from those who wish to play the role of "hero."
/*end*/
When we talk about the personal responsibility aspect of this thread, I think we should remember how many times people on this forum have recommended Alcoholics Anonymous as a way for people to beat alcoholism. And what is it that AA members say at the beginning of any talk? "I am John Smith and I am an alcoholic." Well, I am Vince Lynch, and I am fat, and I am doing something about it...before it kills me. I've improved my diet quite bit, gotten more regular exercise, and over the past 5 years I've lost 40 pounds. But that leaves 45 to go before I'm satisfied. I hope I live to achieve that.
Addicted people (smokers, alcoholics) have typical thoughts about smoking and drinking that work around common sense and that justify their behavior. Few people will admit that these thought are complete rubbish and that their addicted brain is controlled by the substance; that Marlboro-man and Jack Daniels have hijacked their brain.
When we support these thoughts we don’t support the addict, we support the addiction.
Buddhism - most people on this forum would agree - is a compassionate teaching. But we all know it can sound pretty unsupportive to a brain that is addicted to sense-pleasures. Our addictions tell us life is not dukkha! The screwed up reward system in our brain says otherwise. Life is great, if only our brain gets whatever it is addicted to.
Being unsupportive to the addiction’s thought-patterns is not always appreciated and will certainly not result in a change of behavior right away. But we are planting seeds and pulling weeds. We are working in the huge garden of thoughts that people hear and copy. We are copying memes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme.
When we talk about health-risks of obesity we are copying the memes that can –under the right circumstances – change behavior and contribute to peoples’ health. These memes are in a jungle where they struggle for survival; they eat or get eaten. Their natural enemies are thoughts of denial or condoning and numberless excuses.
Maybe we should say Buddhism is founded upon the Four Noble Memes that – under the right circumstances – can change peoples’ lives and liberate them. But really there are no self-entities to be liberated.
There are thought-patterns of craving and suffering and there is dharma, the thought-patterns of liberation. It is nothing personal; just a process happening in our brain and ultimately capable of changing our thoughts, emotions and actions.
All fat people = "bad" and at fault
All fat people = stupid and/or uneducated
All fat people = mental / emotional problems
All fat people = food addicted / eating disordered (gluttonous)
All fat people = want to be fat (or just too lazy to do something about it)
All fat people = never exercise
All fat people who claim medical conditions causing weight issues = lying
All fat people = CAN be skinny people - if they weren't slackers and in denial.
And lastly; All fat people NEED others to butt into their lives and give unsolicited advice and condemnation - you know, for 'motivation'. Because that's other people's job to mind fat people's business....
Gotcha.
And Vinlyn, you are just a weight-loss God. Congratulations on your personal perfection.
Glad you guys straightened me all out on this. now I realize I'm totally wasting my time for the last 5+ years being involved in groups, organizations and petitions to eradicate Size Discrimination - in the workplace and in health care.
Good to know I can stop worrying about Fat bias, (it's all in my head!) and can stop reading all the new studies, science-based articles and books on the subject. Silly me. Glad you are all so open minded. And all the snark and snottiness? Totally needed to get me to see your points are the "right" points. So compassionate. Thank you.
I think we disagree. Don't take it too personally.
There are two issues here and it seems to me that they are getting confused: health and appearance.
Insofar as weight may adversely affect one's health (over- or under- weight in terms of one's BMI), this is a health issue. Living in the state of Arkansas, I see this a LOT here in the ER, where eating habits (not in terms of quantity really, but quality of food), where people resort to unhealthy fast food and junk food on a daily basis. And it takes its toll severely on the population in this area (Misissippi, across the way, is even worse).
This is not simply "their fault"-- if you were raised in such an environment, this would seem perfectly normal. I can't tell you how many people I have seen come in full arrest in their 40s!!!! And of those people, every one of them have been morbidly obese. And these people had children, or were the children of someone else--their families suffer. but they just don't know how to live healthy in a fast food culture. Of course, "physical education" isn't education about health at all, but about "playing sports."
Maintaining at least some degree of good health matters. By the same token though, just because someone doesn't have some sort of "ideal body" doesn't make them any less beautiful (my ex-wife was not slender, but I nevertheless found her physically attractive).
As far as appearance goes, yes, there is a problem when an ideal is constantly foisted upon people to make one feel guilty in not meeting some sort of standard of beauty. But this is a separate issue. And that's what makes discussing this with someone who is over- or under- weight difficult, because the two issues are so strongly associated with one another that it one needs to be very careful with this subject.
If someone wants someone to tell him or her to lose weight (for health reasons), that is what a physician is for. If one can't be skillful in expressing compassion, then it isn't very compassionate. Insofar as one's weight may be exacerbating various health issues, its worth investigating. Insofar as appearance goes, well, to hell with what anyone says. This is prejudice plain and simple. This is not a black and white issue. Health and appearance are two very different issues--they are not the same.
One may be over or under weight to a certain degree and be healthy. One may be more than just a little under or over weight and not be healthy. This window of healthy weight may vary more from one person to another depending on their individual circumstances.
Insofar as weight affects one's health, yes, weight does matter. The problem is that it is too easily conflated with appearance, conformity and guilty-- none of which have anything to do with health.
It is simply a fact that when I was labeled as obese at 212 pounds, I was quite a bit healthier than even my mom, who was 135 pounds (she is 5 foot 3 inches) who has a desk job that stresses her out 10 hours a day and then she goes home, and eats chips and dip for dinner. It IS possible. Therefore, we cannot simply assume that everyone we look at who seems to be obese is unhealthy and therefore make it our job/our place to tell them so. I never said I thought 600 pounds was ok. But there is a far wider range of possibilities than what is being considered here. Too many people relate obesity to the shows like "900 pound virgin"and other such things. When in reality most people who qualify as obese, aren't much different than the average person you see walking down the street every day, and that they very well, could be healthier than the 24 year old who is living on subway and diet coke yet is a healthy weight.