Reincarnation; why I don' t believe.

fivebells

Batchelor: Stevenson investigated something like 1,700 cases in the course of his life of which I think he says that there are 47 that he cannot explain by any other means than by past and future lives, and I agree with you that that's evidence.

He says that's evidence. He doesn't say it's strong evidence.

Ric

...what does it matter how I act in this lifetime if in the end it all goes black?

The problem with this line of reasoning is that empirically there's no obvious connection betwenn a lack of belief in post-mortem retribution and unethical behavior.

Right. So the obverse would be true as well. There's no obvious connection between unethical behavior and a lack of belief in post-mortem retribution.

..."full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".

Wow SherabDorje, I am completely missing the point you are trying to make. You just restated the same statement.

DhammaDhatu

But to use this to negate that the Buddha experienced or spoke about his past life/lives is silly and misguided.

dear moral crusader

what i write is not silly & misguided

it is accepted that this verse of the buddha is about his past mental becomings

becoming is one of the three mental asava, along with sensuality & ignorance

your view is simply your worldly interpretation



the dhamma states

The Awakened One, best of speakers,
Spoke two kinds of truths:
The conventional and the ultimate.
A third truth does not obtain.

Therein:
The speech wherewith the world converses is true
On account of its being agreed upon by the world.
The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true,
Through characterizing dhammas as they really are.

Therefore, being skilled in common usage,
False speech does not arise in the Teacher,
Who is Lord of the World,
When he speaks according to conventions.

(Mn. i. 95)

Jeffrey

There are infinite shades of a positive for rebirth. And infinite shades of a negative for rebirth. Thus it is 50 50. Or when you bring in infities it is actually beyond math to calculate.

SherabDorje

@Tess- my point is that if it's only humans that are giving meaning to existence and/or the universe, then the universe has no ultimate meaning. It all means nothing really, except what we as individuals ascribe to it. Speaking strictly in terms of meaning (@fivebells- meaning, not the benefits of meditation because this thread is about reincarnation/rebirth and not meditation)- speaking strictly in terms of meaning, if the universe has only the meaning that individual humans ascribe to it, then that is Existentialism, and really, no meaning at all.

There has to be a "bottom line" somewhere, cosmically speaking, and if there's not, then it's all meaningless.

Again, I am speaking rhetorically because I happen to believe in some kind of the passage of the stream of consciousness from one lifetime to another.

fivebells

There either is or isn't rebirth. Two possibilities. Does that make it 50 50 by your logic? Flip a coin. Equal probablity that there is and isn't a spaghetti monster.

No, that's a failure of imagination. There could be rebirth, we could all be part of some computer simulation and get transferred to another one when this life is finished, we could re-experience our lives backwards or in reversed colors, we could experience a subtly different version of our current life, and on and on. "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."

fivebells

...when you bring in infities it is actually beyond math to calculate.

Oh nonsense. Statistics deals with sets of infinite possibilities all the time.

Jeffrey

There are infinite configurations (shades) with rebirth. And infinite shades without rebirth. Just as there are infinite types of gods.

infinity divided by infinity is not 1

also infinity doesn't exist.. it is a concept.. experience is empty of inherent existence. Rebirth only points to an experience.

DhammaDhatu

You keep referring to the sixth sense and ill be honest, I have no idea what you are talking about but im pretty sure you're not talking about the movie. At least I hope ur not.

for the mind to experience sounds, it requires a sense organ, namely, the ear

fo the mind to experience its own feelings, thoughts, etc, it requires a sense organ, namely, mano or knowing, which is the sixth sense

so these reincarnation adherents are asserting there is knowing apart from brain function

when people are given anesthetic or placed into a medical coma, knowing ceases, consciousness ceases

this clearly demonstrates mind consciousness is dependent on the body, brain & nervous system

tess

I have lost control of my own tread. :-/

So many new questions, so many new valuable links and ideas. Thank you.

I have tried to start from the beginning and then from the end but I am overwhelmed by over 100 posts.

If any of the posts was directed at me, please give me a time to respond.
I really appreciate them but I am a novice here and read them slowly.



Shit, I am posting some diplomatic message;

No.
What I wanted to say is that you are opening so many new horizons for me .

I need to think about it instead of letting my ego come up with all the verbal diarrhea.

Be patient with me tolerant to my slow progress.

fivebells

@Tess- my point is that if it's only humans that are giving meaning to existence and/or the universe, then the universe has no ultimate meaning.

So what does the universe "mean" in the traditional Buddhist cosmology. Or if that's not certain, what does it mean for the universe to "mean" something?

Again, I am speaking rhetorically because I happen to believe in some kind of the passage of the stream of consciousness from one lifetime to another.

By rhetorically, do you mean hypothetically?

fivebells

also infinity doesn't exist.. it is a concept.. experience is empty of inherent existence. Rebirth only points to an experience.

Happy to stipulate that infinity doesn't exist, and that there is only a stupendously large number of equally plausible alternative hypotheses regarding post-mortem experience. It really doesn't make any difference to the reasoning.

Ric

That is like saying it is unlikely that you will catch one fish because there is the possibility of catching 1-20. And it qould be equally unlikely that there is no rebirth due to the many possibilities.

There either is or isn't rebirth. Two possibilities. Does that make it 50 50 by your logic? Flip a coin. Equal probablity that there is and isn't a spaghetti monster.

If your odds of catching a fish are 1:20 then yea it is unlikely you will get a fish in your first throw.

You guys are using physical concepts to determine non physical things. You cant quantify the odds of rebirth being true or not. Rebirth cannot be proven or disproved. The concept falls beyond science/statistics. The way modern science deals with these things is that the burden of proof is to prove something, not disprove it. Why waste time disproving dragons ? Heck, there are drawings of dragons, stories of dragons, ive seen a few on the TV. Sounds like a mystery to me...


The idea of Rebirth can also be explained in infinite number of ways, from atoms to cells to consciousness.

DhammaDhatu

I do not really give a hoot what the suttas says. I remember what I remember.

It is obvious you do not really give a hoot what the suttas say and it seems obvious your mind is attached to samsara, such as giving lusty advice to a young man to engage is unreflective sexual behaviour.

Often what we regard as "memories" are simply the imaginings of a fertile imagination.

I do recall you have already told the forum you could not accept death as a child.

Your situation is not the same as that of the Buddha.

When the Buddha saw death as a child, his mind became dispassionate and entered spontaneously into the first meditative absorption (jhana).

Later, when he grew up, he had no interest in worldly pleasures and then left his home to become a monk.

fivebells

You guys are using physical concepts to determine non physical things. You cant quantify the odds of rebirth being true or not. Rebirth cannot be proven or disproved. The concept falls beyond science/statistics. The way modern science deals with these things is that the burden of proof is to prove something, not disprove it.

You don't know what you're talking about. For exactly the reason I've outlined above, the way "modern science" deals with matters beyond any salient measurement is to SHUT UP ABOUT THEM, because you can't say anything useful except to admit your near-total ignorance. And the world would be a much more peaceful place if everyone else would shut up about the things they don't actually know, too. There are so many useful and delightful possibilities available with the things we do actually know, like the actual practices the Buddha taught, as opposed to speculative metaphysics.

tess

Oh, I am so glad you are discussing things between yourself because at least I am not under the pressure to respond.

I will be back to the previous conversations directed at me.

DhammaDhatu

In fact Christianity has formulated the laws of morality in the easiest and most supirior form:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Simple as Pie. No need to bother with karma and wierd Nibbana.

Actually, Lao Tse and the Buddha taught do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (see Tao Te Ching, Veludvâreyya Sutta, Dandavagga, etc)

Christianity teaches karma (each reaps what he sows)

Nirvana is defined as the here & now end of greed, hatred & delusion

Simple as pie?

:wtf:

This was said by the Lord...

What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.042-049x.irel.html#iti-044

fivebells

Oh, I am so glad you are discussing things between yourself because at least I am not under the pressure to respond.

I will be back to the previous conversations directed at me.

Sorry you're finding this overwhelming, tess.

tess

That is like saying it is unlikely that you will catch one fish because there is the possibility of catching 1-20. And it qould be equally unlikely that there is no rebirth due to the many possibilities.

There either is or isn't rebirth. Two possibilities. Does that make it 50 50 by your logic? Flip a coin. Equal probablity that there is and isn't a spaghetti monster.

If your odds of catching a fish are 1:20 then yea it is unlikely you will get a fish in your first throw.

You guys are using physical concepts to determine non physical things. You cant quantify the odds of rebirth being true or not. Rebirth cannot be proven or disproved. The concept falls beyond science/statistics. The way modern science deals with these things is that the burden of proof is to prove something, not disprove it. Why waste time disproving dragons ? Heck, there are drawings of dragons, stories of dragons, ive seen a few on the TV. Sounds like a mystery to me...


The idea of Rebirth can also be explained in infinite number of ways, from atoms to cells to consciousness.

I could not help to look on the last comment.

''The idea of Rebirth can also be explained in infinite number of ways, from atoms to cells to consciousness.''

I only see one way : evolution. You have said ''infinite number of ways''.

Please give me at least 3 but without dogma behind it.

PS I will be happy with 1.

:rocker:


Forget about :rocker:


It is my arrogant ego taking advantage of me.

Ric

You guys are using physical concepts to determine non physical things. You cant quantify the odds of rebirth being true or not. Rebirth cannot be proven or disproved. The concept falls beyond science/statistics. The way modern science deals with these things is that the burden of proof is to prove something, not disprove it.

You don't know what you're talking about. For exactly the reason I've outlined above, the way "modern science" deals with matters beyond any salient measurement is to SHUT UP ABOUT THEM, because you can't say anything useful except to admit your near-total ignorance. And the world would be a much more peaceful place if everyone else would shut up about the things they don't actually know, too. There are so many useful and delightful possibilities available with the things we do actually know, like the actual practices the Buddha taught, as opposed to speculative metaphysics.

Dude stfu. There is no way to test a hypothesis which lies outside the scope of science. Learn about what science does. My point is the same, it doesnt tackle meta-physical hypothesis because thats not what science does. Go take a class before you start acting like a scientist.

DhammaDhatu

Rebirth, no rebirth, reincarnation, no reincarnation. Does it really matter with regards to real life situations?

Yes, it does matter.

For people who believe in rebirth, who struggle to accommodate impermanence & not-self, such as Victor, belief in rebirth, going to heaven with Jesus, etc, provides their mind with some comfort.

This is why the Buddha taught rebirth. It can help end the suffering of those who cannot accommodate impermanence & not-self. It is compassionate.

Please think of very worldly people, for example, professional surfers. They spend everyday getting high on surfing waves. But when one of them dies, these non-religious people believe their deceased friend is now surfing waves in heaven, sending them waves, etc

Ordinary people wish to believe these things because letting go is not that easy

SherabDorje

@Tess- my point is that if it's only humans that are giving meaning to existence and/or the universe, then the universe has no ultimate meaning.

So what does the universe "mean" in the traditional Buddhist cosmology. Or if that's not certain, what does it mean for the universe to "mean" something?

Again, I am speaking rhetorically because I happen to believe in some kind of the passage of the stream of consciousness from one lifetime to another.

By rhetorically, do you mean hypothetically?

1. Beats the hell out of me. I am sometimes just going from day to day, hour to hour, sometimes minute to minute in a personal situation that has no meaning whatsoever for me. I told you before, I think out here on the forums, that I have serious health issues which make for serious psychological issues which have me in a situation that I just usually don't know WTF. So I tend to believe in "a more fortunate rebirth" if only for that reason. There's also the Buddha's "safe bet" which has been mentioned here. I am getting all the medical and psychiatric help I can at the moment, so there's that, but for me, the universe "means" something if I am burning off old bad karma and can look forward to a better and more productive next lifetime. And if that means "saving my own sorry little ass" as somebody alluded to earlier, then so be it. Quite honestly, presently, life holds very little meaning for me other than the the thought of a fortunate rebirth. I don't know WTF it means.

2. I guess you could call it hypothetical- I think the words rhetorical and hypothetical are interchangeable here. I already believe in the passage of the "consciousness-essence" or whatever so I'm just representing one side of the argument in an attempt to (try to) bring clarity to the issue. I believe that if there is no consequence for anybody that has anything to do with "me" after this life, then we're talking about complete blackness after that, and there's no way to make that meaningful except in an individual sense, that it, whatever meaning an individual may ascribe to it, and that of course varies from person to person.

That's why I myself am doing as much Pure Land mantra as I can lately. I tend to believe in what the Tibetan adepts appear to "know" about the bardo, but that is just a faith-or-intuition-based belief on my part.

Ric

Tess, ill give you two.


1. Rebirth means that your "soul" with your memories is stored and given to a new body
2. Rebirth means that your soul without any memory is stored and given to a new body

You can add all kinds of things, that it takes x amount of days, that before you come back you go somewhere else....

fivebells

Dude stfu. There is no way to test a hypothesis which lies outside the scope of science. Learn about what science does. My point is the same, it doesnt tackle meta-physical hypothesis because thats not what science does. Go take a class before you start acting like a scientist.

Actually, I am a scientist. My point was that science doesn't tackle "metaphysical hypotheses" because from a scientific perspective, it's a complete waste of time until the related experiences are accessible to measurement. By the same reasoning, speculating about post-mortem experience is a complete waste of time.

Victorious

Batchelor: Stevenson investigated something like 1,700 cases in the course of his life of which I think he says that there are 47 that he cannot explain by any other means than by past and future lives, and I agree with you that that's evidence.

He says that's evidence. He doesn't say it's strong evidence.

No I took that back remember .

But the point is SB believes there is evidence of rebirth so since you claim to have the same amount of beilief in rebirth as he does I guess you too believe...?


:clap:

Just pulling your leg... :vimp:

DhammaDhatu

First of all no-self is a literal translation of Anatta. The Buddha did not teach that there was no self. Actually he stated that this was in fact as wrong to believe as if there is a self.

Anatta means "not-self"

The Buddha did not say what you are saying.

The Buddha said in countless discourses the five aggregates are empty of self and anything belonging to self.

The Buddha said thoughts of "self" are the product of ignorance.

Ignorance produces many mental creations, such as ideas about 'self' and past lives.

Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"

"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.085.than.html

Sabre

Well, it counts as information, I suppose, but it's not very informative, because there are too many plausible alternative explanations for his cases.

Also, it's over four years since his death, now. But maybe his reincarnated self hasn't learned numbers yet? Or maybe reincarnation doesn't work that way, and he just hasn't come back to earth yet? Or maybe it's just that his reincarnation has forgotten the combination he was supposed to bring back to his department members? That's one of the problems with his "research." There's no coherent conceptual framework to it. No one knows how reincarnation/rebirth would actually work, so there's very little in the way of hypotheses to test.

Did you read the actual work before commenting like this? Because he already gave arguments against all those things you -and the post you are linking to- are questioning in a very scientific way.

No need to be degrading or to make fun of someone's work who spent his entire mature life researching something he thought needed to be shown to the world, I would say.

Nobody knows how exactly the Big Bang works, still most people believe it happened. You can look back and make reasonable conclusions.

Sabre

Ric

Dude stfu. There is no way to test a hypothesis which lies outside the scope of science. Learn about what science does. My point is the same, it doesnt tackle meta-physical hypothesis because thats not what science does. Go take a class before you start acting like a scientist.

Actually, I am a scientist. My point was that science doesn't tackle "metaphysical hypotheses" because from a scientific perspective, it's a complete waste of time until the related experiences are accessible to measurement. By the same reasoning, speculating about post-mortem experience is a complete waste of time.

well..we are saying the same thing...I guess its the difference between a engineer and a scientist. Maybe not quite the same thing, but similar.

fivebells

I believe that if there is no consequence for anybody that has anything to do with "me" after this life, then we're talking about complete blackness after that, and there's no way to make that meaningful except in an individual sense, that it, whatever meaning an individual may ascribe to it, and that of course varies from person to person.

But how is the meaning you outlined in part 1. meaningful in something other than an individual sense? (Not that there's anything wrong with deriving meaning on that level. Obviously I think that's the only level on which there is any meaning.)

Victorious

I have never said that the ‘’teaching of morality is the only goal of Buddhism’’

Never said you did. Someboby else implied it. You hijacked our conversation .

As to all other religions: I have dismissed them from the beginning.

I am an atheist. / ok, with a little part of an agnosticism/.


However, I am mesmerized by Buddhism because:

- of its huge knowledge of human’s psychology.
- great stand on ethics
- having so many right ideas prior to human science reasoning.


I don’t know where my compassion as an opposition to my DNA comes from BUT I KNOW that the answer is far being simple as pie.

The goal of Buddhism is primarily Nibbana and not ethics. Which was my point. Which is not as simple as Pie.

fivebells

Did you read the actual work before commenting like this? Because he already gave arguments against all those things you -and the post you are linking to- are questioning in a very scientific way.

I've read summaries of his work. It's quite a large body. Do you have anything reasonably concise which you think I ought to read in addition?

No need to be degrading or to make fun of someone's work who spent his entire mature life researching something he thought needed to be shown to the world, I would say.

Oh, for pete's sake. I suppose we might hurt the feelings of his reincarnated self. He put his work out there in an academic context, knowing that it would be subject to critical examination. It is fair game.

DhammaDhatu

Batchelor: Stevenson investigated something like 1,700 cases in the course of his life of which I think he says that there are 47 that he cannot explain by any other means than by past and future lives, and I agree with you that that's evidence.

The assumption above is simply false

These things can be explained by other means

All learned Buddhists accept the minds of some people are capable of supernormal psychic powers, such as transmitting thoughts into the minds of others

The scriptures report the Buddha often taught others by means of thought transmission

It is noticable it is almost exclusively children that report "past lives". why?

because the minds of young children can be easily manipulated by those devas with psychic power

once the children get older, it will be to freaky for them. they will notice the thought messages are external

These things can be explained by other means

:coffee:

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha, on Vulture Peak Mountain.

And on that occasion Ven. Sona was staying near Rajagaha in the Cool Wood.

Then, as Ven. Sona was meditating in seclusion [after doing walking meditation until the skin of his soles was split & bleeding], this train of thought arose in his awareness: "Of the Blessed One's disciples who have aroused their persistence, I am one, but my mind is not released from the fermentations through lack of clinging/sustenance. Now, my family has enough wealth that it would be possible to enjoy wealth & make merit. What if I were to disavow the training, return to the lower life, enjoy wealth, & make merit?"

Then the Blessed One, as soon as he perceived with his awareness the train of thought in Ven. Sona's awareness — as a strong man might stretch out his bent arm or bend his outstretched arm — disappeared from Vulture Peak Mountain, appeared in the Cool Wood right in front of Ven. Sona, and sat down on a prepared seat.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.055.than.html

fivebells

All learned Buddhists accept the minds of some people are capable of supernormal psychic powers, such as transmitting thoughts into the minds of others

The scriptures report the Buddha often taught others by means of thought transmission

It is noticable it is almost exclusively children that report "past lives". why?

because the minds of young children can be easily manipulated by those devas with psychic power

once the children get older, it will be to freaky for them. they will notice the thought messages are external

These things can be explained by other means

:coffee:

Seriously??

DhammaDhatu

Seriously??

I am simply asserting there are other means of explanation.

Sutta reference above & below.

And what is the miracle of psychic power? There is the case where a monk wields manifold psychic powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

And what is the miracle of telepathy? There is the case where a monk reads the minds, the mental events, the thoughts, the ponderings of other beings, other individuals, [saying,] 'Such is your thinking, here is where your thinking is, thus is your mind.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html

fivebells

Dude, I'm doing the wrong practice. I ain't got nothin' like that.

Sabre

Hi fivebells,

I don't know what you've read exactly, so how can I recommend anything specifically? Since you claimed there is no information on the subject, I'm just giving a suggestion that there is information available, it's up for you to decide whether you read it or not.

Whatever you think of the guy himself is not important. I was saying I don't think it is wise to make fun of his work. (You can't hurt the feelings of a piece of work. ) I think an academic work should get an academic response, so we could have discussed the manner properly here.

Anyway, since that is apparently not happening, this discussion is going nowhere I think. Everybody just needs to meditate, so maybe they can one day see it for themselves I guess.


Metta,
Sabre

SherabDorje

I believe that if there is no consequence for anybody that has anything to do with "me" after this life, then we're talking about complete blackness after that, and there's no way to make that meaningful except in an individual sense, that it, whatever meaning an individual may ascribe to it, and that of course varies from person to person.

But how is the meaning you outlined in part 1. meaningful in something other than an individual sense? (Not that there's anything wrong with deriving meaning on that level. Obviously I think that's the only level on which there is any meaning.)

I'm really not sure I understand your question, but that doesn't matter because I have already said that at this point in my life I just don't know WTF.

I'm going on the Buddha's "safe bet" teaching now.

One conceivable "meaning" for this worldly existence in Buddhism is that this world is the place in which we are challenged to overcome and maintain faith in the Three Jewels and continue to try to practice Bodhicitta. But that's just a faith-based guess on my part.

"Make me an angel that flies from Montgomery- make me a poster in an old rodeo. Just give me one thing that I can hold on to- to believe in this livin' is just a hard way to go."- John Prine

Victorious

Dude, I'm doing the wrong practice. I ain't got nothin' like that.

If you dont stop putting my good friend DD down like this I will levitate myself to canada and put a rebirth memory into your left eye.

Be warned.

/Victor

Dakini

It is noticable it is almost exclusively children that report "past lives". why?

because the minds of young children can be easily manipulated by those devas with psychic power :coffee:

sorry to spill your coffee, but who thought this up? You? Children gradually forget their past life memories, as the events of this life distract them more and more. Each year, so many new experiences fill their minds, they begin to forget the more distant past. And they become ever more conditioned to the material world, so they lose their connection with the ultimate reality, the bardo state they inhabited before birth, and the previous life before birth.

DhammaDhatu

Dude, I'm doing the wrong practice. I ain't got nothin' like that.

Not all arahants had these abilities, eg. Sariputta, despite him having the most lucid wisdom

"Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken, ten benefits can be expected. Which ten?

[5] "He wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space. He dives in & out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

[6] "He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html

DhammaDhatu

sorry to spill your coffee, but who thought this up? You? Children gradually forget their past life memories, as the events of this life distract them more and more. Each year, so many new experiences fill their minds, they begin to forget the more distant past. And they become ever more conditioned to the material world, so they lose their connection with the ultimate reality, the bardo state they inhabited before birth, and the previous life before birth.

Sure, like the Dalai Lama states he cannot remember any past lives or what made him choose the sacred objects as a child

Has the Dalai Lama has lost his connection with ultimate reality?

:eek2:

The things you are mentioning are not related to ULTIMATE REALITY

Ultimate reality = impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, not-self, emptiness

best to learn your Buddhism

Dakini

Oh, and psychic devas do relate to Ultimate Reality? :wtf:

Victorious

Dude stfu. There is no way to test a hypothesis which lies outside the scope of science. Learn about what science does. My point is the same, it doesnt tackle meta-physical hypothesis because thats not what science does. Go take a class before you start acting like a scientist.

Actually, I am a scientist. My point was that science doesn't tackle "metaphysical hypotheses" because from a scientific perspective, it's a complete waste of time until the related experiences are accessible to measurement. By the same reasoning, speculating about post-mortem experience is a complete waste of time.

Relativity
String theory
Hell the entire field of quantum
Neutrons
Electrons
Atoms
Black holes
Neutrino stars
Black matter
Earth like planets

More or less all revolutionating theories where "tackled", discussed, theorised about, argumented over etc pretty well before they were mesured... or so I thougth?

Was that a waste of time?

DhammaDhatu

Oh, and psychic devas do relate to Ultimate Reality? :wtf:

no, they do not

they are conditioned phenomena (just like mental imaginations about past lives are conditioned phenomena)

Seeing this drawback to the miracle of psychic power, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated and disgusted with the miracle of psychic power.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html

zidangus

It is noticable it is almost exclusively children that report "past lives". why?

because the minds of young children can be easily manipulated by those devas with psychic power :coffee:

Okkkk,that sounds emm different, I have never heard that one before I must admit.


Metta to all sentient beings

DhammaDhatu

Okkkk,that sounds emm different, I have never heard that one before I must admit.

true

you heard it first, here, on New Buddhist

Ric

Dude stfu. There is no way to test a hypothesis which lies outside the scope of science. Learn about what science does. My point is the same, it doesnt tackle meta-physical hypothesis because thats not what science does. Go take a class before you start acting like a scientist.

Actually, I am a scientist. My point was that science doesn't tackle "metaphysical hypotheses" because from a scientific perspective, it's a complete waste of time until the related experiences are accessible to measurement. By the same reasoning, speculating about post-mortem experience is a complete waste of time.

Relativity
String theory
Hell the entire field of quantum
Neutrons
Electrons
Atoms
Black holes
Neutrino stars
Black matter
Earth like planets

More or less all revolutionating theories where "tackled", discussed, theorised about, argumented over etc pretty well before they were mesured... or so I thougth?

Was that a waste of time?

They were all speculated for sure, but never in the supernatural sense. These things are predicted by math or encountered by experiments. How would you go about proving rebirth ? what test would you create that would be reproducible and always give the same result ?

Victorious

They were all speculated for sure, but never in the supernatural sense. These things are predicted by math or encountered by experiments. How would you go about proving rebirth ? what test would you create that would be reproducible and always give the same result ?

So because nobody has tried it or know how to do it you should just give up? Where would science be today if everybody followed that advice?

/Victor

compassionate_warrior

your view is simply your worldly interpretation

No, actually, it came from a thread on this forum about rebirth. There was a reference to how to interpret the Buddha's recollection of his past "abodes".

vinlyn

@Tess- my point is that if it's only humans

Only humans? Who else is there?