Reincarnation; why I don' t believe.

Victorious

Shera and Victorious make a common argument Christians make that I think is very superficial. Namely that if you dont believe you will be judged why treat ppl well, why not go out and try to screw everyone over and always seek pleasure. To me that is just a false proposition, I chose and want to be good because that is what I want to be, even if no one will judge me ever and if my life ends and thats it, I would still rather leave a positive mark. If your moral code is solely based on an idea of continuing life or judgment then I think it is that person who has to re-evaluate his stance. I choose to do good, I am not compelled.

I think maybe you have a littebit too livley fantasy...I was referring to a good family life with my woman and my sons...

And what has doing good to do with buddhist training? I know how to behave but doing good will not get you to nibbana. That is totally irrelevant to the issue.

So this is really no good refutal of anything I have said.

I have to admit that I read your comments the way that Ric read them.

I think what Ric and I are saying is that getting to nibbana is not all there is in life, particularly when we don't KNOW FOR A FACT that that is the way it all works. And so, we chose to live a life that is positive, not because we feel compelled to due to scriptures from any source, but because we think it is the right thing to do.

:clap: :rockon:

That conclusion You made the three of you is exactly the reason why it is vital to understand rebirth.

But dont worry with age and experience and in your case a heap of luck you will get there eventually stringhoppers.

/Victor

lol does rebirth automatically give you a sense of superiority or do you acquire that with age? or luck?

Hard and diligent work.

Victorious

When you lose your job or wallet you know on the whole it does not really matter. And it is easier to have empathy with the thief since you know that once upon a time you have been in the same position as the thief and sometime in the future you will be again.

/Victor

This is very close to the recent ideas of Quantum physics and multiple universes.

That idea is not so recent, the layer hypothesis is newer.
Still Buddha beat them both 2500 years ago. Makes you think right?

Victorious

Victorious

You said:

“I have heard testimonial from atheists that do not believe in rebirth about past life memories.”

Could you kindly give me some links or reference?

Sorry I cant. The two of them do not wish to become known. They do not believe in rebirth and would rather forget all of it.

fivebells

We talk here a lot about previous experiences, memory of previous lives.

What about DNA memory?

Maybe all those experiences have something to do with it?

I am a geneticist. My last job was in a neuroscience research facility. We know basically nothing about how memory works. Early experience definitely has some epigenetic impact, but as far as I know, there is no evidence for DNA modification playing a role in episodic memory. Can't rule it out, but it's speculation on a par with theories about post mortem experience.

fivebells

Sorry I cant. The two of them do not wish to become known. They do not believe in rebirth and would rather forget all of it.

I would be in the same boat. That is, even if I had some kind of memory of rebirth, that would not convince me of the memories' reality. It would take some kind of highly accurate, information-rich predictions based on the memories to get me to take them seriously as possibly representing some kind of objective reality. Minds play tricks like that all the time.

son_of_dhamma

If someone points out that Nibbana is purposeless without reproduction of consciousness across births,
then the question is slyly excused by the Buddha's teachings of morality.
Questions don't vanish when they're not answered, and neither did the Buddha's entire purpose of teaching vanish when it was not understood by those whose minds were unfortunately yet naturally quite covered with the dust of worldliness. He wouldn't have taught the end of suffering if it could be gained easily by death--he wouldn't have dedicated his life to the truth, he wouldn't have remained in the world during his moment of hesitation to teach, he would have vanished out of eternity without uttering another word.

tess

We talk here a lot about previous experiences, memory of previous lives.

What about DNA memory?

Maybe all those experiences have something to do with it?

I am a geneticist. My last job was in a neuroscience research facility. We know basically nothing about how memory works. Early experience definitely has some epigenetic impact, but as far as I know, there is no evidence for DNA modification playing a role in episodic memory. Can't rule it out, but it's speculation on a par with theories about post mortem experience.

I am really looking foward for us to exchanging the ideas.

I am also with a neurology background.

Talking here about DNA memory was a long shot but at least it has brought you here.


I wish I could talk more now but it is down to saving what is left of a human brain after an accident.

I will have a huge comfort in believing that if things go wrong.....something would be there after all for this 31 year old.

At the same time don’t tell me that it was his karma to drive a motorcycle 120 km per hour.

Namasti.

Victorious

@Tess say are you living in southern Norway with your husband by any chance? Just checking.

Sorry I cant. The two of them do not wish to become known. They do not believe in rebirth and would rather forget all of it.

I would be in the same boat. That is, even if I had some kind of memory of rebirth, that would not convince me of the memories' reality. It would take some kind of highly accurate, information-rich predictions based on the memories to get me to take them seriously as possibly representing some kind of objective reality. Minds play tricks like that all the time.

There is no reality... There is only anatta,anicca and dukkha.

fivebells

You're right, I'm moving from my dharma hat to my scientist hat. But most of this thread has been aboout epistemological standards on the level of relative truth. No one seems to want to admit that worrying about rebirth is a waste of time from the perspective of the Buddha's core teachings.

DhammaDhatu

One thing we can agree on is the aim of getting out of the cycle of rebirths is the the right path.

Getting out of the cycle of rebirths is not a "path".

It may be a "goal" but it is certainly not a "path".

But to actually believe in such a goal will block the path.

If you want to get rid of something, believing in it will not help you.

The path defined by the Buddha is getting rid of craving, attachment & self-view.

The "birth" (jati) the Buddha was refering to is the birth of "self" view.

The Buddha's path makes sense but the path of "getting out of the cycle of rebirths" makes no sense, imo.

DhammaDhatu

No one seems to want to admit that worrying about rebirth is a waste of time from the perspective of the Buddha's core teachings.

This is why the Buddha taught rebirth. Due to craving, it is not easy to penetrate the core teachings.

This Dhamma is not easily realized
by those overcome
with aversion & passion.

What is abstruse, subtle,
deep,
hard to see,
going against the flow —
those delighting in passion,
cloaked in the mass of darkness,
won't see.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html

DhammaDhatu

DhammaDhatu

Are you saying that Buddha never actually believed in the concept of rebirth ?

Where did I say this? I did not say this nor did I say the contrary.

:-/

zidangus

Where did I say this? I did not say this nor did I say the contrary.

:-/

Sorry I must have misunderstood your posts. Please accept my apologies.

Metta to all sentient beings

DhammaDhatu

NOTE that my ‘’moral spine’’ does not represent or agrees with the laws of evolution.

One half of evolution requires morality, otherwise species would not care for eachother & not survive. But the other half of evolution is dog-eat-dog

DhammaDhatu

Hard and diligent work.

I doubt it... :-/

DhammaDhatu

We know basically nothing about how memory works.

Surely, you understand loss of memory occurs with brain injury and enhancement of memory can occur by administering certain kinds of drugs.

DhammaDhatu

Please accept my apologies.

Accepted.

And metta to you, also.

DhammaDhatu

If someone points out that Nibbana is purposeless without reproduction of consciousness across births....

The Buddha did not teach what you are allegedly pointing out

The Buddha taught Nibbana is the here & now end of greed, hatred & delusion

DhammaDhatu

not understood by those whose minds were unfortunately yet naturally quite covered with the dust of worldliness.

It sounds like you are excluding yourself from "those whose minds covered with the dust of worldliness"

DhammaDhatu

He wouldn't have taught the end of suffering if it could be gained easily by death--he wouldn't have dedicated his life to the truth...

Your point is moot.

To commit suicide is not a Dhammic act. This would mean one's mind has aversion.

The Nibbana the Buddha found is the mind free from greed, aversion & delusion.

In the Dhammadàyàda Sutta, the Buddha's "sons" or "heirs" are defined as those whose minds are cleansed from mental taints or mental defilements.

In this sutta, rebirth is not even mentioned.

The view of Nibbana as the end of physical rebirths is some kind of Hinduism, that was later introduced into Buddhism.

The Buddha taught Nibbana is the end of "becoming"; the end of the birth of "self-view".

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/003-dhammadayada-sutta-e1.html

Yacababy

DD... I just gotta say.. :clap: :rockon:

DhammaDhatu

...he would have vanished out of eternity without uttering another word.

Actually, the Buddha's mind attained Nibbana when he was 35 years old & he did not vanish. However, it is your view that holds Nibbana is vanishing out of eternity. What you posted just contradicts itself.

The Buddha not only taught rebirth belief sides with morality. He also taught rebirth belief sides with attachment (upadhi) & mental defilements (asava). Nibbana is defined as the end of attachment and the end of the asava.

The word "dhamma" is used by most, if not all, Indian religions. So we can be the "son" of different dhammas, just like Jesus was the Son of Brahma (God, the Father).

vinlyn

NOTE that my ‘’moral spine’’ does not represent or agrees with the laws of evolution.

One half of evolution requires morality, otherwise species would not care for eachother & not survive. But the other half of evolution is dog-eat-dog

The concept of evolution has nothing to do with morality. What does the morality of mollusks or brachiopods have to do with evolution? Or are you saying that evolution involves on the human species?

DhammaDhatu

All animals care for their offspring. This is morality.

Life forms that destroy their environment (thru overconsumption) destroy themselves.

Morality is a very important part of evolution.

Victorious

You're right, I'm moving from my dharma hat to my scientist hat. But most of this thread has been aboout epistemological standards on the level of relative truth. No one seems to want to admit that worrying about rebirth is a waste of time from the perspective of the Buddha's core teachings.

Sorry I misread. I agree worrying about anything is a wate of time when you have gotten to a certain point on the path but before you get there worry is a part of your life and you need to deal with it.

federica

I got to 430 posts before it was shut down on my first rebirth thread.
lol.

Guess what?

Tess, read it at your leisure, and see what you think.
If you want this re-opened let me know.

Circles within circles, wheels within wheels.
Anyone closer to proving their point indisputably?

No, I thought not.
Thanks to all.