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Direct insight
zidangus
Veteran
I have been on this forum a while now, and it seems that a lot of people have a really good grasp of the Buddha's Dharma and understand the teachings very well from a theoretical point. However, I am just wondering if there are any members who have actually gained direct insight into Buddhas teachings through meditation. I have not gained any sort of insight in meditation that I feel went beyond my theoretical understanding of the Dharma, which may reflect the lack of time I spend meditating.
Of course I try to put Buddha's teachings into practice in every day life and I know they have made a positive influence on me as a person and definitely gave me the understanding and skills to overcome a lot of situations, but again I don't think I have experienced anything in meditation I would consider as insight.
Anyway it would be nice to know if anyone has gained some sort of insight while in meditation that they feel went above their theoretical understanding of the Dharma. And if there is anyone, it would be nice to know if this insight has changed their life in anyway.
Metta to all sentient beings
Of course I try to put Buddha's teachings into practice in every day life and I know they have made a positive influence on me as a person and definitely gave me the understanding and skills to overcome a lot of situations, but again I don't think I have experienced anything in meditation I would consider as insight.
Anyway it would be nice to know if anyone has gained some sort of insight while in meditation that they feel went above their theoretical understanding of the Dharma. And if there is anyone, it would be nice to know if this insight has changed their life in anyway.
Metta to all sentient beings
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Comments
Metta to all sentient beings
As I heard Ajahn Chah once said: If you haven't cried at least three times, you haven't really started practicing. So.. back to the cushion I guess.
I don't think insight really works as something obtained. When we have thoughts in meditation, we typically set them free to work on observation and focus.
I consider insight to be what happens when our stilled minds walk up to a new form, notices its qualities and essentially can comprehend its nature. For instance, if you were to walk up to a wagon and see that it had three wheels, and a wheel laying next to it, insight would be that the wheel belongs on that other axle. Not from memorization or learning, or projection of how the wagon should be, but from simply seeing the nature of the wagon and recognizing its interconnected parts.
We can encounter this in meditation, but it isn't very useful except in learning to let go of what we're seeing. It isn't helpful to the wagon if we get swept into the notion of insight, or congratulate ourselves on the seeing. Rather, it is a means to help us mend the wagon. Or in other words, to relate to our experience more skillfully, more clearly.
Insight in meditation isn't really something grand... its closer to an oops than an ah ha. Ah ha is when we get the wagon rolling again, which happens more easily when our minds are still during meditation. Because, we are more likely to be open and available in the moment we encounter the form.
With warmth,
Matt
What if the wheel was broken :-)
I dont even know what to make of that video. I saw quite a few "former [some profession]" which doesnt seem good. Like you reach a high level of understanding and you drop out of society. Also all this talk about we are living in a dream seems like a bit of drivel. Having to go to the bathroom is as real as it gets, its no dream.
Zid,
Im pretty new to meditation but I have gained what I would think is some insight into the nature of our existence. When the meditation clock hits 30 min I feel a tremendous struggle to stay seated and continue meditating. Its almost like every fiber of my body wants me to stop meditating and this leads me to insight on how little control we have over the mind. How it doesnt like abrupt change. Its a lot easier to have gradual change.
Which is pretty interesting to think also in terms of Buddhism. Everything is changing yet changes are usually gradual and slow. A table wont always be a table but it sure can take a long time before it stops being a table.
What a wonderful insight, to know that theory is not understanding, and understanding is not necessarily realisation, and realisation even is not yet actualisation - that is the Buddha life itself.
Many thanks for your wonderful inquiry and open mind..
Yes it is true, I think at least, that theory and even super comprehension of theory is not the same as genuine insight. Although unfortunately some people do seem content with theory only. And what do I mean by genuine insight? I mean the insight practiced by all Buddhas and all Patriarchs of our generation and beyond. Genuine peace and stilling of the fires cannot be mistaken for mere intellectual gossip. It can but there is also life, and if we are lucky, good teachers to help us along the way.
Here on forums we all, at least I presuppose, start with intellectual gossip. I know this, I learnt this, my Dhamma is bigger than your Dharma or alternatively, I am so compassionate and watch me glow.
The difference lies in this: practice. With practice the wears have an opportunity to be worn away. Without practice, one is prone to only become an intellectual giant and maybe even hypocrite, the wares of certainty are very strong and as an old friend once said: 'With doubt conquered, ignorance is invincible'. Keep up your good practice and keep an open mind. With time, and genuine actual factual practice which includes meditation, insights are not too far away...
Best wishes,
Abu
Best wishes,
Abu
I think for a Buddhist starting out on the Buddhist path (which is what I consider myself to be), I would guess that meditation becomes secondary to study, simply because a person needs to judge if Buddhism makes sense to them and they understand from a theoretical point what Buddhism stands for. However, at some point ( a point I don't think I have reached), I think study must become secondary to meditation as genuine insight is sought.
At the moment for me the balance between the two is around 70% study and 30% meditation, which I think reflects how far I am on the Buddhist path (i.e not that far). I hoping I can even this out more in the future.
Metta to all sentient beings
Metta to all sentient beings
Of course it's real, but he explains it like it is a dream in lack of better words to describe his experience. I don't think all of them are Buddhists, so that could explain why they don't use the usual terms.
I think monks live a very non-delusional life and can have a very important role in society, they are not tuned out. But or course lay life can be a good teacher and today and in the Buddha's time lots of lay persons achieved the first glimpse of nibbana, so one doesn't have to leave lay life per se for this. But the serenity of a -partly- secluded life helps the practice of course.
If you want a nice introduction on emptiness I suggest you read Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form by Thich Nhat Hanh. He has a gift to bring every teaching in a beautiful way.
With metta,
Sabre
Metta to all sentient beings
I take the middle path
Also, what is more real then reaching the moon ? Thats why I get a bit lost when ppl start saying, the ultimate truth is emptiness or stuff like this is all a dream. To me the ultimate reality is reaching the moon, the more I think of it, the ultimate reality is math....it never fails. Just think about it, we calculated a bunch of things, constructed a rocket, landed on the moon and came back....the ultimate truth...it worked.
it´s an interesting distinction: theory vs insight. I suppose it comes down to theory being understanding throught reasoning, whereas insight is understanding without prior reasoning; this is why you can teach theory, but not insight. I'd say that the insight comes when the time is ripe. I cannot know what is standing between me and insight, so my personal approach is to create an open space by reminding me that "I don't know".
Metta to all sentient beings
Now if I could only learn to never grab on to things that are not actually real. However, this is quite difficult!
But, later, the Buddha's theory to describe the way to insight resulted in hundreds, even thousands, of people gaining the same insight as him.
You can think whatever you want about deep genuine insight as something that cannot be taught intellectually.
However, the facts of the matter are as stated in your original posts, namely:
:-/
buddha would make a nice drink company. think about it.
thus through thinking you cannot grasp truth.
only in being can you be truth. and from "being" you can understand truth.
being > thinking
they won't teach this in buddhist school.
If one aspires to insight, the mind must abandon all judgments.
In the abandoning of all judgments, one's mind must have no doubts at all.
The mind must be committed & fearless. No "teacher" can help anyone here.
The abandoning of all judgments, is the path.
Any insight, will occur in its own accord.
The ultimate insight is that of Emptiness. For there to be the 'Big Emptiness', the path must begin with 'small emptiness'.
The abandoning of all judgments, is the path.
Best wishes
Also, this conversation is probably going to be confused, because "insight meditation" is very different from the kind of insight you seem to be talking about. Insight meditation can also be understood as developing a connection with a part of the Buddha's teaching, but actually it is more like developing a skill in relating to experience according to that teaching.
It is obvious also that the mind of a bigot or a believer is the mind of no doubt. It is the unwavering belief and no doubt that causes that bomber to bomb and believe in heavens afterwards and it is also the mind of the believer that can only recycle Buddhist theory, but may not have yet reached its genuine teaching.
Be committed and fearless? Have no doubts? That is the training in some institutions but it is not ours. Any thing that arises like that is a result of a training but not the steps of our training.
The faith or lack of doubt pointed to in our teachings is just one of experience, plain and simple. Buddhism works, but its miracles can never canvassed by mere words and those that cling only at the intellectual understanding just are not as happy.
Best wishes and hope it all goes well.
I hope someday through practice, I can start to eat that pie instead of talking about it.
Best wishes to you also
Metta to all sentient beings
Taken from
Sutra of Hui Neng: Chapter 7: Temperament and Circumstances
"Should we be able, upon being taught, to grasp and understand thoroughly the teaching of Enlightenment-knowledge, then our inherent quality or true nature, i.e., the Enlightenment-knowledge, would have an opportunity to manifest itself. You should not misinterpret the text, and come to the conclusion that Buddha-knowledge is something special to Buddha and not common to us all because you happen to find in the Sutra this passage, 'To open the eyes for the sight of Buddha-knowledge, to show the sight of Buddha-knowledge, etc.' Such a misinterpretation would amount to slandering Buddha and blaspheming the Sutra. Since he is a Buddha, he is already in possession of this Enlightenment-knowledge and there is no occasion for himself to open his eyes for it. You should therefore accept the interpretation that Buddha-knowledge is the Buddha-knowledge of your own mind and not that of any other Buddha.
http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Sutra_of_Hui_Neng:_Chapter_7:_Temperament_and_Circumstances
Metta to all sentient beings
Just keep practicing the path. Keep it fun. Each meditation session will give some small insights. Also daily mindfulness can do this. One day you might hit something big and you'll laugh.
Every now and then there is somebody asking about more profound meditation experiences on this forum, so for sure it is possible. There is more to it than intellectual understanding.
With metta,
Sabre
Metta to all sentient beings
I will keep it fun, and who knows one day my meditations might lead me down a nice path.
I should say thanks for everyone who has posted, your replies have certainly made me reflect and try to understand where I am and where I want to go with my practice, and also highlighted to me just how important it is to develop spiritually as well as intellectually.
With metta to you also Sabre
Metta to all sentient beings
http://wahiduddin.net/views/buddhi.htm
It cites The Dhammapada by Eknath Easwaran,
it looks an interesting translation of the Dhammapada, has anyone read this translation ?
Metta to all sentient beings
"In the abandoning of all judgments, one's mind must have no doubts at all."
It appears to me that you took the sub-phrase of having no doubts out of its context (i.e. "In the abandoning of all judgments"), and so, in my opinion, your comments on having no doubts did not address the text that was posted by Dhamma Dhatu.
Is this "our" a certain religious sect?
To use Floating Abu's analogy of the pie. I think one can say that this world has many "pies", say 100 pies or so, some are quite nutritious and some are rotten. Correct intellectual understanding shows which ones to eat and which ones to not eat. But of course, just knowing which particular pies to eat does not mean that you have eaten them. But still it is quite helpful to know which ones to eat and which ones to not eat.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html
"As its title suggests, the subject of the Sammaditthi Sutta is right view. The analysis of right view undertaken in the sutta brings us to the very core of the Dhamma, since right view constitutes the correct understanding of the central teachings of the Buddha, the teachings which confer upon the Buddha's doctrine its own unique and distinctive stamp. Though the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. Hence, to confirm the importance of right view, the Buddha places it at the very beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path. Elsewhere in the Suttas the Buddha calls right view the forerunner of the path (pubbangama), which gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors.
Right view, as explained in the commentary to the Sammaditthi Sutta, has a variety of aspects, but it might best be considered as twofold: conceptual right view, which is the intellectual grasp of the principles enunciated in the Buddha's teaching, and experiential right view, which is the wisdom that arises by direct penetration of the teaching. Conceptual right view, also called the right view in conformity with the truths (saccanulomika-sammaditthi), is a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma arrived at by study of the Buddha's teachings and deep examination of their meaning. Such understanding, though conceptual rather than experiential, is not dry and sterile. When rooted in faith in the Triple Gem and driven by a keen aspiration to realize the truth embedded in the formulated principles of the Dhamma, it serves as a critical phase in the development of wisdom (pañña), for it provides the germ out of which experiential right view gradually evolves.
Experiential right view is the penetration of the truth of the teaching in one's own immediate experience. Thus it is also called right view that penetrates the truths (saccapativedha-sammaditthi). This type of right view is aroused by the practice of insight meditation guided by a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma. To arrive at direct penetration, one must begin with a correct conceptual grasp of the teaching and transform that grasp from intellectual comprehension to direct perception by cultivating the threefold training in morality, concentration and wisdom. If conceptual right view van be compared to a hand, a hand that grasps the truth by way of concepts, then experiential right view can be compared to an eye — the eye of wisdom that sees directly into the true nature of existence ordinarily hidden from us by our greed, aversion and delusion."