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It is obvious also that the mind of a bigot or a believer is the mind of no doubt. It is the unwavering belief and no doubt that causes that bomber to bomb. It is obvious you have been reading too much theory
Abu
For me, the examples above are not applicable. When the mind abandons all judgments, with complete confidence this is the path to insight, without any doubts whatsover, it is not possible for that mind to be bigoted or to bomb.
To be bigoted & to bomb, there must first be the mind of judgment. In the abandoning of all judgements, to be bigoted & to bomb is not possible.
Now, I must reiterate, for the sake of certainty, for the sake of end all doubts in the path, the abandoning all judgements is the geniune path.
Please have confidence in this. As the 3rd Zen Patriarch said, about having complete doubtless faith in mind: "The way is like vast space".
As Jesus said: "Believe! Why do you doubt?"
Warm regards
DD
Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself.
When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that.
When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.
The Discourse on Right View: The Sammaditthi Sutta and its Commentary speaks to this very subject of intellectual understanding vs experiential understanding. It is a very good read. The message that I get from it is that correct intellectual understanding, although it does not directly cause freedom, is still valuable because it gives support to the attainment of actual wisdom which causes freedom.
To use Floating Abu's analogy of the pie. I think one can say that this world has many "pies", say 100 pies or so, some are quite nutritious and some are rotten. Correct intellectual understanding shows which ones to eat and which ones to not eat. But of course, just knowing which particular pies to eat does not mean that you have eaten them. But still it is quite helpful to know which ones to eat and which ones to not eat.
"As its title suggests, the subject of the Sammaditthi Sutta is right view. The analysis of right view undertaken in the sutta brings us to the very core of the Dhamma, since right view constitutes the correct understanding of the central teachings of the Buddha, the teachings which confer upon the Buddha's doctrine its own unique and distinctive stamp. Though the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. Hence, to confirm the importance of right view, the Buddha places it at the very beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path. Elsewhere in the Suttas the Buddha calls right view the forerunner of the path (pubbangama), which gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors.
Right view, as explained in the commentary to the Sammaditthi Sutta, has a variety of aspects, but it might best be considered as twofold: conceptual right view, which is the intellectual grasp of the principles enunciated in the Buddha's teaching, and experiential right view, which is the wisdom that arises by direct penetration of the teaching. Conceptual right view, also called the right view in conformity with the truths (saccanulomika-sammaditthi), is a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma arrived at by study of the Buddha's teachings and deep examination of their meaning. Such understanding, though conceptual rather than experiential, is not dry and sterile. When rooted in faith in the Triple Gem and driven by a keen aspiration to realize the truth embedded in the formulated principles of the Dhamma, it serves as a critical phase in the development of wisdom (pañña), for it provides the germ out of which experiential right view gradually evolves.
Experiential right view is the penetration of the truth of the teaching in one's own immediate experience. Thus it is also called right view that penetrates the truths (saccapativedha-sammaditthi). This type of right view is aroused by the practice of insight meditation guided by a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma. To arrive at direct penetration, one must begin with a correct conceptual grasp of the teaching and transform that grasp from intellectual comprehension to direct perception by cultivating the threefold training in morality, concentration and wisdom. If conceptual right view van be compared to a hand, a hand that grasps the truth by way of concepts, then experiential right view can be compared to an eye — the eye of wisdom that sees directly into the true nature of existence ordinarily hidden from us by our greed, aversion and delusion."
Thanks seeker242, I agree completely, in that having an intellectual understanding of the Buddha's Dharma can only take you so far on the Buddhist path, and that "penetration of the truth of the teaching in one's own immediate experience" is needed to finally get to the end of the path.
...having an intellectual understanding of the Buddha's Dharma can only take you so far on the Buddhist path, and that "penetration of the truth of the teaching in one's own immediate experience" is needed to finally get to the end of the path.
...having intellectual understanding of the Buddha's Dharma takes one to the place of insight
that is, if one applies that intellectual understanding to practise
these things are inseperable
it is like a map. follow a map to the top of a mountain where one can see the sunrise & beautiful views
right (intellectual) view takes one to the place of insight
there is no other way
to place the mind in a place where insight can occur there must be an act of intention (samma sankappa)
such an act of intention is based in right (intellectual) view, namely, samma ditthi
Liberation to all sentient beings
:om:
"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner?
In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right [insight] knowledge comes into being. In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being.
Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors and the arahant with ten.
Right view certainly can certainly be the forerunner, but I would not call that intellectual understanding. Or at least not all of it. Most people come to Buddhism because they have got a feeling something in their life isn't right, they miss something, or because they know love is a strong emotion and should be cultivated. This is not intellectual knowledge, this is more a feeling.
This feeling -or maybe it is better to call it intuition (or Buddha nature as some like to call it)- is the knowledge of suffering, slowly leading to right view of the 4 truths. Although intellect also may be a helpful tool, I think people without much education or IQ-intelligence can easily have or cultivate right view.
I just wanted to post this not to charge you, but to get this message out to let people know that a scriptural/factual understanding -although sometimes maybe useful- is not the most important. (Maybe it could even be an obstacle at times.)
Intellect can help us uproot other wrong intellectual views. But we can get the cleaning rod stuck in the drain by grasping strongly to our 'better' view. And losing touch with appropriate action, gentle speach, and so forth. Does this sound familiar to anyone?
Right view certainly can certainly be the forerunner, but I would not call that intellectual understanding. Most people come to Buddhism because they have got a feeling something in their life isn't right, they miss something...This feeling -or maybe it is better to call it intuition
I just wanted to post this not to charge you, but to get this message out to let people know that a scriptural/factual understanding -although sometimes maybe useful- is not the most important.
hi Sabre
Your post certainly does not "charge" me or anybody. Your post is not offering an "message" that I can see and, in my eyes, it is simply more confusion.
Right View is simply intellectual understanding. It is not any kind of insight nor does it require any insight. It states "if you want to end suffering then abandon attachment & craving". It is an instruction on how to commence the path.
This thread is about how to gain insight.
It is not about developing the intuition within one's heart they one may have a problem or suffering they need to solve.
I also do not intend to charge you but your post does not display the right intellectual understanding about the Four Noble Truths, about what is written in the scriptures and about how what is written in the scriptures is to be used.
When the Buddha said in the Four Noble Truths: "this craving, with its liking & disliking, lust & delight, is to be abandoned", this is an instruction. It is not intended for university scholars.
Intellect can help us uproot other wrong intellectual views. But we can get the cleaning rod stuck in the drain by grasping strongly to our 'better' view. And losing touch with appropriate action, gentle speach, and so forth. Does this sound familiar to anyone?
The mind is either ready to seek insight or not.
If we have a sense of urgency to be free, we will follow the instruction.
If not, we will just enter into more discursiveness & imaginings about "morality" or more "touchy-feely" posts to excuse ourselves.
For instance, if you were to walk up to a wagon and see that it had three wheels, and a wheel laying next to it, insight would be that the wheel belongs on that other axle.
Insight is not some kind of psychotherapy, where we learn to accept our emotions.
This is more of a loving-kindness & awareness practise rather than "insight".
Insight is to see the Three Characteristics, namely, impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self and to fully realise the Four Noble Truths.
For the mind to have these insights, it must establish itself in a state of pure seeing.
It must abandon all judgements and have no doubts at all. It must be free from emotions or the five hindrances.
Your post is not offering an "message" that I can see and, in my eyes, it is simply more confusion.
I know it does add confusion from your perspective , but as I said, it wasn't directed to you especially.
I might be adding confusion (no problem, in Zen they love confusion ), but I try to decrease doubts. I just wanted to say what I said to give people like zidangus (who just like me don't feel like theory explains everything) the courage to look within and go beyond theory. It would be a shame if they stopped meditating because I can personally say there is a lot to learn from meditation; interesting things can happen. Once somebody thinks he or she is stuck or thinks "well, this must be it.." it usually has a reason and this can be a lack of doubt in the effects of meditation. The Buddha also said, once you think you're done that is the thing that stops you from actually attaining things. We're in this together so we should give each other some faith to keep on going!
To zidangus (and others interested): Maybe meditate a little longer next time. Each session gives you some small insights in how to overcome the hindrances. Keep overcoming them more and more until the mind leaves the breath and the outer world, then the more amazing things (like absorption) can happen and you'll just know there is more to the Buddhas words than meets the eye.
Also we recently had a post by someone experiencing something like this: Post by Talisman
Insight is to see the Three Characteristics, namely, impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self and to fully realise the Four Noble Truths.
For the mind to have these insights, it must establish itself in a state of pure seeing.
It must abandon all judgements and have no doubts at all. It must be free from emotions or the five hindrances.
:om:
Pure seeing is a good term.
Insight is like peeling away the skin of an onion (sorry for the Shrek analogy), you don't hold up the skin and say "wow, what a fantastic strip of skin I have here!". You peel the skin off and throw it away and then look for the next one.
In this analogy:
Meditational Experience is "wow, what a fantastic strip of skin I have here!".
Insight is what is left behind, or rather the result of peeling the skin off. Dzonggsar Khyentse Rinpoche calls it the "result of elimination" (draldrey in Tibetan) in his commentary on the Mahayana Uttaratantra Shastra (Maitreya'a treatise on Buddha Nature). Insight is a changing of who we are, an integration of the Dharma into our being. Each layer that's peeled off is more integration of the Dharma, more peace, more detachment, more joy, less fear.
Insight is not some kind of psychotherapy, where we learn to accept our emotions.
This is more of a loving-kindness & awareness practise rather than "insight".
Psychotherapy would be the process of repairing the wagon. Lovingkindness the motivation to help the wagon.
I do not address those in my post. Simply seeing the essential nature, which as you say are "impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self" as the groundwork only, like the soil from which the experience sprouts. How are those truths expressing themselves in the moment? That is insight, in my opinion. The others are just realizing natural laws.
In the moment, simply noting there is no wagon, no wheel, no observer, noticing the dissatisfaction at the loss of he fixed wagon state is without purpose except in cultivating discipline. They would be essentially "holding the mind open" for insight to be available, which is what happens when a still mind is in observation of a moment's uniqueness.
I did not really ask how insight was gained, I asked if anyone had experienced it, and if there was anyone, if it changed their life in any way. It kind of moved onto a topic of "how to gain insight", which is fine also, as I have learned a lot. Anyway I still have not heard anyone say that they have gained any insight tough, am I to assume that there are a lot of theoreticians on the forum ?
To zidangus (and others interested): Maybe meditate a little longer next time. Each session gives you some small insights in how to overcome the hindrances. Keep overcoming them more and more until the mind leaves the breath and the outer world, then the more amazing things (like absorption) can happen and you'll just know there is more to the Buddhas words than meets the eye.
Also we recently had a post by someone experiencing something like this: Post by Talisman
With metta to all, Sabre
Thanks Sabre, Talisman's experience sounded really deep. I guess this is what I mean when I say I have not experienced anything like this. Thanks for the showing this thread, it's at least an answer to the question I originally asked in this thread.
I did not really ask how insight was gained, I asked if anyone had experienced it, and if there was anyone, if it changed their life in any way. It kind of moved onto a topic of "how to gain insight", which is fine also, as I have learned a lot. Anyway I still have not heard anyone say that they have gained any insight tough, am I to assume that there are a lot of theoreticians on the forum ?
Metta to all sentient beings
Of course there are people who have had insight through practice, that is why it is called practice. But asking whom, when you are are hungry is like asking who has seen a banana. Some have and some haven't but it won't help the hunger That said it does help to know what is possible and I can say with certainty of course you can know the things pointed to in scriptures etc.
And the thread is good in that it is instructive - so long as we rely on others we can never be sure until we know for ourself. This is also the direction that I have seen 'The Tathagatas can only point, it is us who must walk the Path'
Theoretical descriptions of the mind and its workings are accurate, but the Buddha realized that this type of knowledge was relatively useless. We understand something intellectually and then believe it, but it's of no real benefit. It doesn't lead to peace of mind. The knowing of the Buddha leads to letting go. It results in abandoning and renunciation. Because it's precisely this mind that leads us to get involved with both what's right and what's wrong. If we're smart we get involved with those things that are right. If we're stupid we get involved with those things that are wrong. Such a mind is the world, and the Blessed One took the things of this world to examine this very world. Having come to know the world as it actually was, he was then known as the ''One who clearly comprehends the world''.
Concerning this issue of samatha and vipassanā, the important thing is to develop these states in our own hearts. Only when we genuinely cultivate them ourselves will we know what they actually are. We can go and study what all the books say about psychological factors of the mind, but that kind of intellectual understanding is useless for actually cutting off selfish desire, anger, and delusion. We only study the theory about selfish desire, anger, and delusion, merely describing the various characteristics of these mental defilements: ''Selfish desire has this meaning; anger means that; delusion is defined as this.'' Only knowing their theoretical qualities, we can talk about them only on that level. We know and we are intelligent, but when these defilements actually appear in our minds, do they correspond with the theory or not? When, for instance, we experience something undesirable do we react and get into a bad mood? Do we attach? Can we let it go? If aversion comes up and we recognize it, do we still hang on to it? Or once we have seen it, do we let it go? If we find that we see something we don't like and retain that aversion in our hearts, we'd better go back and start studying again. Because it's still not right. The practice is not yet perfect. When it reaches perfection, letting go happens. Look at it in this light.
We truly have to look deeply into our own hearts if we want to experience the fruits of this practice. Attempting to describe the psychology of the mind in terms of the numerous separate moments of consciousness and their different characteristics is, in my opinion, not taking the practice far enough. There's still a lot more to it. If we are going to study these things, then know them absolutely, with clarity and penetrative understanding. Without clarity of insight, how will we ever be finished with them? There's no end to it. We'll never complete our studies.
Practising Dhamma is thus extremely important. When I practised, that's how I studied. I didn't know anything about mind moments or psychological factors. I just observed the quality of knowing.
Thanks Sabre, Talisman's experience sounded really deep. I guess this is what I mean when I say I have not experienced anything like this. Thanks for the showing this thread, it's at least an answer to the question I originally asked in this thread.
Metta to all sentient beings
:thumbsup: You're welcome.
To give you another motivation boost if this helps you: These kind of experiences are not rare and I can confirm Talisman's experience is possible. Also deep insights and concentration up to the level of absorptions do actually exist. (although the use of the latter is discussed)
I hope you find some motivation in this to practice, experiences like described by Talisman are not a monk-only domain or not made up just to fool us and keep us busy.
Floating_abu, that is a nice quote by Ajahn Chah and I would agree. I never read many suttas and don't know a word of Pali or Sanskrit, but had some wonderful times meditating (also of course some horrible times, hehehe), and so I prefer to meditate instead of reading too much.
I think they inform each other; but of course we all have to try for ourself. As to profound experiences or deep ah hahs they are not what we after after all, at least in Buddhism - is my understanding.
Some wise words, The Third Patriarch of Zen Verses on the Faith Mind Hsin Hsin Ming by Seng-T'san
The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent everything becomes clear and undisguised. Make the smallest distinction, however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinions for or against anything. To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind. When the deep meaning of things is not understood, the mind’s essential peace is disturbed to no avail.
The Way is perfect like vast space where nothing is lacking and nothing in excess. Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject that we do not see the true nature of things.
Live neither in the entanglements of outer things, nor in inner feelings of emptiness. Be serene in the oneness of things and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves.
When you try to stop activity by passivity your very effort fills you with activity. As long as you remain in one extreme or the other you will never know Oneness.
Those who do not live in the single Way fail in both activity and passivity, assertion and denial. To deny the reality of things is to miss their reality; To assert the emptiness of things is to miss their reality.
The more you talk and think about it, the further astray you wander from the truth. Stop talking and thinking, and there is nothing you will not be able to know.
To return to the root is to find meaning, but to pursue appearances is to miss the source. At the moment of inner enlightenment there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness. The changes that appear to occur in the empty world we call real only because of our ignorance.
Do not search for the truth; only cease to cherish opinions. do not remain in the dualistic state. Avoid such pursuits carefully.
If there is even a trace of this and that, of right and wrong, the mind-essence will be lost in confusion.
Although all dualities come from the One, do not be attached even to this One. When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way, nothing in the world can offend.
And when a thing can no longer offend, it ceases to exist in the old way. When no discriminating thoughts arise, the old mind ceases to exist. When thought objects vanish, the thinking-subject vanishes: As when the mind vanishes, objects vanish.
Things are objects because of the subject (mind): the mind (subject) is such because of things (object). Understand the relativity of these two and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness. In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable and each contains in itself the whole world. If you do not discriminate between coarse and fine you will not be tempted to prejudice and opinion.
To live in the Great Way is neither easy nor difficult. But those with limited views are fearful and irresolute: the faster they hurry, the slower they go. And clinging (attachment) cannot be limited: Even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment is to go astray. Just let things be in their own way and there will be neither coming not going. Obey the nature of things (your own nature) and you will walk freely and undisturbed.
When the thought is in bondage the truth is hidden for everything is murky and unclear. And the burdensome practice of judging brings annoyance and weariness. What benefit can be derived from distinctions and separations?
If you wish to move in the One Way do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas. Indeed, to accept them fully is identical with enlightenment.
The wise man strives to no goals but the foolish man fetters himself. There is one Dharma, not many. Distinctions arise from the clinging needs of the ignorant. To seek Mind with the (discriminating) mind is the greatest of all mistakes.
Rest and unrest derive from illusion; with enlightenment there is no liking and disliking. All dualities come from ignorant inference. They are like dreams or flowers in air - foolish to try to grasp them. Gain and loss, right and wrong, such thoughts must finally be abolished at once.
If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease. If the mind makes no discriminations, the ten thousand things are as they are, of single essence. To understand the mystery of this One-essence is to be released from all entanglements. When all things are seen equally the timeless Self-essence is reached, No comparisons or analogies are possible in this causeless, relationless state.
Consider movement stationary and the stationary in motion, both movement and rest disappear. When such dualities cease to exist Oneness itself cannot exist. To this ultimate finality no law or description applies.
For the unified mind in accord with the way all self-centered striving ceases. Doubts and irresolutions vanish and life in true faith is possible. With a single stroke we are freed from bondage: Nothing clings to us and we hold to nothing.
All is empty, clear, self-illuminating, with no exertion of the mind’s power. Here thought, feeling, knowledge and imagination are of no value.
In this world of suchness there is neither self nor other-than-self. To come directly into harmony with this reality just say when doubt rises "not two". In this "not two" nothing is separate, nothing is excluded.
No matter when or where, enlightenment means entering this truth. And this truth is beyond extension or diminution in time and space: In it a single thought is ten thousand years.
Emptiness here, emptiness there, but the infinite universe stands always before your eyes. Infinitely large and infinitely small; no difference, for definitions have vanished and no boundaries are seen.
So too with Being and non-Being. Don’t waste time in doubts and arguments That have nothing to do with this.
One thing, all things, move among and intermingle without distinction. To live in this realization is to be without anxiety about non-perfection. To live in this faith is the road to non-duality, because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind.
Words! The Way is beyond language, for in it there is no yesterday no tomorrow no today.
...having intellectual understanding of the Buddha's Dharma takes one to the place of insight
that is, if one applies that intellectual understanding to practise
these things are inseperable
This may be the case for a lot of people, but one must be weary of becoming too attached to the intellectual understanding of the Dharma as this can be counter productive and inhibit a persons progress (IMO).
but one must be weary of becoming too attached to the intellectual understanding of the Dharma as this can be counter productive and inhibit a persons progress (IMO).
Of course I disagree because what you posted is illogical in at least three ways:
(1) What you are called "understanding" is not actual understanding. Samma ditthi, the first path factor, is right understanding. If one has right understanding then one can practise. Obviously, what you have called "intellectual understanding" is not really any kind of genuine understanding.
(2) Right understanding leads to non-attachment. One cannot be attached to right understanding.
(3) You said in your first post you have made no progress so what would you personally understand about what is counter productive and inhibit a persons progress?
To end, the "weariness" you speak of is just reading books without understanding.
>> ...having intellectual understanding of the Buddha's Dharma takes one to the place of insight
One tends to translate intellection understanding into judgments, such as "grasping is wrong", and this makes it difficult to let go of judgments when meditating. I'm not saying it will necessarily happen, but I consider this to be a pifall.
For example, if you had genuine intellectual understanding of the Dharma, you could explain to someone how to attain the first jhana, even though your mind has not attained the first jhana.
This is similar to a travel agent, that may have never travelled to Rome, but can organise for their client to travel to Rome.
So are you able to explain to me how to attain the first jhana or Nibbana using the Noble Eightfold Path?
The Buddha also said, once you think you're done that is the thing that stops you from actually attaining things.
I have no recollection or knowledge of the Buddha ever saying this.
Please provide a reference.
Thank you
Hi DD and other readers,
I was told by a monk who studied the suttas for years, so it's probably in there somewhere. Maybe I'll look it up someday. For now this will have to do:
Dhammapada 63: A fool with a sense of his foolishness is — at least to that extent — wise. But a fool who thinks himself wise really deserves to be called a fool.
But in context of this discussion it doesn't matter what the suttas say exactly because if you read my post, you know I think it is not actual words that are important, but personal experience is what counts. This discussion is in the meditation forum and not a sutta discussion so it is not my intention to quote actual words of the Buddha to make my point. That would be the opposite of the question asked and doesn't help anyone in his/her meditation practice.
It's totally fine with me if you want to interpret Buddhism in a way of intellectual reasoning, but I want to support those who feel like actual (life-changing) insights are possible. Those experiences aren't told a lot about by those who experienced them because they focus on a goal rather than on a means, so sometimes we forget those experiences is actually what Buddhism is all about. At those times we think we're done or we lose faith and that would be a shame. But sometimes teachers talk about it anyway and here is another motivating video I found:
Just for clarity: This monk is talking about Ajahn Chahs experience, not his own
Now a question might arise, if one does not get this realization from mere intellectual understanding then how did some persons instantaneously get the vision of Dhamma as related in the Buddhist scriptures? A good example is Ven. Sariputta. Before he was even ordained as a disciple of the Buddha he became a stream winner (sotapanna) by merely listening to a short stanza from Elder Assaji. Later, he became an arahant – fully accomplished one- while listening to a Dhamma discourse given by the Buddha to Ven. Sariputta’s nephew, Dhiganaka.
It is possible in the case of those who already have a deep understanding of Dhamma through bhavanamaya nana which they have acquired in their previous lives. Ven. Sariputta was one such fortunate person. If not, he wouldn’t be disenchanted with the lay life so as to seek liberation in his prime youth. In our case, we are less fortunate than Ven. Sariputta. That is why we are born at a time when we have to struggle to live in accordance with the Noble Teachings of the Buddha. Yet, we are fortunate to have been born in Sri Lanka – the dhamma dipa – which still provides the best environment conducive to practicing the Dhamma.
The purpose of this short article is to inspire the reader to strive to gain direct knowledge of the Dhamma in this very life, here and now. Dhamma is to be ‘seen’ well (sandhittika).
For example, if you had genuine intellectual understanding of the Dharma, you could explain to someone how to attain the first jhana, even though your mind has not attained the first jhana.
This is similar to a travel agent, that may have never travelled to Rome, but can organise for their client to travel to Rome.
So are you able to explain to me how to attain the first jhana or Nibbana using the Noble Eightfold Path?
I could explain to you of course, but I doubt as good as you could to me, because from what I have read in your posts you are an extremely good travel agent, a lot better than I am anyway. However, at the end of the day your explaining other peoples experiences not your own, if your happy with this then good luck to you. But I would like to have my own experiences, and I don't think I need to have the knowledge of a Buddhist scholar to achieve this, you obviously think otherwise, which is fair enough, its your opinion and I respect it. I hope your scholarly knowledge can lead you to insight as you suggest.
Some wise words, The Third Patriarch of Zen Verses on the Faith Mind Hsin Hsin Ming by Seng-T'san
I already posted this. Why is it being posted again?
It is best stop posting such useless words. Instead, practise them!
When such words are posted, they are useless. When practised, they are useful.
Best to stop sinking into intellectual worship of texts.
The mind can intellectual worship to the most escoteric texts, to the point where the mind intellectually worships doctrines about non-worship.
This "intellectual worship" is not the same as "intellectual understanding".
"Understanding" means one understands.
I posted it because I want to, the same reason you post sutra after sutra in your posts, because you want to. Accept it and respect it, as I respect your posts.
but one must be weary of becoming too attached to the intellectual understanding of the Dharma as this can be counter productive and inhibit a persons progress (IMO).
Of course I disagree because what you posted is illogical in at least three ways:
(1) What you are called "understanding" is not actual understanding. Samma ditthi, the first path factor, is right understanding. If one has right understanding then one can practise. Obviously, what you have called "intellectual understanding" is not really any kind of genuine understanding.
(2) Right understanding leads to non-attachment. One cannot be attached to right understanding.
(3) You said in your first post you have made no progress so what would you personally understand about what is counter productive and inhibit a persons progress?
To end, the "weariness" you speak of is just reading books without understanding.
"what you have called "intellectual understanding" is not really any kind of genuine understanding" EXACTLY MY POINT
"To end, the "weariness" you speak of is just reading books without understanding."
Well I would change this to "To end, the "weariness" you speak of is just reading books without experiencing their meaning first hand."
"what would you personally understand about what is counterproductive and inhibit a persons progress?" I understand that reading book after book can bog a person down in theory, and can also stroke a persons ego, with beliefs such as "I understand the Dharma better than you do" and so on. This is something I think is counterproductive and misses the real point of Dharma, which is to practice with acts of compassion, kindness and love for all sentient beings and to develop understanding through meditation.
Actually, he said the exact opposite. "This holy life is complete. There is nothing left to do."
I think Sabre just means that arrogance doesn't win and moreso it is not really the teaching.
As to Lord Buddha I think he went on to teach many generations and establish Buddhism in good order.
Hi floating_abu (and other readers),
Arrogance can be a block in the practice for sure, but I didn't mean arrogance in this case. Ignorance is perhaps a better word for what I try to describe. Let me try to explain my view a little bit better:
I think ignorance of the Buddhas teachings and no belief in the capacity of deeper insights might actually stop those insights from happening. This can have several reasons and I think one of those -which suits this thread- can be ones attachment to intellect, because to admit one may be wrong about things is actually challenging the sense of self. But intellect, memories, knowledge is all not yourself, this has to be understood through some kind of insight, but here is some of my limited scriptural knowledge to support it
Most of us know the five aggregates and that they are no-self. Intellect is within these aggregates, it's important to know this.
§ 14. [Visākha:] "And what, lady, are bodily fabrications, what are verbal fabrications, what are mental fabrications?"
[Sister Dhammadinnā:] "In-&-out breathing is bodily, bound up with the body, therefore is it called a bodily fabrication. Having directed one's thought and evaluated (the matter), one breaks into speech. Therefore directed thought & evaluation are called verbal fabrications. Perception & feeling are mental, bound up with the mind. Therefore perception & feeling are called mental fabrications." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html
If intellect is just part of the aggregates, how can it see it's own non-self nature through thinking, understanding, mere reasoning, or even just acceptance of the Buddhas words? That is just impossible because it is all an action of the intellect, all a fabrication. (I concluded from a book by Alan Watts some gain enlightenment or at least insight at the moment they fully realize this. Maybe someone will when reading this, hahaha )
But to enlighten somebody is not my goal here With this post I just wanted to support people who also have the idea Buddhism is not about knowing your texts or about having a high intelligence. Of course both of these can be beneficial in the practice, but in no way are they the goal. Free from dukkha is the goal. And intelligence, be glad if you've got it, but to put it quite frankly, it is still dukkha.
And maybe this post also challenges some who think intellect is insight, but once again for clarity: I don't call anyone arrogant.
If intellect is just part of the aggregates, how can it see it's own non-self nature through thinking, understanding, mere reasoning, or even just acceptance of the Buddhas words? That is just impossible because it is all an action of the intellect, all a fabrication. (I concluded from a book by Alan Watts some gain enlightenment or at least insight at the moment they fully realize this. Maybe someone will when reading this, hahaha )
But to enlighten somebody is not my goal here With this post I just wanted to support people who also have the idea Buddhism is not about knowing your texts or about having a high intelligence. Of course both of these can be beneficial in the practice, but in no way are they the goal. Free from dukkha is the goal. And intelligence, be glad if you've got it, but to put it quite frankly, it is still dukkha.
And maybe this post also challenges some who think intellect is insight, but once again for clarity: I don't call anyone arrogant.
If intellect is just part of the aggregates, how can it see it's own non-self nature through thinking, understanding, mere reasoning, or even just acceptance of the Buddhas words? That is just impossible because it is all an action of the intellect, all a fabrication. (I concluded from a book by Alan Watts some gain enlightenment or at least insight at the moment they fully realize this. Maybe someone will when reading this, hahaha )
But to enlighten somebody is not my goal here With this post I just wanted to support people who also have the idea Buddhism is not about knowing your texts or about having a high intelligence. Of course both of these can be beneficial in the practice, but in no way are they the goal. Free from dukkha is the goal. And intelligence, be glad if you've got it, but to put it quite frankly, it is still dukkha.
And maybe this post also challenges some who think intellect is insight, but once again for clarity: I don't call anyone arrogant.
Consciousness is also part of the aggregates, so, following your reasoning, consciousness or pure seeing cannot see its own nature. Is that so?
Funny how you must fall back on an unenlightened drug taking womanising intellectual such as Alan Watts.
Anyway, your post is a contradiction.
To believe "the intellect cannot gain enlightenment" is also the functioning of the intellect.
When the intellect believes "the intellect cannot gain enlightenment" and then renounces itself, this is still the functioning of the intellect.
Can't you see! :buck:
It is the same as an enterpreneur or manager, who wisely delegates a duty. The shrewd enterpreneur understands: "I cannot do this task myself; I need to employ someone more skilled than me to perform it".
But the shrewd enterpreneur or manager keeps supervising his employee, just as the intellect keeps supervising the meditation process in the background.
Buddhism is certainly about knowing texts or about having a high intelligence. Buddhism expresses the path in many ways and one way is "study, practise, realisation".
Intelligence understands what it studies and then remembers (sati) what is studied and applies it to practise.
When the Buddha taught in the Noble Truths: "craving & attachment are to be abandoned", this is exactly the same as what Alan Watts is trying to explain.
But the problem with Alan Watts is he cannot see that his ideas about the "non-intellect" are also "ideas" or "intellect".
Meditation requires our mind to have a body of intellectual knowledge stored within it. The mindfulness engages that knowledge when required to facilitate the task of seeing or insight.
This body of intellectual knowledge includes the knowledge of abandoning the "intellect".
When the mind abandons the intellect, this action or order comes from the intellect.
And maybe this post also challenges some who think intellect is insight, but once again for clarity:
As I previously said, the mind ready to develop concentration & insight must be readily equiped with intellectual understanding. This intellectual understanding or wisdom is required to cut through any obstacles to samadhi and then maintain the mind in a state of pure seeing or observation.
We can read the Buddha's experience, here, of using the intellect to develop samadhi:
When insight occurs, what is enlightened is the intellect (or sankhara aggregate)
The intellect naturally is not that which does the main work of insight. It is consciousness. But the intellect must supervise consciousness, like a manager supervises an employee
Intellect is within these aggregates, it's important to know this.
§ 14. [Visākha:] "And what, lady, are bodily fabrications, what are verbal fabrications, what are mental fabrications?"
[Sister Dhammadinnā:] "In-&-out breathing is bodily, bound up with the body, therefore is it called a bodily fabrication. Having directed one's thought and evaluated (the matter), one breaks into speech. Therefore directed thought & evaluation are called verbal fabrications. Perception & feeling are mental, bound up with the mind. Therefore perception & feeling are called mental fabrications."
Comments
For me, the examples above are not applicable. When the mind abandons all judgments, with complete confidence this is the path to insight, without any doubts whatsover, it is not possible for that mind to be bigoted or to bomb.
To be bigoted & to bomb, there must first be the mind of judgment. In the abandoning of all judgements, to be bigoted & to bomb is not possible.
Now, I must reiterate, for the sake of certainty, for the sake of end all doubts in the path, the abandoning all judgements is the geniune path.
Please have confidence in this. As the 3rd Zen Patriarch said, about having complete doubtless faith in mind: "The way is like vast space".
As Jesus said: "Believe! Why do you doubt?"
Warm regards
DD
I agree completely, in that having an intellectual understanding of the Buddha's Dharma can only take you so far on the Buddhist path, and that "penetration of the truth of the teaching in one's own immediate experience" is needed to finally get to the end of the path.
Metta to all sentient beings
that is, if one applies that intellectual understanding to practise
these things are inseperable
it is like a map. follow a map to the top of a mountain where one can see the sunrise & beautiful views
right (intellectual) view takes one to the place of insight
there is no other way
to place the mind in a place where insight can occur there must be an act of intention (samma sankappa)
such an act of intention is based in right (intellectual) view, namely, samma ditthi
Liberation to all sentient beings
:om:
Right view certainly can certainly be the forerunner, but I would not call that intellectual understanding. Or at least not all of it. Most people come to Buddhism because they have got a feeling something in their life isn't right, they miss something, or because they know love is a strong emotion and should be cultivated. This is not intellectual knowledge, this is more a feeling.
This feeling -or maybe it is better to call it intuition (or Buddha nature as some like to call it)- is the knowledge of suffering, slowly leading to right view of the 4 truths. Although intellect also may be a helpful tool, I think people without much education or IQ-intelligence can easily have or cultivate right view.
I just wanted to post this not to charge you, but to get this message out to let people know that a scriptural/factual understanding -although sometimes maybe useful- is not the most important. (Maybe it could even be an obstacle at times.)
With metta,
Sabre
Your post certainly does not "charge" me or anybody. Your post is not offering an "message" that I can see and, in my eyes, it is simply more confusion.
Right View is simply intellectual understanding. It is not any kind of insight nor does it require any insight. It states "if you want to end suffering then abandon attachment & craving". It is an instruction on how to commence the path.
This thread is about how to gain insight.
It is not about developing the intuition within one's heart they one may have a problem or suffering they need to solve.
I also do not intend to charge you but your post does not display the right intellectual understanding about the Four Noble Truths, about what is written in the scriptures and about how what is written in the scriptures is to be used.
When the Buddha said in the Four Noble Truths: "this craving, with its liking & disliking, lust & delight, is to be abandoned", this is an instruction. It is not intended for university scholars.
Kind regards
If we have a sense of urgency to be free, we will follow the instruction.
If not, we will just enter into more discursiveness & imaginings about "morality" or more "touchy-feely" posts to excuse ourselves.
:-/
Immoral behaviour is evidence of an unsound understanding of the dharma.
To murder people, there must be grasping to "I", "me" or "mine".
Now, do you have anything to offer about "insight" or "vipassana"?
Or you going to keep making allegations against some because their posts disagree with others?
:-/
This is more of a loving-kindness & awareness practise rather than "insight".
Insight is to see the Three Characteristics, namely, impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self and to fully realise the Four Noble Truths.
For the mind to have these insights, it must establish itself in a state of pure seeing.
It must abandon all judgements and have no doubts at all. It must be free from emotions or the five hindrances.
:om:
I might be adding confusion (no problem, in Zen they love confusion
To zidangus (and others interested): Maybe meditate a little longer next time. Each session gives you some small insights in how to overcome the hindrances. Keep overcoming them more and more until the mind leaves the breath and the outer world, then the more amazing things (like absorption) can happen and you'll just know there is more to the Buddhas words than meets the eye.
Also we recently had a post by someone experiencing something like this: Post by Talisman
With metta to all,
Sabre
Insight is like peeling away the skin of an onion (sorry for the Shrek analogy), you don't hold up the skin and say "wow, what a fantastic strip of skin I have here!". You peel the skin off and throw it away and then look for the next one.
In this analogy:
Meditational Experience is "wow, what a fantastic strip of skin I have here!".
Insight is what is left behind, or rather the result of peeling the skin off. Dzonggsar Khyentse Rinpoche calls it the "result of elimination" (draldrey in Tibetan) in his commentary on the Mahayana Uttaratantra Shastra (Maitreya'a treatise on Buddha Nature). Insight is a changing of who we are, an integration of the Dharma into our being. Each layer that's peeled off is more integration of the Dharma, more peace, more detachment, more joy, less fear.
You don't understand buddhism. You can murder someone without an I just like you can urinate without an I.
You totally have an untenable view of anatta. Your view of anatta a realized being would die from lack of urination.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_45.html
Metta to all sentient beings
I do not address those in my post. Simply seeing the essential nature, which as you say are "impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self" as the groundwork only, like the soil from which the experience sprouts. How are those truths expressing themselves in the moment? That is insight, in my opinion. The others are just realizing natural laws.
In the moment, simply noting there is no wagon, no wheel, no observer, noticing the dissatisfaction at the loss of he fixed wagon state is without purpose except in cultivating discipline. They would be essentially "holding the mind open" for insight to be available, which is what happens when a still mind is in observation of a moment's uniqueness.
Anyway I still have not heard anyone say that they have gained any insight tough, am I to assume that there are a lot of theoreticians on the forum ?
Metta to all sentient beings
Talisman's experience sounded really deep. I guess this is what I mean when I say I have not experienced anything like this. Thanks for the showing this thread, it's at least an answer to the question I originally asked in this thread.
Metta to all sentient beings
And the thread is good in that it is instructive - so long as we rely on others we can never be sure until we know for ourself. This is also the direction that I have seen 'The Tathagatas can only point, it is us who must walk the Path'
Or something like that
Well wishes
Concerning this issue of samatha and vipassanā, the important thing is to develop these states in our own hearts. Only when we genuinely cultivate them ourselves will we know what they actually are. We can go and study what all the books say about psychological factors of the mind, but that kind of intellectual understanding is useless for actually cutting off selfish desire, anger, and delusion. We only study the theory about selfish desire, anger, and delusion, merely describing the various characteristics of these mental defilements: ''Selfish desire has this meaning; anger means that; delusion is defined as this.'' Only knowing their theoretical qualities, we can talk about them only on that level. We know and we are intelligent, but when these defilements actually appear in our minds, do they correspond with the theory or not? When, for instance, we experience something undesirable do we react and get into a bad mood? Do we attach? Can we let it go? If aversion comes up and we recognize it, do we still hang on to it? Or once we have seen it, do we let it go? If we find that we see something we don't like and retain that aversion in our hearts, we'd better go back and start studying again. Because it's still not right. The practice is not yet perfect. When it reaches perfection, letting go happens. Look at it in this light.
We truly have to look deeply into our own hearts if we want to experience the fruits of this practice. Attempting to describe the psychology of the mind in terms of the numerous separate moments of consciousness and their different characteristics is, in my opinion, not taking the practice far enough. There's still a lot more to it. If we are going to study these things, then know them absolutely, with clarity and penetrative understanding. Without clarity of insight, how will we ever be finished with them? There's no end to it. We'll never complete our studies.
Practising Dhamma is thus extremely important. When I practised, that's how I studied. I didn't know anything about mind moments or psychological factors. I just observed the quality of knowing.
- Venerable Luang Por Chah
To give you another motivation boost if this helps you: These kind of experiences are not rare and I can confirm Talisman's experience is possible. Also deep insights and concentration up to the level of absorptions do actually exist. (although the use of the latter is discussed)
I hope you find some motivation in this to practice, experiences like described by Talisman are not a monk-only domain or not made up just to fool us and keep us busy.
Floating_abu, that is a nice quote by Ajahn Chah and I would agree. I never read many suttas and don't know a word of Pali or Sanskrit, but had some wonderful times meditating (also of course some horrible times, hehehe), and so I prefer to meditate instead of reading too much.
With metta,
Sabre
Best wishes
Abu
The Third Patriarch of Zen Verses on the Faith Mind
Hsin Hsin Ming by Seng-T'san
The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.
When the deep meaning of things is not understood,
the mind’s essential peace is disturbed to no avail.
The Way is perfect like vast space
where nothing is lacking and nothing in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject
that we do not see the true nature of things.
Live neither in the entanglements of outer things,
nor in inner feelings of emptiness.
Be serene in the oneness of things and such
erroneous views will disappear by themselves.
When you try to stop activity by passivity
your very effort fills you with activity.
As long as you remain in one extreme or the other
you will never know Oneness.
Those who do not live in the single Way
fail in both activity and passivity,
assertion and denial.
To deny the reality of things
is to miss their reality;
To assert the emptiness of things
is to miss their reality.
The more you talk and think about it,
the further astray you wander from the truth.
Stop talking and thinking,
and there is nothing you will not be able to know.
To return to the root is to find meaning,
but to pursue appearances is to miss the source.
At the moment of inner enlightenment
there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness.
The changes that appear to occur in the empty world
we call real only because of our ignorance.
Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.
do not remain in the dualistic state.
Avoid such pursuits carefully.
If there is even a trace of this and that,
of right and wrong,
the mind-essence will be lost in confusion.
Although all dualities come from the One,
do not be attached even to this One.
When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,
nothing in the world can offend.
And when a thing can no longer offend,
it ceases to exist in the old way.
When no discriminating thoughts arise,
the old mind ceases to exist.
When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes:
As when the mind vanishes, objects vanish.
Things are objects because of the subject (mind):
the mind (subject) is such because of things (object).
Understand the relativity of these two
and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness.
In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable
and each contains in itself the whole world.
If you do not discriminate between coarse and fine
you will not be tempted to prejudice and opinion.
To live in the Great Way is neither easy nor difficult.
But those with limited views are fearful and irresolute:
the faster they hurry, the slower they go.
And clinging (attachment) cannot be limited:
Even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment
is to go astray.
Just let things be in their own way
and there will be neither coming not going.
Obey the nature of things (your own nature)
and you will walk freely and undisturbed.
When the thought is in bondage the truth is hidden
for everything is murky and unclear.
And the burdensome practice of judging
brings annoyance and weariness.
What benefit can be derived
from distinctions and separations?
If you wish to move in the One Way
do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas.
Indeed, to accept them fully
is identical with enlightenment.
The wise man strives to no goals
but the foolish man fetters himself.
There is one Dharma, not many.
Distinctions arise
from the clinging needs of the ignorant.
To seek Mind with the (discriminating) mind
is the greatest of all mistakes.
Rest and unrest derive from illusion;
with enlightenment
there is no liking and disliking.
All dualities come from ignorant inference.
They are like dreams or flowers in air -
foolish to try to grasp them.
Gain and loss, right and wrong,
such thoughts must
finally be abolished at once.
If the eye never sleeps,
all dreams will naturally cease.
If the mind makes no discriminations,
the ten thousand things are as they are,
of single essence.
To understand the mystery of this One-essence
is to be released from all entanglements.
When all things are seen equally
the timeless Self-essence is reached,
No comparisons or analogies are possible
in this causeless, relationless state.
Consider movement stationary
and the stationary in motion,
both movement and rest disappear.
When such dualities cease to exist
Oneness itself cannot exist.
To this ultimate finality
no law or description applies.
For the unified mind in accord with the way
all self-centered striving ceases.
Doubts and irresolutions vanish
and life in true faith is possible.
With a single stroke we are freed from bondage:
Nothing clings to us and we hold to nothing.
All is empty, clear, self-illuminating,
with no exertion of the mind’s power.
Here thought, feeling,
knowledge and imagination are of no value.
In this world of suchness
there is neither self nor other-than-self.
To come directly into harmony with this reality
just say when doubt rises "not two".
In this "not two" nothing is separate,
nothing is excluded.
No matter when or where,
enlightenment means entering this truth.
And this truth is beyond extension
or diminution in time and space:
In it a single thought is ten thousand years.
Emptiness here, emptiness there,
but the infinite universe
stands always before your eyes.
Infinitely large and infinitely small;
no difference, for definitions have vanished
and no boundaries are seen.
So too with Being and non-Being.
Don’t waste time in doubts and arguments
That have nothing to do with this.
One thing, all things,
move among and intermingle without distinction.
To live in this realization
is to be without anxiety about non-perfection.
To live in this faith is the road to non-duality,
because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind.
Words!
The Way is beyond language,
for in it there is
no yesterday
no tomorrow
no today.
Metta to all sentient beings
Metta to all sentient beings
Please provide a reference.
Thank you
(1) What you are called "understanding" is not actual understanding. Samma ditthi, the first path factor, is right understanding. If one has right understanding then one can practise. Obviously, what you have called "intellectual understanding" is not really any kind of genuine understanding.
(2) Right understanding leads to non-attachment. One cannot be attached to right understanding.
(3) You said in your first post you have made no progress so what would you personally understand about what is counter productive and inhibit a persons progress?
To end, the "weariness" you speak of is just reading books without understanding.
One tends to translate intellection understanding into judgments, such as "grasping is wrong", and this makes it difficult to let go of judgments when meditating. I'm not saying it will necessarily happen, but I consider this to be a pifall.
It is best stop posting such useless words. Instead, practise them!
When such words are posted, they are useless. When practised, they are useful.
Best to stop sinking into intellectual worship of texts.
The mind can intellectual worship to the most escoteric texts, to the point where the mind intellectually worships doctrines about non-worship.
This "intellectual worship" is not the same as "intellectual understanding".
"Understanding" means one understands.
For example, if you had genuine intellectual understanding of the Dharma, you could explain to someone how to attain the first jhana, even though your mind has not attained the first jhana.
This is similar to a travel agent, that may have never travelled to Rome, but can organise for their client to travel to Rome.
So are you able to explain to me how to attain the first jhana or Nibbana using the Noble Eightfold Path?
To reply, I can ony say it is you that does not understand Buddhism. The selfless mind cannot have a motivation to murder.
Urinating is a bodily necessity. The body must urinate just like a female body menstruates. It is not an act of volition or choice.
But murder requires an act of volition.
The Buddha did not include urinating, defecating, menstruating, etc, in the five precents.
All the best
I was told by a monk who studied the suttas for years, so it's probably in there somewhere. Maybe I'll look it up someday. For now this will have to do:
Dhammapada 63:
A fool with a sense of his foolishness is — at least to that extent — wise. But a fool who thinks himself wise really deserves to be called a fool.
But in context of this discussion it doesn't matter what the suttas say exactly because if you read my post, you know I think it is not actual words that are important, but personal experience is what counts. This discussion is in the meditation forum and not a sutta discussion so it is not my intention to quote actual words of the Buddha to make my point. That would be the opposite of the question asked and doesn't help anyone in his/her meditation practice.
It's totally fine with me if you want to interpret Buddhism in a way of intellectual reasoning, but I want to support those who feel like actual (life-changing) insights are possible. Those experiences aren't told a lot about by those who experienced them because they focus on a goal rather than on a means, so sometimes we forget those experiences is actually what Buddhism is all about. At those times we think we're done or we lose faith and that would be a shame. But sometimes teachers talk about it anyway and here is another motivating video I found:
Just for clarity: This monk is talking about Ajahn Chahs experience, not his own
With metta,
Sabre
http://bhikkhu.wordpress.com/category/meditation/
Now a question might arise, if one does not get this realization from mere intellectual understanding then how did some persons instantaneously get the vision of Dhamma as related in the Buddhist scriptures? A good example is Ven. Sariputta. Before he was even ordained as a disciple of the Buddha he became a stream winner (sotapanna) by merely listening to a short stanza from Elder Assaji. Later, he became an arahant – fully accomplished one- while listening to a Dhamma discourse given by the Buddha to Ven. Sariputta’s nephew, Dhiganaka.
It is possible in the case of those who already have a deep understanding of Dhamma through bhavanamaya nana which they have acquired in their previous lives. Ven. Sariputta was one such fortunate person. If not, he wouldn’t be disenchanted with the lay life so as to seek liberation in his prime youth. In our case, we are less fortunate than Ven. Sariputta. That is why we are born at a time when we have to struggle to live in accordance with the Noble Teachings of the Buddha. Yet, we are fortunate to have been born in Sri Lanka – the dhamma dipa – which still provides the best environment conducive to practicing the Dhamma.
The purpose of this short article is to inspire the reader to strive to gain direct knowledge of the Dhamma in this very life, here and now. Dhamma is to be ‘seen’ well (sandhittika).
Metta to all sentient beings
However, at the end of the day your explaining other peoples experiences not your own, if your happy with this then good luck to you. But I would like to have my own experiences, and I don't think I need to have the knowledge of a Buddhist scholar to achieve this, you obviously think otherwise, which is fair enough, its your opinion and I respect it. I hope your scholarly knowledge can lead you to insight as you suggest.
With Metta
Metta to all sentient beings
Metta to all sentient beings
EXACTLY MY POINT
"To end, the "weariness" you speak of is just reading books without understanding."
Well I would change this to
"To end, the "weariness" you speak of is just reading books without experiencing their meaning first hand."
"what would you personally understand about what is counterproductive and inhibit a persons progress?"
I understand that reading book after book can bog a person down in theory, and can also stroke a persons ego, with beliefs such as "I understand the Dharma better than you do" and so on. This is something I think is counterproductive and misses the real point of Dharma, which is to practice with acts of compassion, kindness and love for all sentient beings and to develop understanding through meditation.
Metta to all sentient beings
As to Lord Buddha I think he went on to teach many generations and establish Buddhism in good order.
~ The Doyen, Bodhimind
Arrogance can be a block in the practice for sure, but I didn't mean arrogance in this case. Ignorance is perhaps a better word for what I try to describe. Let me try to explain my view a little bit better:
I think ignorance of the Buddhas teachings and no belief in the capacity of deeper insights might actually stop those insights from happening. This can have several reasons and I think one of those -which suits this thread- can be ones attachment to intellect, because to admit one may be wrong about things is actually challenging the sense of self. But intellect, memories, knowledge is all not yourself, this has to be understood through some kind of insight, but here is some of my limited scriptural knowledge
Most of us know the five aggregates and that they are no-self. Intellect is within these aggregates, it's important to know this. If intellect is just part of the aggregates, how can it see it's own non-self nature through thinking, understanding, mere reasoning, or even just acceptance of the Buddhas words? That is just impossible because it is all an action of the intellect, all a fabrication. (I concluded from a book by Alan Watts some gain enlightenment or at least insight at the moment they fully realize this. Maybe someone will when reading this, hahaha
But to enlighten somebody is not my goal here
And maybe this post also challenges some who think intellect is insight, but once again for clarity: I don't call anyone arrogant.
With metta,
Sabre
Thanks,
Abu
:-/
Doubt conquered results in samadhi and samadhi results in insight which ends ignorance.
This is the simple dhamma the Buddha taught rather than the confusion of "The Doyen"
Is your post a declaration of enlightenment?
:bowdown:
Funny how you must fall back on an unenlightened drug taking womanising intellectual such as Alan Watts.
Anyway, your post is a contradiction.
To believe "the intellect cannot gain enlightenment" is also the functioning of the intellect.
When the intellect believes "the intellect cannot gain enlightenment" and then renounces itself, this is still the functioning of the intellect.
Can't you see! :buck:
It is the same as an enterpreneur or manager, who wisely delegates a duty. The shrewd enterpreneur understands: "I cannot do this task myself; I need to employ someone more skilled than me to perform it".
But the shrewd enterpreneur or manager keeps supervising his employee, just as the intellect keeps supervising the meditation process in the background.
Buddhism is certainly about knowing texts or about having a high intelligence. Buddhism expresses the path in many ways and one way is "study, practise, realisation".
Intelligence understands what it studies and then remembers (sati) what is studied and applies it to practise.
When the Buddha taught in the Noble Truths: "craving & attachment are to be abandoned", this is exactly the same as what Alan Watts is trying to explain.
But the problem with Alan Watts is he cannot see that his ideas about the "non-intellect" are also "ideas" or "intellect".
Meditation requires our mind to have a body of intellectual knowledge stored within it. The mindfulness engages that knowledge when required to facilitate the task of seeing or insight.
This body of intellectual knowledge includes the knowledge of abandoning the "intellect".
When the mind abandons the intellect, this action or order comes from the intellect.
:mullet:
We can read the Buddha's experience, here, of using the intellect to develop samadhi:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.019.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html
When insight occurs, what is enlightened is the intellect (or sankhara aggregate)
The intellect naturally is not that which does the main work of insight. It is consciousness. But the intellect must supervise consciousness, like a manager supervises an employee
Sabre